Don't think I can do another expansion long grind

[Tradu]

what? Or you have like 20 alts and just get one legendary a day on average because of the essences?

12 characters I actively play, 1 of each class. So yeah, just over one a day just from essences.

[kamuimac]

There... there's no content for the casual crowd? Why? What casual content did other expansions have that Legion doesn't?

Also, if it's really destined to fall, it's the fault of the players - you could always just find yourself a guild or group of players who are in your 'bracket', meaning having the same interest and roughly the same amount of time available.

we are in 2018 not 2004 - guilds are nothing but relics of past , wow is one of very few games which focuses content so heavily on organized groups and even blizzard is copying solutions made in FF14 by making people focus on making bonds cross realm instead in guilds because they see themselves that current payerbase dont want to play like this..

[IceMan1763]

This 100 times. I have all 12 at 110 and all 12 have a 75 max out weapon, with most characters I just kill the 2 world bosses and do a few wq's to replenish my mission resources. There is no grind, it was a illusion (outside of the 1%)

Yeah I'm sure leveling 12 different 110's and keeping all of those artifacts up to date was easy, right? Even if we give you credit for being super fast and put a half hour per week per character into those described activities that's still 6 hours a week just for your character maintenance. It's been 80 weeks since the launch of Legion. That's 480 hours into just the maintenance of those characters to keep them somewhat viable. The thing is though, I think you're highly under exaggerating and don't realize just how much you play this game if you think maintaining 12 characters in Legion is not grindy.

To make sure we're being accurate here, I'd like you to come back and post the /played at 110 of all 12 of those characters so we can do some real calculations to see just how "not grindy" Legion is. I'm sorry, but I can't take anecdotal data from someone when it comes to this because I think there's a real motivation on the part of fanbois to under estimate their play time, so I need your real numbers or I simply don't believe you.

[andy123456]

not sure about expansion before legion, but legion do includes lot of grinding. Bought more than 150 relinquish token,got same trinket multiple times(with titan/warforged) but no Unstable Arcanocrystal yet.
I may be late , but i think greedy blizz made amanthul drop rate so low , so that people will remain subscribing till bfa comes , in the hope of getting amanthul.
my main is hunter and it has only one pantheon trinket , still getting panthen blessing even after my trinket is 1000, what the hell i am supposed to do with extra , sell it to vendor for 1 copper each ??.
collected all leggo of my class and i am getting leggo tokens of classes even when i have no characters of that class.
Good for me not pre purchased BFA , if bfa do contains this much grinding , well legion will be my first and last wow expansion.

[IceMan1763]

There is so many flaws to it though with stuff like appearances, swapping weapons, enchants, active effects like the mount and such, who actually unlocks it then?

How you actually approach all that throws in other spanners like if everyone unlocks it at the same time how does it work with new recruits or people who had to sit out for a bit etc. Who got to use it outside of raids, what happens if 2 people unlock it all that kind of stuff. It would be a bit messy but none the less it would have been a nice way for them to work.

Appearances only happened with Legion's version of Legendaries so I don't know why they would have to continue moving forward and if we're talking about rewriting history then appearances weren't a thing when the legendary system had a poaching issue. Besides, why would moving back to a "one legendary per raid tier" system have to not include different appearances? Just make them cool, but optional, raid quests (just like getting the legendary in the first place) and whomever has the weapon checked out gets to pick the appearance.

I think in regard to enchants you just make the weapon (or piece of armor) good enough to be great without any enchant (in other words, it's not enchantable in the first place). Option B would be to create a system to enchant the weapon for free when you check it out. Option C would be to just let people enchant it over and over. You have to think that with the staff from FL for example, all the people checking it out would likely want the same enchant anyway. I prefer just making up for the fact that it's not enchantable by making it better by approximately the amount the enchant would improve it.

How does it work? Well now we're getting into what is really the development team's job. I think of it this way... imagine, instead of putting 1000s of valuable development hours into creating 50 some legendary items and balancing them all expansion long (and dealing with the fallout of over half their playerbase HATING something meant to be an attractive feature of the expansion), they had put those hours into my suggested legendary system? I think they could have addressed some of the pitfalls you're mentioning and come up with a system which certainly would have been better than Legiondaries.

