[SPOILERS]: Saurfang Stockades Dialogue

[Notshauna]

Last we see, he is asking to speak to Anduin. IF he suspects both sides are being played, he might see this as a chance to reach through the madness. We all know that ultimately the Void is responsible for all of this. The azerite is corrupted. It's just a matter of when and how we find out. Saurfang is suspicious of anything coming out of Silithus. He may be one of the first to see through the whispers.

I swear to god if they pull the whole old gods did it and reset to the same status quo of Alliance and Horde are at kind of peace but they still hate each other I'm going to completely swear off any interest in the story. It's time to end this conflict it was old news 15 years ago, you can't just keep on repeating the same story line without actually accomplishing anything. The entire history of the Alliance and the Horde in WoW can be described in terms of two states, kind of at peace but still hate each other and apocalypticly stupid.

Vanilla: Peace, except all the minor skirmishes
TBC: The same
Wrath: The same until Wrath gate then stupid
Cataclysm: Stupid
MoP: Stupid until SoO
WoD: Peace
Legion: Peace until Broken Shore then stupid.

At least thus far we've managed to actually keep the major war to a time where there is an impending apocalypse, well that is until Azshara shows up and makes it incredibly stupid again. Like in the real world wars don't tend to repeat themselves unless someone gains something, and has there ever been an Alliance versus Horde war since the RTS games where people haven't outright lost things? Like Theramore was lost but it's not like there is a Horde city there it's just a smoking crater.

[Mehrunes]

Because they don't. I mean, even if we get something back its likely taken away from us one expansion later. I mean, we got Dalaran taken away from us, than given back in MoP and than taken again in Legion, this time probably permanently.

And even if your Warchiefs die, you at least get something in between. During all of Cata you were kicking the Alliance asses, won one battle after the other, destroyed tons of Alliance shit and permanently conquered multiple zones. Yeah, compared to that its surely sooooo bad that you have a raid where you fight the Warchief everyone hated and the Horde liberate itself with a little bit assistance of the Alliance and suffers in the end no consequences with the exception of losing a Warchief everyone hated.

First of all, some of those characters you complained about being neutral aren't even neutral and some were never Alliance during WoW. Secondly, whether or not those that do become neutral return to the fold soon doesn't change the fact that they can in the long run. Thirdly, you tried to equalize Horde losing Warchiefs to secondary Alliance leaders going neutral. When, guess what, the Horde lost theirs too! Fourthly, once again, the Horde players don't want to tag along with Alliance heroes going neutral. But they don't have a choice, because they lost way more characters than the Alliance did. If the Horde wasn't lacking characters because they were chopped down in the first place, Alliance characters going neutral wouldn't be necessary.

And Horde was conquering zones in Cata because Blizzard was equalizing the amount of zones. Somehow people complaining about the imminent arrival of HORDE BIAS that will purge this world always forget about that. And Blizzard fixing one of the few actually objective cases of faction bias (which, lo and behold, favored the Alliance) isn't the strong argument you thought it to be.

it gets scary to see how fast they all turned around and now Saurfang is the worst person ever.

You mean after a sudden and colossal shift in his behavior? Who'd have thunk And, given how this is your jab at the idea this is caused because he goes against Sylvanas as you expressed similar sentiment before, also a pile of dishonest nonsense. Again, no one really criticized Saurfang when he threatened Sylvanas in the book preview. I mean, it's dishonest nonsense even just on the merit of pretending that people turning on Saurfang is the gotcha moment you think it is because you decided to ignore the huge change (that's only the whole topic of the thread, so it's totes believable that you missed it), but the Sylvanas aspect only compounds it.

No one ever questions their Hot Topic Goth GF Fantasy, or else.

Same as above. Alas, how else would Alliance players fuel their eternal triggering about Sylvanas existing.

It must seem right when you conveniently simplify it like that and throw out all the history Saurfang has with the Horde.

Shhh, don't interrupt them on their high ground. It'd get too crowded if you climb it.

I honestly hope she will order all the fucking orcs in the next battle Lok'tar Ogar and make them all die for nothing. I think even she is done trying to explain that suicide charges don't win wars. Then we can move on to the thread "Sylvanas ruined Horde! She ordered suicidal orcs that can only charge to charge and suicide since that's the only thing they can do. But she is bad for giving them what they want!"

That'd be actually hilarious. She'd pull a reverse Garrosh and the cannon fodder of her choice would actually want to be cannon fodder.

[Scrysis]

Personally, a little conflict makes the story interesting.

