Personal loot the perferred loot method moving forward

[Low Hanging Fruit]

They limited the toxicity when they forced it in pugs. There's hardly any toxicity regarding loot in raiding guilds outside of the randomly crybaby.

Oh I agree. But I have noticed a trend lately that the random crybaby is often very listened to these days while the silent mostly satisfied masses is ignored.

[memphx]

I hope this will stay. It's not fun to gear up 1 or more characters for split runs. However personal loot in raids where there are only mains is kinda questionable. There should be a system where the players can mark ONE character per account as main and then if EVERY player have the main flag on their characters in a raid than master loot should be available.
I personally hate SELLERS even tho I did sell HC ToS from 2nd week as well for a few weeks. It burns you out and take everything thats fun in the game. With this change the guilds can sell loots harder or won't be able to sell them at all. Hopefully mounts either only if everyone has it and they are able to trade only after that. Why would anyone care about this ? You know to have a mount it requires some effort which some ppl put into the game. I really hate to see Abdul with mythic Antorus mount because he bought it for EUR..
OFF: Guilds are selling it right now even if it's against the rules.. Hidden logs c'mon how hard it is to check if a guild killed Argus with 19 guild members + 1 outsider and suddenly that person got the mount. This should be taken care of as well.

[Deleted]

And you know fuck all about me how?

Never said i did? But do explain

[Swalload]

In legion it was not really anything else to spend it on, besides tier and trinkets. They made it this way.

Well some people are really zealous about loot distribution and check everything to send the right stats to the best people who need them, but after like 2 weeks this is completely irrelevant, they juste think it makes a real different when it does not. These people are the ones scared of maybe losing masterloot I guess.

[Zyky]

Oh I agree. But I have noticed a trend lately that the random crybaby is often very listened to these days while the silent mostly satisfied masses is ignored.

This isn't going to realistically solve anything, Blizzard is just going to bleed subs this way. I know if I'm only going to be rewared by RNG and not because I've been a loyal and performing raider to my guild, I'm going to quit, as I'm sure many others will too. I don't want to see the retard who was dead 70% of the fight because he wanted to get a couple extra seconds of padding instead of moving out of a mechanic and dying getting loot over someone who was alive and did mechanics properly. I also never want to see the new recruit getting gear on his first raid night that other people need, people who have been with the guild several months/years. Forcing this is garbage.

[Eothedk]

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks personal loot is the better option for raiding. The only time personal should even matter is in casual stuff that doesn't even matter like normal difficulty. Yes, the best players should get loot first over players who suck and do not put forth the same effort. Life isn't fair, and the sooner people realize that the better things will be for them. If you want to be one of the people who get loot priority, put for the the effort and get better at the game.

[Heladys]

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks personal loot is the better option for raiding. The only time personal should even matter is in casual stuff that doesn't even matter like normal difficulty. Yes, the best players should get loot first over players who suck and do not put forth the same effort. Life isn't fair, and the sooner people realize that the better things will be for them. If you want to be one of the people who get loot priority, put for the the effort and get better at the game.

Even stupid people realize that PL awards more loot and that it's fully tradeable in an organized raid context, so you can follow whatever "only good people get loot" nonsense you like, with *more* loot to go around than ML drops.

So if even stupid people realize it, why don't the few who don't?

[badgersmashr]

The answer is anyone that contributed to the kill deserves a shot at rewards, loot councils only work if every councilman is 100% up to date with simming of every individual in the raid, while also factoring in reliability of raiders with no bias.

This is not possible, and therefore creates absurd drama over something that is supposed to be exciting.

Dont even get me started on the old legendaries: gm's and officers first, then maybe once the content is irrelevant you get to start your legendary staff quest chain.

It's not like you'll only kill a boss once, unless you repeatedly fail trials left and right, everyone does get their chance at loot over the long run, there's this thing called guild commitment and reliability as well. Are you familiar with management idea of put your aces in their places? Handing out loot based on progression merit is exactly that. If it's really THAT important to you, you have the same character ccreation screen opportunity as everyone else, switch up to a relevant class and learn to play it correctly or shut up and take your loot when it's your turn.

[Letdown]

This does in essence kill splits though. You even stated why it kills splits in a previous paragraph.



