Alts BfA will be similar to Legion in terms of alt-friendliness.

[Deleted]

Nice , xD conversation, and yes alts are a good thing to discuss, but in a way, i was implying about how the ally race implementation will be handheld with the leveling etc in mid , or trou expansion , so i did the alt comparison. But ya all free to talk about alt's :P

[Azerate]

Why are you fools invoking invasions so often? You do realise they give you maybe 1 1/2 or 2 levels at best per invasion, and you then have a long cooldown of nothing until the next one happens? Invasions would be a valid point if they went one by one without a 7-8 hour (or however long it takes for the next one to spawn) break in between.

You are the fool mate. It doesn't matter that the cooldown is long. Once the invasion is active, you can fly even 10 toons to one invasion, one after another, and get the XP on all of them. If you're a person who has 1 alt and wants to get them to 110 ASAP then yeah, it might not be the best, but there's literally no reason to do that. Just play your main and level the alts once the invasion hits - you spend almost no time on that and it takes about a week worth of invasions to ding 110.

Yes, you can easily get from 100 to 110 in the time between the invasions, but instead you can just switch to your main and play the game instead? Never thought of that?

[Alydael]

"Alts

BfA will be similar to Legion in terms of alt-friendliness.
If you are looking to get varied content from alts, the team has taken a number of steps to deliver that.
If you are looking for more alts to farm things, that is less of what the team is trying to prioritize.
There were issues with alts early in Legion, but things are closer to okay now.
The Heart of Azeroth catch up process for Azerite will work passively in the background, similar to Artifact Knowledge. "

So , ok i get it in a way, but ... all new allied races like upcoming zandalari , dark iron dwarf's and later on the ; Mag'har OrcsKul and Tiran Humans . Will be "alts". I know i get it they should not be lvl 110 at starting but, few monts into the expansion geting a new all-race and then lvling it from 20 or paying boost / race change is .. hmmm stupi? I mean ya it's new content , but it aint content like raid or new scenario. It liteler is a race that you dont need to play, but DH were a class that you "dont need to play", imamgion geting some Allied Class 20 weeks into the expansion something like dnk "battle mage" and then needing to do ll the content again jsut to have it.

The Mag orcs , Kult Humans etc, should not start at 20 ... at elast at 110 or somthing like that , or i dnk , just find it stupid in a way , its not a radi or somthing , this content should allready be t lunch in the game but , accasible after you finsinsh with one char the main story for zandalari and not ( i al least got that immpresion ) geting zandalari and darkiron in the first patch and then dnk in the second the orcs etc... middle of the expansion....

I have to agree with you about the whole leveling a new race thing.

It should be an option at character select- start at an advanced level (just to play), or at 20 if you want to farm the armor.

Methinks Blizz just wants to make money off race changes and boosts with this, that's why they won't do it.

As for Alts,

I found Legion to be very alt unfriendly. There is too many things that have to be "caught-up" at max level. They should consider making some of that progress more account bound. So you don't have to do a ton of quests to: open up a mission table and all the followers, get all the AP and AP levels, open up Suramar- all over again (I swear it just gets better and better each time!).

I think Blizz's trouble with alts is that they try to play both sides of the fence on it. They want the game to be "alt friendly' so they have some account bound stuff and some "catch up" stuff but at the same time they want you to invest in a certain toon and make this time investment in it....

They are going in two directions. That never works for anything. It just confuses and alienates people and muddles your intent with what you are trying to do.

They should decide if they are alt friendly or not. If they are- make all the grindy stuff account bound so you only have to suffer through it once. If they are not alt friendly- then don't even make catch up or anything, just play the game as is. If you want a second toon (or alt) you have to play through it all again.

That's it. A clear stance on it would do a lot to solve all the issues around this.

I think they should be alt friendly. Just for the fact that when people are bored with their main, instead of quiting- they can try something new. They might not want to try something new if it takes 100+ hours of gameplay just to get the toon ready to actually play the stuff you want.

That just really makes no sense.

[nazrakin]

I'm not sure what the issue is. If you want to play a new race then you level it from scratch.. just as you have for the past 15 years. Why is that suddenly an issue with Allied Races? If you dont want to do that then abuse the mission table like everyone else, shore away millions of gold, stockpile tokens and use them on boosts or race changes when the new races are out.

[tyrlaan]

I already know of this.