I'm not trying to avoid what are answerable questions and concerns though, so I'll do my level best in the few spare minutes I have to type this since I don't get a paycheck from Blizzard and they would never do something as lowly as to listen to a player's ideas anyway:

Q: Why a guild hall?
A: Because I think they would be cool, first of all. The guild community in general has really fallen off a cliff with the introduction of LFR and simplfication of the end raiding game in both LFR and normal difficulties. At their best, they could be a hangout to help strengthen the guild bond and cool features like screenshots of big kills on the walls would create a fantastic personal touch and visible history of the guild. Secondly, I think a guild hall would be almost necessary with the need to tie ownership of the legendary to the guild and not an individual player.

Q: Who unlocks the legendary quest?
A: I think it should start/unlock within the guild hall. I also think the quest should only be advancable in heroic or mythic raids. Originally I suggested having the ability to have multiple legendaries for mega guilds, but I've rethought that as I think it comes with too many problems. I think the best way to handle it would be a guild wide "turn in type" quest where you collect items from the instance and turn them in within the guild hall until you have enough to complete that part of the quest (the amount you could turn in would need to have an overall or rolling cap). On the other side, individual players would also "attune" themselves in order to be able to wield the weapon. For weapons or armor clearly targeting one class or even one role (DPS, tank, heals) the attunement quest could be much like the 36 or so quests they made for every spec to acquire your artifact in Legion, except perhaps involving the raid instance at some point to tie in to the story. Any way you slice it... they could make those quests interesting if they wanted and they CLEARLY have the resources for it since they did 36 similar quest lines for Legion. Another option would be to just have individual attunement quests for the legendary and skip the guild part (like WOD). However, you don't "get" the weapon when you finish the quest, you "get" the ability to wield it. However, only one is allowed to be "checked out" per instance.

Q: What happens when multiple people "unlock" the weapon at the same time?
A: I firmly believe there should only be one legendary allowed in any raid instance with this type of system. That's very important for balancing, in my opinion. New recruits or people who sit for a while will be fine once they get attuned (or if they were attuned before their break) to be able to use the weapon.

Q: Who gets to use it outside of raids?
A: This might be unpopular, but my answer is honestly nobody does. Legendaries don't belong in PVP nor does a lot of PVE gear, in my opinion. You don't need legendaries for any other content in WOW (maybe M+ but they could just tune them assuming no legendaries will be present, which actually makes the job of tuning M+ easier). No legendaries in M+ also means people who dedicate much of their play time to those and don't raid won't be at a disadvantage just because they choose not to raid. The same should be true for PVP players... they should not have a big disadvantage because they choose not to raid. I think the "one legendary per instance" rule also probably works best if the "checkout" happens inside of the raid instance (think of it like if you checked out ShadowMourne from Tirion at the start of ICC). With the checkout happening inside the instance, the fact that the legendary only works in there makes more sense. It also allows a simple rule of "not in instance, legendary gets checked back in". This gives RLs the power to boot someone from the raid who checked out the weapon when they weren't supposed to. After a short period of time outside the raid instance (a minute or two maybe), the weapon is checked back in and you're good to go. This could be the method all expansion long as well... imagine if Tirion allowed you to check out both the healing mace and Shadowmourne. The other element that should be exciting to people about this is that it allows Legendaries to have really cool and powerful abilities. In fact, fights (especially later bosses) could be designed around using the ability. Imagine a priest staff in BFA that casts a bubble like the one Aduin casts in the trailer, or a bow that turns your character shadowy and has a "wraith strike" type of ability that Sylvanas uses in the trailer. These type of extremely powerful abilities can't be introduced right now without upsetting the balance of everything.

Anyway, this got much longer than I thought but I hope you see that your concerns are all addressable and, in the end, I think this type of system would be superior to anything they've done before.

- - - Updated - - -

/played for the 12 is 170 days over Legion (my 1st time in WoW) give or take a day with 150 being across 3 characters. For example my priest has <3 days played (was boosted too 100) and has a 75 weapon, has never been in a dungeon or a raid (out side a couple of LFR's). I never said I didn't play a lot ,I do. My point is I've never felt Legion was a grind, there is no requirement to have a 75 weapon if you are casual. Nothing in Legion (for non competitive raiders) is required, hence there is no grind.

TLDR - I grinded the fuck out of this xpac.. literally playing the game 30% of my waking hours over a year and a half. It's not grindy though, I swear!!