Nearly every item in a new raid is an "upgrade." There will be no splits based around armor class because there will be no trading of gear in new raids. The best case for a guild that would still cling to split raiding would be to have 5+ alts of the same class/spec/gear and run 5 split heroic raids week 1 and 2. Then frankenstein together a raid team consisting of the best geared alts per player. Afterwards there will be no point in split raiding further as the mythic team will be getting mythic level rewards that the heroic alts cannot compete with (especially with titanforging becoming more scarce). To go the extra mile and do mythic splits would hinder performance in the mythic race unless a hard gearcheck boss rears it's ugly head.

With titanforging in, that's not the case, and with M+, that'll also not be the case. How are you going to fill the time between raids? M+. Where are you likely to get higher ilvl pieces? M+. You're still going to do splits for trinkets and to try to shuffle pieces around. This will just make it more tedious. If they were removing titanforging then yeah, your point would have some validity.

And even if we go with your point, then you're right, maybe it's not by armor type -- now people will just be required to have 5 alts in high end guilds so they can rotate in and out appropriately. If anything it just means even MORE time has to be invested for top-end guilds to compete. Blizzard's issue with splits was, at least in part, it disproportionately rewarded time investment over skill -- this only compounds that issue and introduces a tremendous amount of RNG into the world first race because not only do you now need the good RNG to get BiS pieces to drop, but now you have to get them to drop on the right people.

You're right that in week 1 splits it won't matter, but since people will be gearing slower due to the lack of ML, splits will last longer into the tier on top of it. The couple of friends I have in top-end guilds are already being told what classes they're going to be expected to have to play for splits in BfA.

Yeah, it doesn't impact my guild because we don't have splits (we probably have fewer than 10 of us that actually will flex at all for Mythic), but the part where loot is now out of our control to distribute does impact us. Not to be mean to any of my guildies because I love them, but part of what's kept us afloat during hard content is being able to funnel gear to our really good players to carry. We know some of our guys struggle on mechanics and so gearing them is less of an increase to the raid than gearing the people that handle mechanics properly -- everyone on our team knows that. Our better players get gear first, and it doesn't have to just do with the meters. A really good example is we had someone die on heroic KJ soaking an extra puddle that they shouldn't have but no one else would have gotten -- clearly that's going to be a low DPS metric because of the early death, but it saved a wipe. Someone that does that is someone I want in better gear, not the person that missed their soak.

Now we will have to sit people for performance instead of giving them a chance to improve, or otherwise significantly increase the duration of any walls we hit. That's going to feel bad as an officer and as our "performance coordinator" (I'm generally the guy that goes over logs and talks to our struggling guys on ways to improve).

This change increases toxicity for guilds in "the middle" -- those of us that are on the low end of mythic progression but definitely good enough to slam our way through heroic. Our walls on mythic have a lot to do with not everyone being able to perform, and now we have to get rid of those guys instead of helping them improve because there's a chance they get the loot drop for the week and it effectively doesn't improve the raid.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

This isn't going to realistically solve anything, Blizzard is just going to bleed subs this way. I know if I'm only going to be rewared by RNG and not because I've been a loyal and performing raider to my guild, I'm going to quit, as I'm sure many others will too. I don't want to see the retard who was dead 70% of the fight because he wanted to get a couple extra seconds of padding instead of moving out of a mechanic and dying getting loot over someone who was alive and did mechanics properly. I also never want to see the new recruit getting gear on his first raid night that other people need, people who have been with the guild several months/years. Forcing this is garbage.

Blizzard has been bleeding subs for a long time. The model has shifted to trying to get more money from the people they got and are keeping than trying endlessly to keep people around and pulling new blood in.

Also its the go to "im unhappy so the sub collapse is incoming" type of argument that widely goes ignored. Let's just it is a hand thats been played since the first time this game died out of a billion deaths since that one. I will stress "deaths" sarcastically.

Also, I hate to say it.. But if master loot option is one of the bigger factors in keeping you subbed than you are likely a demographic most business models would put at very high ricks and likely not bend over backwards to please. Because they would figure you likely lost already.

Loot doesn't impact me that much. The game rains so much on us all anymore it feels like I am a couple week's until BiS minus hoping for large forge bonuses which are few and far between. If its your holy grail to raiding I guess I can see your point. But it seems very WotLk/Cata/MoP line thinking to be honest. Very dated.

[Letdown]

Loot doesn't impact me that much. The game rains so much on us all anymore it feels like I am a couple week's until BiS minus hoping for large forge bonuses which are few and far between. If its your holy grail to raiding I guess I can see your point. But it seems very WotLk/Cata/MoP line thinking to be honest. Very dated.

So enjoying raiding (which loot distribution is a part of) in a raid focused game is now outdated thinking, got it.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

So enjoying raiding (which loot distribution is a part of) in a raid focused game is now outdated thinking, got it.