I also don't get upgrades from him. I've specifically targetted pieces with the lowest ilevel that I'm wearing and I've gotten downgrades every time I've rolled from him. I've gotten him to titanforge pieces that were still downgrades.

You don't need to pray to RNG to get 910s - But you do need to pray to RNG that the 910 is better than your 875.

This is what we call "moving goalposts"

[Deleted]

Wrath was easier without a doubt. You could ding level cap and walk straight into Nax in leveling greenies and come out tiered up.

I had a friend ding 80 whilst I was still leveling, by the time I was 80 a day or so later he had 3 parts of a raid tier set.

[Sorrior]

Wrath was easier without a doubt. You could ding level cap and walk straight into Nax in leveling greenies and come out tiered up.

I had a friend ding 80 whilst I was still leveling, by the time I was 80 a day or so later he had 3 parts of a raid tier set.

I think alot forget this system or how valor/justice worked tbh.

[darklogrus]

Seems weird to invest all this time and resources into a dozen allied races only to make gearing them up as bad as it was for the first 2/3 of Legion.

[Natta Lmo]

guess i am only going to play one character since it will take too much from u to to play alt characters

[shadowmouse]

If you are looking to get varied content from alts, the team has taken a number of steps to deliver that.
If you are looking for more alts to farm things, that is less of what the team is trying to prioritize.

I'm sure it is just me, but I don't really see these points working well together, all the more so when here at the end of Legion and later in BfA it seems like having us level even more alts is very much part of the intent.

People have been doing things like flipping stuff through multiple alts (transmutes and disenchants for example) to make more on the AH for ages, how is the something new? How am I going to be made (because I have to max those allied races to get the armor) to have (Current Alts + New Allied Alts) without ending up with an "army of alts" accumulating gold, greens, resources and whatever? While I don't mind the Farm/Garrison/Class Hall stuff, that only magnifies the problem by adding missions and multiplying by the total number of alts. Did anyone think this through?

[SirCowdog]

The main thing that concerns me about alts is going to be the Azerite grind. Late in the expansion I'm sure there's going to be a catchup mechanic, but earlier on alts will be painful, just like they were in Legion.

I really wonder how they're going to address this, because being alt-friendly doesn't really fit into the business model of stretching content with lots of RNG.

[shadowmouse]

Alas, the main thing that worries me about the Azerite grind is that it exists at all. I'm taking it as a shift to a way to have us re-engineer our characters every expansion bundled up as gearing.

Glyphs have been trashed. Talents got lost in Limbo. Now we unlock things that modify our character through some form of base and mission table to be told that some of it will go away and some will be baked in next expansion. We went from grinding to unlock and improve a cloak, then a ring, to having whole sets of talents stuffed into a weapon. Now weapons are back, but we do much the same with armor.

It seems like they have a set of ideas they would like, but they're implementing them as a series of band-aids instead of a top to bottom rework. Not a huge issue, but with expansion layered over expansion, and now having us go back through those expansions, the layers of fixes aren't creating nostalgia for me -- it just seems awkward. I feel like their comments on crafting this expansion show that they see it too, but after Cata nobody seems willing to take the bull by the horns.

The team is changing the way the universal profession skill system works. It was always a bit awkward, as the team wanted people to be able to catch up for the latest expansion. Going back to craft useless gear wasn't great.

I'm not going full on pessimist. As with any expansion, I'll find stuff I like and things I may bow out on, but if I had a general hope it would be to see them go back to sometimes taking a stab at rebalancing the whole game. Flying became forced to the point they just gave up even trying to explain it (do not get me started wondering how so many foot soldiers figured out Legion flying before we did) and just said it was a game design choice. I would have done it differently, I think they could have used more carrot and less stick (and far less getting stuck in every clump of grass), but that is something we can look at and say they just made something a design change. Right now, I used to wonder what the next reason my mount forgot how to flap its wings would be, and I'm getting the same sense of "Gee, maybe the expansion after this we could have Voidium and Lightemupdium that will be used to modify the chakras of our bodies but won't be at all like glyphs or talents".

[Deleted]

Not a fan of the system since MOP. I loved cata in that regard, There were fix goals you could have and were literally "done" with a character. During Dragonsoul, to get ready for LFR meant spaming HoT Dungeons. If you had every slot 378 you jumped into LFR and once again the maximal gear you could get was fix... Thinges got a lot rougher with legendary quests and warforged. It got unbearable for me in Legion with AP, more legendaries and titanforge.

