Is this guild's leadership bad, or am I wrong in this?

[Sting]

Confirmed shitter. Git gud

As spoken by somebody with zero logs and max ilvl 913, omegalul

[Cariboulou]

Actually 6/11 at this point is precisely what I would describe as a heroic guid that steps into mythic after it has been nerfed closer to their level. Which (even though my pervious sentence may not sound like it) I'm completely fine with, but how you guys do things has little to do with how a serious mythic guild runs its shop, because the goals are different. It's two different worlds.

By what logic is 6/11m a heroic guild? Considering at this time we only run heroic once a week with mostly alts.
Your definition of what a mythic guild is =/= what it actually is.
Tryharding with "running the shop" is just unnecessary when you can just as easily do it as we do.
Don't act like managing a guild is something hard to do, and that you need all kinds of specific roles in the guild to do that.

[Alphatorg]

By what logic is 6/11m a heroic guild? Considering at this time we only run heroic once a week with mostly alts.
Your definition of what a mythic guild is =/= what it actually is.
Tryharding with "running the shop" is just unnecessary when you can just as easily do it as we do.
Don't act like managing a guild is something hard to do, and that you need all kinds of specific roles in the guild to do that.

By the logic that these guilds need heavy nerfs to kill bosses, let alone dream of clearing. I mean sure, technically you could call anyone who kills Garothi a mythic guild, but that's why I added the word "serious".
Some people enjoy a casual approach, and they are of course entitled to feel that way, but there are also a lot of people who strive for efficiency and once you have a certain kind of ambition as a raid a lot of management issues arise. Whether or not these issues take a lot of skill to solve is of course debatable, but at the very least they cost lots and lots of time, every raid and every week.

[zeoos]

The guild seems shitty. My guild did it like this for Gul'Dan:

It was announced before getting the kill that every single person that participated in the kill of the boss will be allowed to roll.
Because our guild is very friendly, the first drop we decided (we the raiders) to give to the Raid Leader. We rolled, and the person that won just traded it to the Raid Leader.
Since then, allmost all the raiders got their mount, the GM and the officers didn't make a fuss about it because they knew that eventually, everyone will get it.

Perhaps for Antorus, this is different because it's the last Raid Tier and it's a limited time before you get it. But to announce publicly that the GM>RL>Officers>CR>Raiders will get it just seems unfair and will definitely bring down the guild (if it hasn't allready, just read a few pages of the thread).

[Cariboulou]

By the logic that these guilds need heavy nerfs to kill bosses, let alone dream of clearing. I mean sure, technically you could call anyone who kills Garothi a mythic guild, but that's why I added the word "serious".
Some people enjoy a casual approach, and they are of course entitled to feel that way, but there are also a lot of people who strive for efficiency and once you have a certain kind of ambition as a raid a lot of management issues arise. Whether or not these issues take a lot of skill to solve is of course debatable, but at the very least they cost lots and lots of time, every raid and every week.

Antorus hasn't had any heavy nerfs though.
A heroic guild is still a guild that raids heroic, a mythic guild is a guild that raids mythic. There's of course different levels of hardcore/casual, but you can't just go around and change the meanings of words.

[Alphatorg]

Antorus hasn't had any heavy nerfs though.
A heroic guild is still a guild that raids heroic, a mythic guild is a guild that raids mythic. There's of course different levels of hardcore/casual, but you can't just go around and change the meanings of words.

Ilvl and pantheon trinkets have made people's output skyrocket since release.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

For us the reward was progression. The mount is simply rolled off.

[Cariboulou]

Ilvl and pantheon trinkets have made people's output skyrocket since release.

That's called gear progression, not nerfs. Thinking like that, the only true mythic guilds are the ones who cleared Antorus in the first few weeks.

[Deleted]

Their guild, obey the rules or leave, I'm not sure why you need a forum to make up your own mind regarding something that only affects you and their guild.

In most guilds the mounts for example only go to those that were part of progression or sense of importance.

