What did Vol'jin see in Sylvanas, when he chose her to lead the Horde?

[KrakHed]

I don't know if you would call Bwonsamdi undead himself, though - he's a spirit demigod, and his appearance is essentially a choice on his part.

The guy is probably a Shadowlands Spirit. He's probably undead in one sense or another. The Shadowlands only originated when mortal life did, so presumably it and everything in it exists because things died.

[Zulkhan]

Bwonsamdi has literally raised the dead to fight for him before. It was actually in his very first appearance, and he used them to take Zalazane. The Troll dead are his, so he doesn't like it when they're stolen from him. However, he's just fine with undead that work for him.

If you look at Bwonsamdi himself, and all the spirits that work for him, it's literally impossible for him to hate all undead. He is undead.

Spirits and ghosts are technically "undead" but clearly not the kind of undead the Scourge originated through the Nathrezim's fuckery. Bwonsamdi himself can be easily considered a "spirit" as well. The first are likely perceived as a natural phenomenon, the latter...well, really not.

True, Bwonsamdi used undead himself to take down Zalazane's barrier but that may have been simply necessary, since Zalazane gloated over his barrier's capability of protecting him against all living things.

[KrakHed]

Spirits and ghosts are technically "undead" but clearly not the kind of undead the Scourge originated through the Nathrezim's fuckery. Bwonsamdi himself can be easily considered a "spirit" as well. The first are likely perceived as a natural phenomenon, the latter...well, really not.

True, Bwonsamdi used undead himself to take down Zalazane's barrier but that may have been simply necessary, since Zalazane gloated over his barrier's capability of protecting him against all living things.

I really don't think he cares so long as the dead all come back to him in the end. His dislike for undead is probably that they don't intend to ever die, or are stealing from him. Which of course means he has no reason to like Sylvanas, since she's the type of undead of the first category. Of course, he's a Guardian of the Dead.

He can give Sylvanas a bargain other than personal immortality that would suit her needs. Sylvanas isn't staying alive because she wants to, after all. She wants to die and has wanted to die for awhile, but was punished for it when she actually tried to. She needs a way to die which allows her peace. Ol' Bwonsamdi may be able to help her with that, and maybe even help keep the Forsaken running so long as they all return to death when their time comes as well.

[UnluckyAmateur]

I'm half expecting the loa to berate vol'jin's force ghost and reveal that they didn't tell him to pick her and it was old god shenanigans all along.

[KrakHed]

I'm half expecting the loa to berate vol'jin's force ghost and reveal that they didn't tell him to pick her and it was old god shenanigans all along.

Honestly, I see Sylvanas's story going down one or two ways. One, she dies and gets tortured for eternity. Two, she dies and she doesn't.

Sylvanas is going to die someday. Whether it's a just and deserved end or a culmination of a redemption arc is what makes all the difference. She's a character who is currently only alive because dying is worse. Her reason for living is to not die. It's survival at its most petty and base, which is fine on its own. But no King/Queen rules forever. Everyone dies eventually. This is what's at the core of Sylvanas's current story.

And so she's as good as dead. Maybe not right this moment, maybe not for awhile, but the time will come. And most likely, she'll die in a way that helps unify the Horde. No one wants to repeat Garrosh again, and I don't think they're going to. We see Saurfang and Sylvanas's dispute. He's a bit too death happy, and she's honorless and mocks the very idea of an honorable death.

Chances are that a balance will be reached in the end, and she's going to get that exact thing she mocked.

Of course, this will mean the Horde won't have even a single one of its original leaders left.

[Deleted]

It was Mainly Fan Service. She got nice pixels. and a horny fanbase.
Their in game Lore reason is probaly something like, The Death Loa, wanted as much chaos and death as possible. Or she manipulated some spirit with dark magic.

There is no good reason. She was a interesting charcter, who never was intented to get the spotlight, i see her as a rogueish charcter, not a leader. Her values are oppesite to that of Tauren,Troll and Orcs. Only allines with Goblins as war make a profit, and Who knows how the blood elves see her campaign of plague warfare

[bufferunderrun]

My personal opinion:

Blizzard is using sylvanas to build up the death camp in the war btw gods and supernatural being, we know that nature has the various guardians, order has titan, light has naaru, disorder has demons etc, in that image from chronicles the only "camp" that didn't have gods and agents is the death camp with the shadowlands.

The loa will be the natural counterparts of the nature guardians and sylvanas (with the bolvar-lk as reserve) will be the mortal agent with the shadowlands as their reign.