PS - If you read my posts in particular, I talk constantly about how this was the most grindy expansion EVER if you wanted to be even a remotely competitive raider. Also, the way gear/AP/Legiondaries worked in this xpac it didn't just affect mythic raiding... it dribbled down to at least heroic as well. The "it only affects 1%" line is the kind of excuse a fanboi who spends 1/3 of his 24 hours a day playing the game would make. The same kind of fanboi who plays the game that much then comes on the forums and says "it's not grindy". LOL get a reality check man!!!

[reauxmont]

we are in 2018 not 2004 - guilds are nothing but relics of past , wow is one of very few games which focuses content so heavily on organized groups and even blizzard is copying solutions made in FF14 by making people focus on making bonds cross realm instead in guilds because they see themselves that current payerbase dont want to play like this..

Sorry man, I don't see it. I like consuming content with an organized group, aka guild. It's pretty much what makes WoW for me. I wasn't forced to bond with anyone from a different realm.

[ItachiZaku]

I really only come back for Tarren Mill vs Southshore. When I have a sub (like I do now), I only seem to log in for maybe 30 minutes. Once in awhile I'll actually do something, but the game hasn't really changed in 10 years and it's just rather meh anymore.

[Wries]

Grinding AP isn't a thing anymore, is it? It was in 7.0 with the set 20 paragon levels which significantly boosted your power. Now when you've reached 75 (which doesn't take long what with Argus leaving AP tokens left and right) you can pretty much chill.

My UI doesn't display the artifact-power-is-xp bar that seems to be in the default UI. I think that helps.

[Daffan]

I see where your coming from OP, but from a different angle -- this game is already extremely casual.

In fact, this game doesn't really make any sense for most people anymore.

You grind, and grind and ... for what? next patch they just give you welfare gear with titanforge and AP boosts anyway so everything you did was pretty much a waste. The only time actually investing big time into this game is worth it is if you are raiding Heroic for the entire expansion or Mythic.

Doesn't help that the majority of content is made obsolete before most people even complete it (LFR doesn't count as completion) lmao.

And your asking for it to be even more casual? Casual is the exact reason many, many things in this game are a complete waste of time. It's so casual that for the majority of the playerbase, your better off not playing the game at all and letting the patch releases boost your character.

[Soon-TM]

Legion has been great, and I mean great, for casuals. Now, the more hardcore you are, the more cancerous it becomes. Nothing like entering a Mythic raid and realizing that 95% of the loot is useless

[Deleted]

I loved World of Warcraft all through WOTLK, Cata, Pandaria and WOD and I never thought I would find it annoying or frustrating. Sadly, this happened with Legion. I used to like just being able to log on and do some dailies, a daily heroic dungeon with friends for valour points and the odd night raiding with my guild.

Now the game doesn't feel as free and easy as it used to with the introduction of expansion long grinds. Nowadays you grind and grind and then in the next patch Blizzard resets the grind and you grind some more. I sure did a lot of that in Legion watching that silly little bar move or not move when I clicked on a artefact power token. In it end I felt so stupid and depressed clicking on the token with a 2 second cast and then bar didn't even visibly move. Sure there are ways that allow you to catch up nearly each patch but they still involve grinding and then if you want to keep on being competitive you have to keep on grinding.

I know what people are going to say, I don't have to grind. But of course there is Keen Kevin or Dedicated Dan that is grinding out all evening and if you want to roll with them and don't want to be left behind when it comes to choosing partners in M+ or raid teams then you sort of have to grind to compete and not get shelved.

The whole thing was I enjoyed the casualness of the game, not having to do much to be viable in raids or whatever. I think that Blizzard underestimates the importance of that because people who have grown with the game are now much older and have more responsibilities and can't dedicate time to grinding so much. Plus grinding is not innovative game play, just repeating the same thing over and over and it breeds frustration and burn out. Oh look the harpies need killing the woods again! Some little narrative from someone about it, Same mobs needing to be killed, just did it yesterday and while I was levelling but oh lets do it again for 30th time!

I'm so depressed. I bought BFA with in game gold but I really don't know if I'm going to bother to sub again and play it with this new azurite grind. Sure it's only three circles at the moment but don't you worry Blizzard will be adding more circles to grind as the expansion moves along I'm 100% sure of that. I've been unsubbed for a few weeks now and I feel so free not thinking about all the stuff I have to do in game with the grind.