Just as the letter K is the whole alphabet....

....got it...

[Letdown]

Just as the letter K is the whole alphabet....

....got it...

And yet for some reason I can't help but think the english language would feel very different (and quite possibly less enjoyable) without the letter K.

Imagine you're an author and you're no longer allowed to use a single word that involves the letter "k" because it no longer exists.

Yes, I'm sorry, I'm not looking forward to having to be even more meticulous in guild recruitment and having to bench at least a chunk of my raid team for underperforming because I can no longer give loot to my strongest members to carry.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

And yet for some reason I can't help but think the english language would feel very different (and quite possibly less enjoyable) without the letter K.

Imagine you're an author and you're no longer allowed to use a single word that involves the letter "k" because it no longer exists.

Yes, I'm sorry, I'm not looking forward to having to be even more meticulous in guild recruitment and having to bench at least a chunk of my raid team for underperforming because I can no longer give loot to my strongest members to carry.

K is gone we would just use C. People that killed themselves over it in some cult like manner would be missed for a while I guess. But time goes by and people read about it later and ask "how could people be so dumb" and likely end up as a comedy skit on SNL a decade or two later.

...and you show them boy. Show them you can do mythic with 12 to properly ensure loot greed is satisfied. Or.. if you dont do mythic... who are you kidding? It doesn't matter.. LOL

[WiggleTillFriday]

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks personal loot is the better option for raiding. The only time personal should even matter is in casual stuff that doesn't even matter like normal difficulty. Yes, the best players should get loot first over players who suck and do not put forth the same effort. Life isn't fair, and the sooner people realize that the better things will be for them. If you want to be one of the people who get loot priority, put for the the effort and get better at the game.

You seem like one of the toxic players this change is all about. Everyone who helps get the kill deserves a shot at loot. Telling others they suck and rewarding nothing is a very bad practice and not one I have ever been associated with. I raid mythic level, and I consider myself pretty good, and I am all for this change for a few different reasons and especially seeing tier pieces removed. I don't care if you can't take me seriously, and having said that, you can't take the makers of the game seriously. Here's an idea, give everyone loot fairly and help them use it to become better.
Now we really don't know the endgame gear yet, if the current PL system is staying as is, so a lot of this crying is pointless till we know more really.

[Letdown]

K is gone we would just use C. People that killed themselves over it in some cult like manner would be missed for a while I guess. But time goes by and people read about it later and ask "how could people be so dumb" and likely end up as a comedy skit on SNL a decade or two later.

...and you show them boy. Show them you can do mythic with 12 to properly ensure loot greed is satisfied. Or.. if you dont do mythic... who are you kidding? It doesn't matter.. LOL

You're clearly deliberately avoiding my counter points because you're now changing to a phonetic argument (regarding K) when my argument was diction -- it's a strawman.

I'm not going to do mythic with 12, I'm just going to find 8 better people. Right now I can get away with having people that are plenty fun to be around, raid with, etc. but really aren't quite good enough to be in mythic because I can gear the people that are definitely good enough and those people can carry the people that probably aren't quite up to snuff.

If those people can't carry any more, we can't kill mythic bosses. It's a mythic raid team -- I just have to replace the people that can't kill mythic bosses with people that can, and that sucks because some of those people might be decent given enough time. I can't have a completely miserable raid experience for the other 12 people though while the "bad 8" get up to snuff.

- - - Updated - - -

You seem like one of the toxic players this change is all about. Everyone who helps get the kill deserves a shot at loot. Telling others they suck and rewarding nothing is a very bad practice and not one I have ever been associated with. I raid mythic level, and I consider myself pretty good, and I am all for this change for a few different reasons and especially seeing tier pieces removed. I don't care if you can't take me seriously, and having said that, you can't take the makers of the game seriously. Here's an idea, give everyone loot fairly and help them use it to become better.
Now we really don't know the endgame gear yet, if the current PL system is staying as is, so a lot of this crying is pointless till we know more really.

"Everyone who helps get the kill deserves a shot at loot."

So the guy who dies 45 seconds into the pull deserves loot as much as the guy that topped the meters for the whole 7.5 minutes of the fight? The guy that shows up 3 minutes before pull, needs a summon, has to go back to get his rerolls, asks for another summon, never has pots/flask/food, has to be reminded to do his enchants and gemming -- that guy deserves loot as much as the raider that shows up 100% ready to go 15 minutes early?