My own prediction is that something happens to Sylvanas, word gets to Saurfang, and then Saurfang busts out of jail to go save the Horde. Sylvanas doesn't even have to die. She could be possessed, kidnapped, straight up disappear, go into a coma, etc.

[Deleted]

Saufangs word should mean nothing, he betrays the Blood Pact he owes the warchief. Breaking the Blood Pact is one of the biggest crimes you can do as an Orc and you would lose all your honor. And Saurfang seems to base his mistrust for Sylvanas on unconfirmed information. Like a lot of people in this forum who example, who seem to have power of foresight, seeing the future already and who know exactly what the story of Christie Goldens book will be and how the destruction of Teldrassil will happen, who will be responsible. Of course Sylvanas has to be the culprit. It couldn't have been the Night Elves themselves, who don't want to see their city falling into the hands of the Horde. Or the servants of Old Gods. No,no,no, it was definitely Sylvanas. Becomes it makes so much sense to waste all these ressources and this position if you want to conquer the whole continent.

Meanwhile he doesn't like her strategies and tactics, whining about them all the time, but he doesn't present tactics and strategies of his own at all, who could bring the Horde the victory in this war. With his tactics, the Horde would lose far more lives.

If Saurfang bases his doubts on unconfirmed things, betrays the warchief because of that and rebelling against the warchief, breaks his Blood Pact, brings more devision into the Horde while the Horde is fighting a war with the Alliance, making the Horde more vulnerable for Alliance attacks, thus losing more Horde lives, he is a damn traitor and a fool. Not someone other Orcs or anybody should look up to or have respect for. If Blizzard portrays him like that, he is nothing more than a confused old Orc obsessed with his own "honorable" Death, not giving a damn about what happens to others.

[Dalheim]

and where does he say he did the killing? Im looking for where it is from but i think it was in WoD where it mentioned him killing an orc who had just killed a draenei child.
it was telmor if i reemmber...
was durotan not ogrim got it.

No, Durotan refused to kill a draenei child that clung to him during the attack on Telmor, but a Shattered Hand (I think) orc killed it for him. It was used in the War Crimes novel where they showed that orcs, as a whole, arent dishonorable, because they showed that Durotan had tears in his eyes when the child was killed.

[steelballfc]

one more twist like this to not buy this expansion

[Mehrunes]

Character development bruh, character development.

Which deflects from Saurfang being blinded by honor how, exactly? This IS his character development. He wasn't a Broxigar clone before and was a much more reasonable character. The Saurfang family defect activated in him only in recent years.

How do we all think those Draenor orcs join the Horde later? Because someone writes them a letter? Surely not. I'm sure Saurfang gets them to join (which isn't confirmed, ofc, I'll give you that.) And I don't think the orc-population of another planet joining the Horde is something the Alliance is looking forward to, so I am quite sure Saurfang isn't out to do the Alliance a favor. And in Stormwind he is not as far away from the Dark Portal as he'd be if he took the route via Zandalar (again, which was suggested as the better route for him to take in that situation).

So again, I don't think he is turning traitor and I do think he is going to re-join the Horde with reinforcements and then challenge Sylvanas. And he then even has grounds to argue, because if he actually took what she said to heart, then he knows she is at least kind of right and they don't have enough people for the kinds of plans he comes up with. Even if he disagrees with her methods, he must know that part is true.

Except Saurfang has no link to the AU Orcs. He spent the entire WoD campaign in the garrison organizing its activities. Even Liadrin has more exposure to actual Draenor Orcs than him. Nay, even Dark Ranger Velonara does. So why would they care about a greenskin from another planet that only interacted with some Frostwolves in the garrison? Let alone to the point they'd be willing to follow him against the leader of the faction they just joined? And the most true part of what Sylvanas told him is that his "honor" stems from him underestimating and idolizing death, about which he personally knows squat about. And that following this "honor" only squanders Horde forces, whereas Horde is worth saving and its forces are to be used wisely. Somehow he didn't take that part to heart at all.

[Zuben]

Reminds me of Drek'thar from Cata-vamped Hillsbrad. Saurfang's been our boy for a long time, but he isn't infallible. The earlier datamines showed him as reckless, seeking death in combat. He could be blinded by it. An old orc so set in his ways he can't comprehend their complicated world doesn't always accommodate orcish honor; compromises must be made in dire times, practicality is what ensures the survival of what you want to protect.

This is a very interesting time for Horde's lore. I'm worried its development might still stumble on the same old shit we've seen Horde go through already, but if Blizz takes it to the path where Saurfang is actually wrong would do more for Warcraft than any lore-development before. It's silly to pit Sylvanas's ways and Saurfang's ways against each other and declare Saurfang right because he's Saurfang and said apparent words of wisdom with conviction.