I loved the old time when you spammed one dungeon for one item, in one version and then were done and repeat till you completed your list.

[SirCowdog]

I'm not going full on pessimist.

I'll do it for you:

Blizzard isn't interested in player agency. They want to control as many aspects of how we progress as possible, to better plan, predict, and control how long content will last. And by doing so predict, plan, and ultimately control how much subscription profit they get each month.

Think about it: How many times in WoD or Legion did you ever actually get to make any choices for your character? How much of it was just sitting on the rails and either grinding away at a progress bar or waiting for a timer to expire before being able to go on to the next bit?

I just don't see how BfA is going to be more alt friendly under the current design team and philosophy.

[shadowmouse]

Blizzard isn't interested in player agency. They want to control as many aspects of how we progress as possible, to better plan, predict, and control how long content will last. And by doing so predict, plan, and ultimately control how much subscription profit they get each month.

Oddly enough, I'm OK with that. I've been on the fringes of game design since cardboard counters and hex paper. I did my little bits in the days of pencil and paper RPGS. I'm acutely aware of how cumbersome storytelling is when we're cranking hundreds of thousands, even millions, of players through the same quest to get six pig ears. I avoided the whole MMO genre because of that, my middle daughter got me to play WoW when it came out here, and for me it is an idle hobby that keeps me more engaged than just watching a TV show. That's a pretty low bar to clear, and if cash flow keeps servers up and some form of content coming, well ... it saves me from rereading the collected works of Terry Pratchett quite as often as I already do.

As far as choices, progress bars are what we're going to have. I'm not going to be able to join Twilight's Hammer, succumb to the Legion's promises of power, and hell ... at some point I'm going to be forced to kill 115 of whatever that zone's swine are because I need six pig ears to unlock something.

More alt friendly will be, I suspect, as I already mentioned -- having alts will let us get some class specific stuff unlocked, the same way that if you're into battle pets you need a Shaman to get to Snowfang. In that sense they will be able to say alts opened some options for us.

I expect some of the pain of gearing will be diluted by doing Island Expeditions for the Azerite grind.

Taking what the team liked from Mists of Pandaria's scenarios and stepping it up, these expeditions take a team of three players to uncharted islands across the Great sea in search of Azerite. Each island is randomly generated and so there is always something unique and new to find.

This time around, Azerite is the bait for us to keep running them. For gearing that may be the same thing as running M+ in Legion to get gear, even if it was short of what your main might get from progression raids. Oh, and we'll have the BfA version of mission tables that will probably dish out bits of Azerite the same as they dish out bloods and such now.

In the end, it will come down to execution and we're still a long way off from seeing how that will play out.

[SirCowdog]

Oddly enough, I'm OK with that. I've been on the fringes of game design since cardboard counters and hex paper. I did my little bits in the days of pencil and paper RPGS. I'm acutely aware of how cumbersome storytelling is when we're cranking hundreds of thousands, even millions, of players through the same quest to get six pig ears. I avoided the whole MMO genre because of that, my middle daughter got me to play WoW when it came out here, and for me it is an idle hobby that keeps me more engaged than just watching a TV show. That's a pretty low bar to clear, and if cash flow keeps servers up and some form of content coming, well ... it saves me from rereading the collected works of Terry Pratchett quite as often as I already do.

And for those of us who want the game to be more than just a TV show? Honestly, if I wanted to watch TV there's more than enough mindless drivel out there. And they don't require me to collect six pig ears in order to go to the next episode. Nor do they force me to slog through episodes 1-10 just to see season 2. I can fast forward if I want. I can skip entire episodes. Something you could NEVER do in WoW. In WoW you literally have to do every little step regardless of whether it's relevant, interesting, or even remotely fun. Things like Pathfinder still being required in older expansions.

As far as choices, progress bars are what we're going to have. I'm not going to be able to join Twilight's Hammer, succumb to the Legion's promises of power, and hell ... at some point I'm going to be forced to kill 115 of whatever that zone's swine are because I need six pig ears to unlock something.

Even something as simple as an actual talent tree would be nice. I look at games like Wolcen or Path of Exile, and they make WoW's talent systems look like pre-school crayon projects. It's disappointingly sad that even vanilla's talent trees were more engaging and interesting than what we have now. At least there were choices, even if some of them weren't optimal.