[Verdugo]

It was Mainly Fan Service. She got nice pixels. and a horny fanbase.
Their in game Lore reason is probaly something like, The Death Loa, wanted as much chaos and death as possible. Or she manipulated some spirit with dark magic.

There is no good reason. She was a interesting charcter, who never was intented to get the spotlight, i see her as a rogueish charcter, not a leader. Her values are oppesite to that of Tauren,Troll and Orcs. Only allines with Goblins as war make a profit, and Who knows how the blood elves see her campaign of plague warfare

Anyone notice that its mainly Alliance being obsessed with those "Nice pixels"?

[RangerDaz]

It was Mainly Fan Service. She got nice pixels. and a horny fanbase.

I really hope it's not JUST that!
Using the Loa's visions as the justification for her nomination as warchief must mean more than just put a hot undead female in front of the horde

[Deianeira]

He says, as if there is even a shred of evidence to the contrary.

I refuse to believe someone like Vol'jin, who is actually good and honorable, would put a nutbar like Sylvanas in charge unless he was deceived.

That is like your opinion man, besides that view is only true IF you think Sylvanas is a nutbar is it not? And no not everyone thinks that she is.

[Mehrunes]

"Da undead be an abominations, but u cool. Wanna do da quests for me"?

It could always be something like Emerald Dragonshrine in Dragonblight. Where Scourge couldn't enter, but Forsaken and DKs could because they were "redeemed".

It means he saw the vision, he didn't "see anything in Sylvanas", which is what the thread title specifies... If the vision was false, he saw nothing in Sylvanas because what he saw isn't really her.

You moved the goalposts to another solar system. And misrepresented the OP on top of that.

[elaina]

PS When people stop comparing everything with GoT? Its mediocore TV Show.

It is also one of the greatest fantasy book series ever. It has pretty much overtaken LoTR in terms of being the benchmark for modern fantasy storytelling.

As for OP, because it was shoehorned by story developers and she was an interesting decision and veteran of the horde. Also polarizing which matters in a faction game. There are in-game reasons but they are likely not as strong as these.

[KrakHed]

Also polarizing which matters in a faction game.

I genuinely don't think the story and fanbase actually benefits from becoming a toxic wasteland of horrid bile. Fans are happier seeing cool shit they like, not things that they hate.

[Schattenlied]

You moved the goalposts to another solar system. And misrepresented the OP on top of that.

No I didn't. The title of the OP said something very specific, I responded to that very specific thing. He didn't see anything other than what the vision wanted him to see.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

He says he never trusted her (which was consistent with how he had been written to that time) and that others won't understand (also consistent), but the Loa were whispering she should be Warchief. Know who else whispers? Old Gods

Varimathras wants us to believe it was all a clever ruse: "Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did."

I think it's also possible the Loa wanted Sylvanas to be Warchief for their purposes, not ours. Who says the Loa want what's best for the Horde or the Alliance?

[Zuben]

Bwonsamdi and the other loa in Zandalar will surely shed some light on it. Though Vol'jin's choice was also backed by how Sylvanas just saved them all in Broken Shore. Maybe we'll learn it was a ploy, like someone said, to get more warfare going, but Vol'jin, for all his faults, wasn't stupid. Perhaps there was a part of him that believed Sylvanas to be a good choice regardless of loa influence. Would be something people generally wouldn't expect, especially since Saurfang too is against Sylvanas's reign. I would love it if the game went all "Surprise motherfuckers, she's actually good for the Horde!"

Possibly not, but I know I'll be shockingly unimpressed if Sylvanas ends up a raid boss or goes through an ultimate sacrifice to "redeem" herself for whatever.

[RangerDaz]

I would love it if the game went all "Surprise motherfuckers, she's actually good for the Horde!"

Possibly not, but I know I'll be shockingly unimpressed if Sylvanas ends up a raid boss or goes through an ultimate sacrifice to "redeem" herself for whatever.

I agree 100%

Having another Garrosh plot will not help the story and the horde's credibility. I really hope blizzard has some secret that should shock us on how Sylvanas was the key for something really important to come. As long as it is not a prophecy like she is the daughter of light and shadow or whatever creepy talks like that one.

[Amaterasu65]

Vol'jin saw sea of salt and thousands of alliance whine-threads. With faint smile he nodded as he thought: "Yes, this will be my last fuck you to this world".

We got trolled.