There's a big example in the game of morals/honor being in the wrong: Illidan's choice in Black Rook Hold during War of the Ancients. Everyone else on the scene condemned it, because it was horrifying, but it was also necessary. They would've all been wiped out had Illidan not sacrificed the Moon Guard. Had it been Saurfang, he'd have chosen to fight conventionally and lose, while Sylvanas would've made the same choice as Illidan and ensured most of them lived to fight another day. Lor'themar mused a similar thought pattern in the final paragraph of his shortstory, difference to Sylvanas being he was lucid to the reality of how dark the necessary path can be. Sylvanas is uncaring of the darkness, which can be off-putting to those who consider it something relevant, but even so she chooses effective action over pointless posturing. No faction joins a war with intent to lose honorably.

It's true Sylvanas is eligible to go too far at some point, which is why it's important she's accompanied by a counterforce she respects. Saurfang would be that perfectly if he'd just compromise his honor a bit. He says he's loyal to the Horde. He should show it rather than running away.

[Mehrunes]

I don't like how this looks so far. Sure, it makes sense that Sylvanas has some opposition too when everybody was up in arms against Garrosh, but actually abandoning the Horde when it was at war? That's too much. The guy is old, I get that. Can't orcs retire?

No. When Orcs grow old the "honor" part of their brain is affected by a degenerative brain disease afflicting the entire race that switches their perception of honor from actual honor to "I must die in battle no matter what". Orcs evolved that way because resources were scarce and drones that could no longer take care of themselves would kill themselves in this way for the good of the hive.

[OIS]

No. When Orcs grow old the "honor" part of their brain is affected by a degenerative brain disease afflicting the entire race that switches their perception of honor from actual honor to "I must die in battle no matter what". Orcs evolved that way because resources were scarce and drones that could no longer take care of themselves would kill themselves in this way for the good of the hive.

From the looks of what happened so far it can happen to them at any age, I mean, look at Nazgrim. God, I don't know who is being more foolish at this point, the orcs or the writers at Blizzard. I was so stoked for this expansion, the faction war restarting and all that. Why is waging war so wrong in a game called Warcraft, I have no idea. I've read the Art of War, sure, the best war is one that you don't have to fight but this is a video game man, let's kill them already, burn them to ash come onnn GRRR

[Arrashi]

No. When Orcs grow old the "honor" part of their brain is affected by a degenerative brain disease afflicting the entire race that switches their perception of honor from actual honor to "I must die in battle no matter what". Orcs evolved that way because resources were scarce and drones that could no longer take care of themselves would kill themselves in this way for the good of the hive.

So its like those fungi that make ants go to some high place to die and release spores ? Sweet jesus.

[Friendlyimmolation]

So its like those fungi that make ants go to some high place to die and release spores ? Sweet jesus.

It all goes back to podlings

[Qualia]

Saufangs word should mean nothing, he betrays the Blood Pact he owes the warchief. Breaking the Blood Pact is one of the biggest crimes you can do as an Orc and you would lose all your honor. And Saurfang seems to base his mistrust for Sylvanas on unconfirmed information. Like a lot of people in this forum who example, who seem to have power of foresight, seeing the future already and who know exactly what the story of Christie Goldens book will be and how the destruction of Teldrassil will happen, who will be responsible. Of course Sylvanas has to be the culprit. It couldn't have been the Night Elves themselves, who don't want to see their city falling into the hands of the Horde. Or the servants of Old Gods. No,no,no, it was definitely Sylvanas. Becomes it makes so much sense to waste all these ressources and this position if you want to conquer the whole continent.

What "unconfirmed information" are you talking about? From what we know, he is unhappy with Sylvanas' decisions / mindset - the one she took when he was right next to her. We have the datamined dialogue of Sylvanas and Saurfang arguing with each other during BfL on at least two different occasions, and him seemingly disappeared at the end (this is probably when he stayed behind while the rest were retreating - probably to to cover for them, or to die honorable, or both).

In regards to the destruction of Teldrassil - it wouldn't matter who directly burned the tree. What matters was that Sylvanas attacked the NE and created a chance for it. If the NE didn't want their home to fall into Sylvanas and burn the tree? It would be her fault for attacking and cornering them. If the Twilight cultists made use of the occasions and sneaked in a bomb? It'd still be Sylvanas fault for creating that opening (+ the cultists). If the tree just suddenly burn itself due to some random natural disaster? Sylvanas is still to blame as her attack prevented the NE from healing / stopping it. The moment we know Sylvanas assaulted the NE, she is to blame for the destruction of Teldrassil that would come shortly after. There might be some others who need to share the blame depends on the scenario, but it doesn't matter much unless Sylvanas was attacking Teldrassil in an attempt to *save* it, which we knows isn't the case.