RNG was another big headache and I'm sure that's not going away next expansion either. Oh look RNGesus gave me another pair of pants this week from the M+ chest with slightly better stats but 10 ilvls lower! Yay not!

I really really want to love WOW again but it's just slipping away from me with all the meta changes, does anyone else feel like that? Anyone else actually quit because of the changes?

About blizzard adding more "circles" to grind, that is not the way azurite will be working, blizzard already explained it. Basically your necklace azurite level will determine the amount of circles you can unlock on gear, however the azurite level for each "circle" will be determined by the item level of the gear piece. So for example(using numbers completely pulled out of my a**): if you have azurite level 30, you can unluck all 3 circles for a 200 ilvl chest piece, but to unlock all 3 circles for a 250 ilvl chest piece you would need azurite level 40.

So yes, there will be an infinite grind, but it seems there is much more of a breakpoint where more azurite becomes useless, also due to the azurite empowered gear not being able to WF/TF. So for example if you only raid normal/heroic, you only need to farm enough azurite level to unlock all 3 circles for heroic Ilvl gear and then you can chill until the next raid tier. If you raid mythic, you will have to grind a bit more in order to unlock all 3 circles on mythic ilvl gear before you can relax again. As it stands now they will not do it by continueously adding more circles on top of the existing gear you gotta grind.

A side effect is that if you kill a boss and a 250 ilvl chest piece drops, it would as a result go to people with enough azurite level to fully unlock all 3 circles for max benefit(if you use masterloot).

Again, these numbers are purely hypothetical, I honestly have no idea what Ilvl gear at level 120 will have and how many azurite points will be required etc.

[kamuimac]

About blizzard adding more "circles" to grind, that is not the way azurite will be working, blizzard already explained it. Basically your necklace azurite level will determine the amount of circles you can unlock on gear, however the azurite level for each "circle" will be determined by the item level of the gear piece. So for example(using numbers completely pulled out of my a**): if you have azurite level 30, you can unluck all 3 circles for a 200 ilvl chest piece, but to unlock all 3 circles for a 250 ilvl chest piece you would need azurite level 40.

So yes, there will be an infinite grind, but it seems there is much more of a breakpoint where more azurite becomes useless, also due to the azurite empowered gear not being able to WF/TF. So for example if you only raid normal/heroic, you only need to farm enough azurite level to unlock all 3 circles for heroic Ilvl gear and then you can chill until the next raid tier. If you raid mythic, you will have to grind a bit more in order to unlock all 3 circles on mythic ilvl gear before you can relax again. As it stands now they will not do it by continueously adding more circles on top of the existing gear you gotta grind.

A side effect is that if you kill a boss and a 250 ilvl chest piece drops, it would as a result go to people with enough azurite level to fully unlock all 3 circles for max benefit(if you use masterloot).

Again, these numbers are purely hypothetical, I honestly have no idea what Ilvl gear at level 120 will have and how many azurite points will be required etc.

a) this all depends on how blizzard will scale azurite grind - if it will be as bad as on legion launch the grind will be retarded again
b)masterloot seems to be going away so gl with that

[CptEgo]

You can get a toon to ilvl 925 ish or more in one day.

You are full of shit is what you are.

[andy123456]

For Hardcore raider grinding is must but for rest, legion was not much of grind process. Complete emissary quest every 3 days , 1 RH dungeon run /day,6-9hr raid per week depending on ur preference, 1 dungeon for weekly chest reward, a player would had been capable of doing heroic raid on current tier. Which i would do in BFA. No more doing all wq every day, grinding 10+ m+ dungeon per week.

[Cosmic Janitor]

You are full of shit is what you are.

Well he is not entirely wrong, you can get a fresh 110 to that level in 24h - if you are extremely lucky and either win every single piece you need via personal loot / coins or have people drag you through raids/m+ and funnel all the loot to you. It can happen I guess, but it is hardly realistic, not to mention that just having 930 crit/versatility gear when your spec wants haste/master isn't going to help you that much either..

[IceMan1763]

For Hardcore raider grinding is must but for rest, legion was not much of grind process. Complete emissary quest every 3 days , 1 RH dungeon run /day,6-9hr raid per week depending on ur preference, 1 dungeon for weekly chest reward, a player would had been capable of doing heroic raid on current tier. Which i would do in BFA. No more doing all wq every day, grinding 10+ m+ dungeon per week.