Trust me, most Alliance players prefer Sylvanas over another typical savage.

[RangerDaz]

No I didn't. The title of the OP said something very specific, I responded to that very specific thing. He didn't see anything other than what the vision wanted him to see.

Guys its ok, no need to be angry with each other if the conversation goes off topic

- - - Updated - - -

Vol'jin saw sea of salt and thousands of alliance whine-threads. With faint smile he nodded as he thought: "Yes, this will be my last fuck you to this world".

We got trolled.

Im not sure if i find that funny or tragic...
After all he has been wow's most famous troll since vanilla


The whole wow community being trolled by the king of trolls... thats somwthing to be remembered!

[Zulkhan]

I really don't think he cares so long as the dead all come back to him in the end. His dislike for undead is probably that they don't intend to ever die, or are stealing from him. Which of course means he has no reason to like Sylvanas, since she's the type of undead of the first category. Of course, he's a Guardian of the Dead.

I suppose it'll be important to then clarify the actual status of the random undead, which is not 100% clear in the current lore. Can Forsaken be virtually immortal by simply taking care of the potential damage endured by their bodies or they are inevitably doomed to die (again) in due time (possibly due to a slow yet relentless process of decay)?

He can give Sylvanas a bargain other than personal immortality that would suit her needs. Sylvanas isn't staying alive because she wants to, after all. She wants to die and has wanted to die for awhile, but was punished for it when she actually tried to. She needs a way to die which allows her peace. Ol' Bwonsamdi may be able to help her with that, and maybe even help keep the Forsaken running so long as they all return to death when their time comes as well.

It's an interesting theory and one I came up with myself long ago.

However, the main issue (at least for the random Forsaken) may not be death (actually, now we even have the Desolate Council and many of its members apparently desiring to "naturally" die) but the exact contrary: birth. Which is something a Loa of Death can realistically do little about. Forsaken may agree to simply die in due time but they remain nonetheless tied to the Val'kyr for "procreation", one that may prove to not be particularly reliable on the considerably long-run (or at least not in their current state, following Sylvanas' failed attempt to get an endless number of them in Stormheim).

No I didn't. The title of the OP said something very specific, I responded to that very specific thing. He didn't see anything other than what the vision wanted him to see.

Visions are not sentient beings. A vision is just a vision. And, as long the concept of either pseudo, semi or actually prophetic visions existed in fiction, "visions" have always been the only conceivable tool to get otherwise impossible insight over anything regarding past, future or distant places, making your stressed point severely flawed.

He says he never trusted her (which was consistent with how he had been written to that time) and that others won't understand (also consistent), but the Loa were whispering she should be Warchief. Know who else whispers? Old Gods

If a Shadow Hunter says the spirits said something, you can bet those spirits are the Loa. Someone who devoted his life to commune with a specific pantheon of gods and demigods is not going to suddenly mistake Old Gods for any of them without the involvement of special events and circumstances getting in the way of that spiritual bond. From what we've seen, there's literally nothing hinting at anything Old God-ish messing with it. Compared to that, there were more chances that the Legion may had somehow done that through the Fel poison. An unlikely theory, sure, but it was something.

Of course, even that theory inevitably plummeted into oblivion with the Burning Legion getting utterly annihilated, clearly before Sylvanas' nomination could serve any purpose to their cause.

Also, "the Loa were whispering she should be Warchief" is pure conjecture right now. We don't even know if the whispered name was the one of Sylvanas. It's entirely possible that the Loa showed something and desired something and Vol'jin ended up making a partially independent decision based on the insight he got. Not really a crazy theory, considered how Vol'jin praised Sylvanas' present actions (saving the Horde from the Broken Shore fiasco) rather than just saying "You really fucking suck but you totally need to become Warchief because muh Loa and muh vision", let alone how Loa spirits belonging to the Troll pantheon have barely any conceivable reason to give two shits about an undead High Elf.

Varimathras wants us to believe it was all a clever ruse: "Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did."

That's the key part. Not only Varimathras was a bitter loser holding a mastodontic grudge on Sylvanas but he immediately proved after this that he actually knew nothing of the circumstances behind her nomination. He literally did nothing but throwing malicious guesses on the wall and see what stuck.

I think it's also possible the Loa wanted Sylvanas to be Warchief for their purposes, not ours. Who says the Loa want what's best for the Horde or the Alliance?

Because Vol'jin was granted a vision of what they saw, like they did in the past. And he clearly went along with that.