In my own guild it's rolled out for everyone that progressed the boss, I wouldn't mind officers/gms getting it first they put in a lot of work in general.

[slime]

If you do leave or protest, make sure they know why. Personally I would be online during raid - and decline the invite. Let them know you are making the choice to sit out. - Let them kick you if they want.

[Alphatorg]

That's called gear progression, not nerfs. Thinking like that, the only true mythic guilds are the ones who cleared Antorus in the first few weeks.

How is "you deal 50%" more damage any different from "Bosshp nerfed by 50%"? The only difference is that it's not spelled out for the players and that it's progressive.
And sure, guilds who clear a raid within a week are on a different level than the rest - obviously. At what point bosses become completely trivialized is of course debatable. But I find it hard to put into the same bracket a guild that kills Imonar in March and guilds that killed Imonar within their first week of progression, with 15-25 ilvl less, without pantheon trinkets and with just a three day schedule.

[Cariboulou]

How is "you deal 50%" more damage any different from "Bosshp nerfed by 50%"? The only difference is that it's not spelled out for the players and that it's progressive.
And sure, guilds who clear a raid within a week are on a different level than the rest - obviously. At what point bosses become completely trivialized is of course debatable. But I find it hard to put into the same bracket a guild that kills Imonar in March and guilds that killed Imonar within their first week of progression, with 15-25 ilvl less, without pantheon trinkets and with just a three day schedule.

I'm not debating the levels guild are on. I'm just asking, where's your breakpoint? Is everyone who cleared Mythic Antorus before getting their Pantheon trinket the only "true" mythic guilds? 960? 945? You're too vague.

[Alphatorg]

I'm not debating the levels guild are on. I'm just asking, where's your breakpoint? Is everyone who cleared Mythic Antorus before getting their Pantheon trinket the only "true" mythic guilds? 960? 945? You're too vague.

To me personally, Aggramar and Argus are the only bosses that still feel like mythic raiding, at current gear levels.

[xcitng]

Meh why shouldn't the people who have kept the guild afloat, doing all the work and not just showing up get rewarded?

[Alphatorg]

Disagree and here’s why:

If you asked any raider in that guild what their goals are, none of them would say “Dude, I want to kill heroic as fast as possible. Then the rest is all gravy.” They’re in it for the challenge of mythic.

Yes they aren’t that hardcore, but that’s totally fine. It’s only been 4 months and we’ve got a long time to go before the next raid.

I find their way of progressing as far more satisfying than the people who spend countless hours prepping ahead of time so they can clear the raid as fast as possible then sit on their hands. Prep is boring. Watching fatboss or reading dungeon journals makes my eyes bleed. And all it does is shorten progression, the most fun part of the game. Who cares about wowprogress anyway?

What motivates those raiders is mythic. Heroic is a speed bump.

I'm sorry, but that sounds mildly delusional. On that pace by the time you get to encounters they have been thoroughly gutted by nerfs and if it weren't the last tier of the the expansion then the next raid release would be right around the corner, before you even get to any of the ecounters that are juicy (or at least were at some point). You never actually get the challenge of mythic.
You also seem to have some serious misconceptions about others guilds, no regular raider spends countless hours on preparation and some people would also rather say that they eyes bleed from watching the ADHD moron wipe the raid on the simplest of mechanics because he couldn't look up the boss for 5 minutes. But that's just personal preference I guess.

[BananaHandsB]

The officer core puts far more time and effort into keeping the guild going and actually making that kill happen than all the other members. If all they ask for that is a mount, I think that is fair. Want to run a guild, recruit members, setup strats, lead the raid, deal with drama, etc, etc, etc, etc (the list goes WAY on), then try making your own guild and see if you can clear a mythic raid with it. It's a ton of work. Most of it is not fun. Most officers would rather spend their time playing wow than dealing with the numerous things it takes to lead a guild to a full mythic clear. After all that, for them to ask for a mount, isn't asking a lot. How do you expect them to keep people coming for week after week after the argus kill. They know that isn't realistic. Let them have their mounts for leading you to a kill that takes a TON of work. Try leading a guild to a mythic clear and you'll understand, this isn't unreasonable.