Heroic is the equivalent of the old normal, so you're saying that as long as you're cool sticking to normal raid difficulty, Legion wasn't grindy.

The thing is though, back in Wrath when this game was designed well and extremely popular, lots of people actually participated in now Mythic difficulty (called Heroic then), In fact, probably twice as many people participated in heroic back then as currently actively play the game total. So the "it only affects the 1%" is a fairy tale told by fanbois to excuse things like ridiculous expansion long grinds, WF/TF range being way too high, and distributing BIS items by RNG diarrhea. Those are incredibly awful and impactful design decisions that had volumes of ignored negative feedback.

So, Legion being grindy at all is a problem. Mythic (and the grind did also affect heroic, just less so) raiding being too grindy is a problem that has essentially killed what used to be a healthy competitive environment and caused WOW to be at the lowest active player count ever. In other words guys, Legion was grindy and didn't work at all to revive the game. The grindiness quickly turned a potential revival into a funeral for the future of this game. It won't die, no, I'm not saying that. They WILL invest much less in the game and BFA is absolute proof in my mind. The expansion looks incredibly weak and like they've pulled back significant development resources in my eyes. Also, I would add that I think they invested A LOT in Legion resources wise. Overall I absolutely love what they did with 90% of the expansion. However, the 10% of what I did not like literally ruined the whole thing for me. Those design decisions were alarmingly short sighted, received extremely poorly, that negative feedback was ignored, then on top of it they also doubled down on those unpopular designs, like by introducing Concordance, for example. I mean I could have maybe forgiven them if they just stopped after seeing paragon traits weren't very popular (and pretty fucking pointless IMO), but that's not this dev team. Ion the ego maniac and his minions don't make mistakes. If someone can find one admission of a bad design decision from Legion I would be shocked. He literally STILL thinks randomly distributed legendaries were a good idea. Unless he admits RNG distribution of Legiondaries was a mistake I cannot be convinced that his IQ is above 1, and I won't play a game where the lead designer is that dense.

[andy123456]

Heroic is the equivalent of the old normal, so you're saying that as long as you're cool sticking to normal raid difficulty, Legion wasn't grindy.

The thing is though, back in Wrath when this game was designed well and extremely popular, lots of people actually participated in now Mythic difficulty (called Heroic then), In fact, probably twice as many people participated in heroic back then as currently actively play the game total. So the "it only affects the 1%" is a fairy tale told by fanbois to excuse things like ridiculous expansion long grinds, WF/TF range being way too high, and distributing BIS items by RNG diarrhea. Those are incredibly awful and impactful design decisions that had volumes of ignored negative feedback.

So, Legion being grindy at all is a problem. Mythic (and the grind did also affect heroic, just less so) raiding being too grindy is a problem that has essentially killed what used to be a healthy competitive environment and caused WOW to be at the lowest active player count ever. In other words guys, Legion was grindy and didn't work at all to revive the game. The grindiness quickly turned a potential revival into a funeral for the future of this game. It won't die, no, I'm not saying that. They WILL invest much less in the game and BFA is absolute proof in my mind. The expansion looks incredibly weak and like they've pulled back significant development resources in my eyes. Also, I would add that I think they invested A LOT in Legion resources wise. Overall I absolutely love what they did with 90% of the expansion. However, the 10% of what I did not like literally ruined the whole thing for me. Those design decisions were alarmingly short sighted, received extremely poorly, that negative feedback was ignored, then on top of it they also doubled down on those unpopular designs, like by introducing Concordance, for example. I mean I could have maybe forgiven them if they just stopped after seeing paragon traits weren't very popular (and pretty fucking pointless IMO), but that's not this dev team. Ion the ego maniac and his minions don't make mistakes. If someone can find one admission of a bad design decision from Legion I would be shocked. He literally STILL thinks randomly distributed legendaries were a good idea. Unless he admits RNG distribution of Legiondaries was a mistake I cannot be convinced that his IQ is above 1, and I won't play a game where the lead designer is that dense.