Don't get me wrong here. I would LOVE to be able to choose to be the bad guys. Screw Aduin and his stupid light. Piss off Sylvanas with your bitchy plots! I'm gonna go work for the Legion, or the Void, or even just Wrathion, and do things my own way. But I'd settle for just being able to customize my character instead of being the same cookie-cutter as everyone else with plus or minus a few hundred hours of grind.

[shadowmouse]

@SirCowdog

for me it is an idle hobby that keeps me more engaged than just watching a TV show

Erm, did you misread something? You seem to have missed the word "more" and gotten the impression I only expect WoW to play through like a TV show. Incorrect, the word "more" makes a difference. I find television apt to have better writing than WoW, but it is a passive experience. Whatever the respective benefits of the formats are, I find WoW more active (and thus engaging) because as few as my choices may be, if I want to dress my LFD Paladin up in heirloom cloth and try to beat things to death with a staff, I can.

But I'd settle for just being able to customize my character instead of being the same cookie-cutter as everyone else with plus or minus a few hundred hours of grind.

Somewhat like my point above, take that up with Blizzard? Was I too subtle in expressing that I'm not particularly wild about lots of things, but they're what we have to work with? I'll refer you back to an earlier comment of mine:

As with any expansion, I'll find stuff I like and things I may bow out on, but if I had a general hope it would be to see them go back to sometimes taking a stab at rebalancing the whole game.

You've raised points, I've commented. No need to lecture as if I'm Blizzard, or even really in disagreement with you.

[Pickynerd]

Threads like these make me think some people are playing a different game.

I've played Wotlk, Cata, Mop and Legion, and Legion is the most alt-friendly so far. I finally raised every class to a cap and already working on my 15th 110 right now. Yes, Legion is alt friendly - it's easy to level up (afk invasions 98-110 for a total of 1 hour gameplay) and it's easy to get geared. It can hardly be easier than that.

So this basically means wow will continue being alt friendly, which is good news of course.

I don't think you know what alt-friendliness means...

Beginning of Legion wasn't alt friendly at all, they have since made it much better by allowing you to buy AK level/unlocking fully at max level, buy OH resources ect.

Leveling and gearing was always easy as a side project since tbc.

[SirCowdog]

@SirCowdog



Erm, did you misread something? You seem to have missed the word "more" and gotten the impression I only expect WoW to play through like a TV show. Incorrect, the word "more" makes a difference. I find television apt to have better writing than WoW, but it is a passive experience. Whatever the respective benefits of the formats are, I find WoW more active (and thus engaging) because as few as my choices may be, if I want to dress my LFD Paladin up in heirloom cloth and try to beat things to death with a staff, I can.



Somewhat like my point above, take that up with Blizzard? Was I too subtle in expressing that I'm not particularly wild about lots of things, but they're what we have to work with? I'll refer you back to an earlier comment of mine:


You've raised points, I've commented. No need to lecture as if I'm Blizzard, or even really in disagreement with you.

No no, I wasn't really trying to argue with you. More just giving my own opinion on the same topic. It seems like we're both sort of on the same page, with different severity. I'm pretty disillusioned with WoW ever since WoD. To me WoD was a train wreck, and Legion was more of a cover-up than actually fixing anything. They distracted players with fanservice, but continued to take the game downhill.

We'll see what happenes with BfA. All I know is that I won't be buying it until perhaps the 2nd or 3rd major patch, if at all. I have zero desire to fall for the hype. Not even a little bit that looks mildly interesting like Demon Hunters this time around(and boy did that turn out to be a flop in the end).

All in all, I don't see any reason to continue supporting the direction they're taking the game.

[Raugnaut]

Alt friendly does NOT mean that you get to skip the leveling process. Alt-Friendly only means that once you hit that character to max-level, it can catch up to the point most other players are relatively quickly.

For instance, the current Unsullied sets are VERY alt friendly, as you can equip a character with a full set of 880s as soon as they hit 110. Argus is also very alt-friendly, since you can get a character up to 920 ilvl very quickly. Artifact Knowledge and Power is also alt-friendly, as you can do what used to take multiple months in a single daily. Furthermore, rather then WQs rewarding 805 item lvl for a fresh 110, like at the start of the expansion, they reward 840-850 ilvl, which quickly scales up to 880 ilvl.

On the other hand, Prestige is not alt-friendly - You have to play it the exact same amount as everyone else (Baring the various nerfs) in order to catch up to other players who have been playing longer. Legendaries also aren't quite alt friendly - You have to play a significant amount without the legendaries, thus gimping your preformance, in order to get your BiS legendaries.