[KaPe]

How is "you deal 50%" more damage any different from "Bosshp nerfed by 50%"? The only difference is that it's not spelled out for the players and that it's progressive.
And sure, guilds who clear a raid within a week are on a different level than the rest - obviously. At what point bosses become completely trivialized is of course debatable. But I find it hard to put into the same bracket a guild that kills Imonar in March and guilds that killed Imonar within their first week of progression, with 15-25 ilvl less, without pantheon trinkets and with just a three day schedule.

Well, for a start, math doesn't work that way. 50% more dps means boss has 33% less hitpoints.

Second of all, you conveniently "forgot" to mention that ilvl differences between top guilds and typical mythic guilds are lower than ever, thanks to Titanforging - which also greatly boosts the benefit of split runs - and legendaries. No one is doing 50% more damage than Method did on their first kill - even if their gear would allow that, they can never stack the raid to the same degree. Argus P1 still has a very real dps check for new players that has not been trivialized in any way.

And last but not least - this is the first raid in a long while that didn't have a single nerf after being up for several months. Argus P3 change is hardly a straight nerf and nothing else has been touched... If anything, Varimathras was buffed by fixing some cheesy immunity strat. The trinket itself is nowhere near comparable to WoD ring, so it didn't trivialize anything on its' own.

[keedorin]

I could kind of understand this a bit. The GM, RL, and 2 officers have probably been there since the beginning. Leading a guild isn't all that easy. They work the hardest and deserve the mount more. That's just how things should be. I'm sure, as a guild, they want everyone to get the mounts, but there's definitely a possiblity of burnout. The higher the ranks means the less chance of them quitting for the following re-kills, so I can understand the priority system. I would be mad too if you gave a mount to someone and they leave for a higher rank guild for the next expac (I've personally seen this happen at the end of WoD.)

[vsb]

I personally don't care about mounts at all. When I was RL, everyone rolled on those mounts and when I won one, I just gifted it to the guy who really wanted it, so I think that you're making drama out of nowhere.

[Alphatorg]

Well, for a start, math doesn't work that way. 50% more dps means boss has 33% less hitpoints.

Second of all, you conveniently "forgot" to mention that ilvl differences between top guilds and typical mythic guilds are lower than ever, thanks to Titanforging - which also greatly boosts the benefit of split runs - and legendaries. No one is doing 50% more damage than Method did on their first kill - even if their gear would allow that, they can never stack the raid to the same degree. Argus P1 still has a very real dps check for new players that has not been trivialized in any way.

And last but not least - this is the first raid in a long while that didn't have a single nerf after being up for several months. Argus P3 change is hardly a straight nerf and nothing else has been touched... If anything, Varimathras was buffed by fixing some cheesy immunity strat. The trinket itself is nowhere near comparable to WoD ring, so it didn't trivialize anything on its' own.

Yeah, I didn't think through the numbers, you've got me. But that doesn't change the principle.

You're completely wrong on titanforging though, because TF is foremost another progressive nerf mechanism: you don't loot all them 980 items in your first two IDs, you acquire them over weeks of farming. Method for example started their progression with 955 ilvl and some random world 3000 guild has 970 ilvl at this point.
If you skim through a couple of top players on warcraftlogs you will also see that they actually do have that 50% (and more) damage increase between their first kill and now on a patchwerk boss like Worldbreaker.

I don't really get your Argus argument either. In terms of mechanics that encounter is basically a joke in the first two phases. At this point you can meet all the DPS checks with one or two dead people in p1 and half the raid dead in p2 after which you get a free raid ress. The only thing remotely tight about it are the dmg race and chains in p3 and ilvl is a straight up and effective nerf to anything that's difficult there. You get more DPS to make the enrage timer and you get more stamina and HPS to deal with chains. Compared to some other end bosses it's already an "easy" encounter.