neither u or i have subscription number ,as blizz never released it for legion.
not sure about ur mythic progression expectation. My expectation with raid is first 4 week - heroic , any time left then do mythic and from week 5 onwards drop heroic run and do only mythic run. no PTR raid shit
By doing emissary quest every 3 days , 1 RH dungeon run , 1 m+ minimum required for max weekly chest loot i do believe a player will be sufficient geared to start heroic raid from day 1 and no need to do normal raid.
i don't think any of the blizz designer are idiot.With so much grind and rng they want you to play more that is it.I do think they kept amanthul drop so low that people will try to farm it till bfa comes thus keeping subscription number high ,which may work.
Blizz is their to make money not do social service, it is just they try to make lame answer for their design process ,their is a limit to which a person try to hide its true objective by saying something else.Like they said for tier pieces , that it blocks slots and maximum of loots get wasted due to tier set locked slot. for example :- As a dps if i can do more dps with ilvl 960 with tier set , incompare to 1000 ilvl with no tier set , i dont give a dam if maximum of loot is wasted, same goes for healer and tank.When t20 set released they Nerf t19 set so that t20 could become stronger and majority of t21 set are weaker than t20 sets.This is just poor set piece design which they want to get rid of it as they cannot do it properly and hence give lame excuses.
They will never say "hey we want you to keep playing so we have introduced so much rng"
In business profit always comes first rest all are secondary and secondary things will be shed if profit is taking a hit.

[Richardbro]

Then don’t? Lol. I didn’t grind at all for artifact power durin all of legion and had no problems meeting my goals and getting some decent prestige (cutting edge xavius, helya, guldan and all AoTC. And in pvp I met my goals getting the 40 wins each season for the vicious mounts and +15 mythic dungeon runs a few times) I probably did 70 mythic+ all expansion, usually 1 a week. I would laugh when I compared myself to friends who did 700+. I never grinder world quests for artifact power either. The only remotely grindy thing I did was do 3 pvp world quests a day for prestige levels and got artifact power from that.

Unless you’re in a top 500 raiding guild you have no reason to grind. Most guilds in the 1000+ range won’t car too much about your artifact level and these guilds will still get or almost get cutting edge.

The second thing I recommend is switch from dps to healing or tanking. Staying caught up on your artifact level as a dps will be more stressful to keep up but healing and tanking is more relaxed and not a big deal.

[globenstine]

Dude, it's been long enough that I couldn't remember the exact stats and didn't feel like logging in to double check.

And no, it wasn't that massive DURING PROGRESSION.

At the start of Nighthold we just had the extra paragon levels available in our weapons and while some were certainly more progressed it wasn't an insurmountable gap. We also know the poster I replied to was talking about the start of the raid because he said only a few folks even had their 2-set.

And yes, the other players did play better at the time. His experience is EXACTLY THE SAME as if he had shitty weapon drops for months, or trinket drops, or lacked his two set.

NONE of which mean he's a bad player, but the excuse - which is rather valid - is always the same.

"I didn't have the DPS required so they cut me and raided with players that have a higher/better gear progression. If only I had ground more artifact power, won the roll on that weapon, used my DKP on that trinket, gave the leader a cyber-hand-job for my set bonus then I would have me the DPS required to stay in the raid."

The guy eventually and quickly caught up.

Good for him.

But he was cut for a reason and whether you want to blame the grind or bad loot drops or even raid leader drama at the end of the day his DPS didn't cut it.

You must be this tall to ride, end of story.

no, it was INCREDIBLY MASSIVE DURING PROGRESSION. when nighthold dropped having maxed artifacts meant the difference between killing krosus or getting stuck. the traits were so impactful blizzard actually admitted to balancing mythic around them. also this expansion wouldnt have been nearly as bad without rng leggos and if they made AP account wide. if you maintained a couple alt fromt he beginning of the expansion rerolling was that bad. however, if you didnt imo it was just not worth all the time and effort it took to get all your AP and leggos on a new toon. i prefer to just switch to an alt im rerolling and just take it to one of my guilds alt/farm runs and get caught up on gear in a couple of raids.

[HitRefresh]

That (and other things) definitely is a deliberate time sink so you end up organizing and emptying bags. Annoying as hell and got really bad since WoD IMHO. There really is no good reason that I see to have so many differently shaped AP tokens, that also don't stack

Yeah absolutely. It would probably not be as annoying if they all shared an icon or some kind of visual marking like a distinct border, even if they didn't stack... Though stacking would be nice.