[Mehrunes]

In regards to the destruction of Teldrassil - it wouldn't matter who directly burned the tree. What matters was that Sylvanas attacked the NE and created a chance for it. If the NE didn't want their home to fall into Sylvanas and burn the tree? It would be her fault for attacking and cornering them. If the Twilight cultists made use of the occasions and sneaked in a bomb? It'd still be Sylvanas fault for creating that opening (+ the cultists). If the tree just suddenly burn itself due to some random natural disaster? Sylvanas is still to blame as her attack prevented the NE from healing / stopping it. The moment we know Sylvanas assaulted the NE, she is to blame for the destruction of Teldrassil that would come shortly after. There might be some others who need to share the blame depends on the scenario, but it doesn't matter much unless Sylvanas was attacking Teldrassil in an attempt to *save* it, which we knows isn't the case.

That's like saying that when someone breaks into your home and you kill all your family because you won't let the burglar take them alive it's the burglar's fault that they're dead. The other examples are burdened by similar lapses in how guilt works.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I swear to god if they pull the whole old gods did it and reset to the same status quo of Alliance and Horde are at kind of peace but they still hate each other I'm going to completely swear off any interest in the story. It's time to end this conflict it was old news 15 years ago, you can't just keep on repeating the same story line without actually accomplishing anything. The entire history of the Alliance and the Horde in WoW can be described in terms of two states, kind of at peace but still hate each other and apocalypticly stupid.

Vanilla: Peace, except all the minor skirmishes
TBC: The same
Wrath: The same until Wrath gate then stupid
Cataclysm: Stupid
MoP: Stupid until SoO
WoD: Peace
Legion: Peace until Broken Shore then stupid.

At least thus far we've managed to actually keep the major war to a time where there is an impending apocalypse, well that is until Azshara shows up and makes it incredibly stupid again. Like in the real world wars don't tend to repeat themselves unless someone gains something, and has there ever been an Alliance versus Horde war since the RTS games where people haven't outright lost things? Like Theramore was lost but it's not like there is a Horde city there it's just a smoking crater.

The whole conflict is considered the natural state of WoW, which after all stands for "World of Warcraft". I don't think the faction war is ever supposed to end. If they wanted it to end, Baine would have become Warchief. The whole reason for making Sylvanas Warchief was to set up the Sylvanas/Genn drama and add fresh life to the conflict.

- - - Updated - - -

That's like saying that when someone breaks into your home and you kill all your family because you won't let the burglar take them alive it's the burglar's fault that they're dead. The other examples are burdened by similar lapses in how guilt works.

Sylvanas attacks the Night Elves because she wants to purge Kalimdor of all that isn't Horde. People are already dying because of her decisions; no further justification is needed to declare her at fault.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't like how this looks so far. Sure, it makes sense that Sylvanas has some opposition too when everybody was up in arms against Garrosh, but actually abandoning the Horde when it was at war? That's too much. The guy is old, I get that. Can't orcs retire?

Saurfang will never abandon the Horde. He just disagrees with Sylvanas on what's best for it.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas attacks the Night Elves because she wants to purge Kalimdor of all that isn't Horde. People are already dying because of her decisions; no further justification is needed to declare her at fault.

Except given how different actions being indeed different is a concept that actually exists, no.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Except given how different actions being indeed different is a concept that actually exists, no.

Different yeah, but not much better. It's ethnic cleansing, either way.

[Unholyground]

Just so people know they are setting up a plot device to explain why Sylvanas will leave the Horde possibly with Nathanos to train Dark Rangers for both factions.

It has been coming for some time, it is one of the classes that would fit well, Ranged/Stealth hybrid class with a melee spec and crazy life stealing spells.

[Shampro]

Sylvanas attacks the Night Elves because she wants to purge Kalimdor of all that isn't Horde. People are already dying because of her decisions; no further justification is needed to declare her at fault.

.

That whole thing dialog was changed, are you aware of that? She doesn't want Teldrassil to be a sustainable port of Azerite for the Alliance and makes it clear that the war is already well in progress, it seems like you're not up to date.

[Ishimada]

I could see this as kinda close to MoP Garrosh story, but with pretty much many, many differences.

I could see this as a chance for a change of heart for Sylvanas at the end or mid-end of the expansion, and she truly learns the meaning of honor, that the rest of the Horde has been following since their early days.