Yeah, if you're a moron and you can only read meters, then you go "Oh look good DPS he gets loot." If your loot council is good and functional, someone on council goes over the logs -- especially deaths -- to see why they occurred. For example, on KJ we gave someone trinket prio because they consistently covered off missed soaks on KJ -- yes, their damage was lower for it, but they saved us wipes doing that. Flipside, the guy I went over logs with 3 times and spent 3+ hours trying to help him fix rotational errors and he's shown no progress in fixing those mistakes while simultaneously failing to do mechanics? Yup, he's gonna be low loot priority. That's not some secret in our raid. You show up prepared and on time (and on time means 15 mins early), you do mechanics, you improve week over week, you're going to be high priority for loot. If you haven't gotten loot in a while? You're high priority for loot. You don't do those things? You're going to be lower priority. There's nothing unfair about that.

If you're doing bad DPS because your gear sucks, then you need loot. If you're doing bad DPS because you're bad and you have no interest in getting better, loot's wasted on you.

You gonna tell me that gearing the guy that missed the soak is going to make him better at soaking?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

You seem like one of the toxic players this change is all about. Everyone who helps get the kill deserves a shot at loot. Telling others they suck and rewarding nothing is a very bad practice and not one I have ever been associated with. I raid mythic level, and I consider myself pretty good, and I am all for this change for a few different reasons and especially seeing tier pieces removed. I don't care if you can't take me seriously, and having said that, you can't take the makers of the game seriously. Here's an idea, give everyone loot fairly and help them use it to become better.
Now we really don't know the endgame gear yet, if the current PL system is staying as is, so a lot of this crying is pointless till we know more really.

He most certainly is. The only reason would care this much is if his life line was being cut. Likely no longer first to get all mounts, first to get tier, first trinkets, because I deserve reward. I stay out of fire. 8 other people that die shouldn't get gear because somehow we still kill mythic stuff with 8 dead (which is where the joke becomes good).

[munkeyinorbit]

I hate this argument.

They might not be playing 100%. But even someone playing at 80% is still 2% more powerful with a 2% upgrade, just that 2% means less.

Let's use an extreme example of best + worst class on a fight:
Arcane Mage 1 Mil DPS potential playing at 80% 800k gets 2% upgrade, 816k DPS.
Survival Hunter 800k DPS potential playing at 95% 760k gets 2% upgrade, 775k DPS

Who'd you rather give it to to see bosses die? Arcane Mage everytime.

That's a fucking stupid argument. Why would you bring the survival hunter at all? Get another fucking mage. Even a shit mage would be better than a world class hunter.

[Nefarious Tea]

I'm going to say something very unpopular. Screw 'Progression' Guilds.

No seriously. Screw them. We're talking about 5,000 people world wide that are in what this site calls 'progression' which is people trying for top 100. They are a tiny tiny minority. The game doesn't revolve around them anymore.

Five thousand people? You're so quaint. As of my writing this post there are SEVEN THOUSAND, NINE HUNDRED, EIGHTY ONE (7,981) guilds with at least one Mythic boss kill. You're looking at absolute minimum 160,000 players. Absolute minimum. Add in extra people to make sure there are at least twenty people online every raid night and you're looking at 200,000-240,000 people (a roster of 25-30, which is what most guilds maintain). Nearly all of them using - and content with - master loot.

So maybe don't post if you have to make up wildly lowball fake numbers to try and make your completely erroneous point.

[Kaver]

I'm really not a fan of how much they are pushing personal loot.

It really does make the game feel like a endless loot pinata especially when pushed in end game raiding. I know some guilds have struggled with distributing loot fairly in many cases but it takes away an important part of end game raiding. Rather than finally getting that trinket you want and being given it you just have to hope for rng being on your side, nevermind that it can titanforge also...its all too much rng rather than reward and community with your guild/mates.

Their excuse was pitiful also "theres no tier now" so now we get annoying whisper spam from everyone instead "Do you need that????" after you've finally gotten your BiS after 8 weeks or you get a mastery heavy item a different class needs more, The future is looking bleak....

I agree with you. All this rng is not good for anything. But when discussing this subject we have to keep in mind that the main reason Blizzard like to implement more and more rng is because... it's good for business. It provides a fake extend of the old content because players keep farming the same raids over and over to get the titanforged loot they want. Sure a lot of people are getting angry because of this system, but most of them keep playing the game. We just need to understand this when asking the question of why Blizzard keep pushing systems like personal loot on us... it's good for business. I'm sure they have a whole team investigating this.