Personal loot the perferred loot method moving forward

[Strifelol]

You guys realize that your raid has to be 80% of the same guild in order to even set it to Master Loot right? You also realize it's an "option" to enable said loot method right? Master Loot isn't a person behind your chair pointing a gun to your head saying " YOU BETTER ENABLE ME RIGHT NOW OR I'M BLOWING YOUR FUCKING BRAINS OUT MOTHERFUCKER". So why remove something that isn't causing issues? Makes 0 sense and that's why a lot of people are not happy about it.

If you prefer PL, awesome! Keep using PL! No one is stopping you. At the same time, guilds that have organized loot systems and prefer using ML because we want to have efficiency when it comes to handing out loot so we can get it to the right players/classes that will most benefit for the GUILDS PROGRESSION (not personal gain), let us keep that option. I haven't heard a single case where Master Loot went into a raid and killed everyone because it didn't get used. Personal Loot isn't efficient, someone could get a trinket that is complete garbage for them but is really good for someone else but they can't trade it because of the ilvl lock. Your tanks could get completely fucked and get maybe 1-2 pieces of loot for the first 3 weeks and not have enough stam/mitigation stats to survive a boss, your dps could get shitty itemized gear that they can't wear and or can't meet dps checks because you got unlucky on loot?

When you're in a competitive guild regardless if you're top 10 world or top 100 of your region, you need efficiency and consistency and PL doesn't give you either of those. So at the end of the day, if you like PL keep using it and if you don't like ML well then just ignore the little button and move on with your life and leave that option available to the people that do want to use it and have been using it successfully for a very long time. Also, we don't want more loot. More loot doesn't make it efficient, especially if it's just going to be wasted because it's not itemized correctly or it's not good for your class and it just collects dust or can't be traded.

I'm confused as to why people that like PL are arguing with people that want to keep ML as an OPTION, we aren't saying that we want ML as the only option for everyone, just let us keep the option to use it. Why can't you guys grasp this?

[WiggleTillFriday]

He most certainly is. The only reason would care this much is if his life line was being cut. Likely no longer first to get all mounts, first to get tier, first trinkets, because I deserve reward. I stay out of fire. 8 other people that die shouldn't get gear because somehow we still kill mythic stuff with 8 dead (which is where the joke becomes good).

Ya, there are clearly ppl posting in here that are the reason this change has come and just refuse to see it and blame blizzard for just making the game "Place Holder". there was a time I was a firm believer in loot council, but that time has come and gone , change happens and at the end of the day this change really doesn't do much at all. Also just a few little changes to PL and this changes nothing really, maybe even more loot.

[Kaver]

This also removes the the ability for dick guild leads to take shit that they should not, good change I think.

I would suggest people who are in guilds with these kind of leaders should quickly leave the guild and find a new one regardless of the loot system.

[Nefarious Tea]

PL is good, apart from the terrible "drop" chances. Two lockouts in ToS (20 bosses!) without a drop, been there.

It will never be as bad as when it was first introduced in WOD. Before they hotfixed it to have a guaranteed loot count, I did a Highmaul pug where no one got loot from a full clear.

[Kaver]

Is see a lot of people saying they are happy to see ML go because then people can't screw others... what kind of guilds are you in where people are this toxic?

[Chakah]

My most immediate concern is for guilds that are not full guild groups because they either had a pug or are trialing new members. In these situations, most people understand that they are pretty much going to use bonus rolls and their only shot at getting loot is if something would otherwise be d/e'd or just taken for transmog (or, again, their bonus rolls). Forced personal loot is the game effectively forcibly including people into the loot people that normally wouldn't be present.

This is just wrong. 'Most people' don't understand that. If you want to tell them thats your policy for them to be invited, thats fine, but its hardly a common opinion since the introduction of personal loot years ago. You can choose to invite pugs or not. It is their loot, and nothing is stolen. A trial who gets an upgrade and stays benefits the group. A trial who leaves with an upgrade was just a pug.

Non-personal loot is toxic with pugs. I've seen more than a few raids where guild members would conspire with each other in order to maximize loot staying in the guild despite having a stated more liberal loot policy (open roll, ms/os, or whatever).

In short, the trading rules for personal loot make getting loot less exciting across the board for guild groups, because not only do you need to have the RNG that your item dropped, but then you need the other layer of RNG that it dropped FOR you OR is tradeable on someone else that doesn't need it.

Thats not how the RNG works. You are looking at it wrong. Its a single roll per player. The game doesn't calculate the boss drops and do a seperate roll to see who gets the item. I guarantee Blizzard has tuned the drops rates with tradable personal loot in mind. Thats one reason why PL drops more items than ML.

I mean, there's no way that having to ask a raider for a piece of gear to distribute DOESN'T introduce some degree of toxicity, and there's no way forced personal loot won't get policed by any serious progression group.

I agree - loot councils are toxic when mixed with personal loot. Avoid.

Maybe there's a way to tweak personal loot to make it more viable going forward (boss specific BLP, for starters), but you're still left with issues like being forced to give loot to trials (as an example).

You didn't give the loot to the trial - the game did.

I'm sure Blizzard is well aware of the social and progression ramifications of master loot and personal loot. What makes you think they don't specifically tune drop rates to compensate for player behavior?

Other tweaks they could introduce might be altering the 'tradable' criteria. Perhaps mythic gear is tradable over a wider ilvl range? I'm sure when they do kill off master loot completely, there will be some form of 'compensation' to progression guilds.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Lack of options = bad

[Zyky]

Blizzard has been bleeding subs for a long time. The model has shifted to trying to get more money from the people they got and are keeping than trying endlessly to keep people around and pulling new blood in.

Also its the go to "im unhappy so the sub collapse is incoming" type of argument that widely goes ignored. Let's just it is a hand thats been played since the first time this game died out of a billion deaths since that one. I will stress "deaths" sarcastically.

Also, I hate to say it.. But if master loot option is one of the bigger factors in keeping you subbed than you are likely a demographic most business models would put at very high ricks and likely not bend over backwards to please. Because they would figure you likely lost already.

Loot doesn't impact me that much. The game rains so much on us all anymore it feels like I am a couple week's until BiS minus hoping for large forge bonuses which are few and far between. If its your holy grail to raiding I guess I can see your point. But it seems very WotLk/Cata/MoP line thinking to be honest. Very dated.

I'm sorry, but the entire point of master loot is the feeling of being rewarded in a guild for performance, attendance, and loyalty. No guild wants to give loot to a person that always dies in the first 30 seconds of an encounter, nor would they be keeping him/her past his trial most of the time and might even cut the trial short. Nobody, and I stress nobody because it's actually common sense in this situation, that does progression mythic raiding in a guild they've been in for several months/years, wants to see a recruit get 5 pieces of loot in his first raid night with the guild. None the less it feels even worse when that new recruit fails his trial or gets all the gear then leaves because he has no more use for said guild after getting geared. You can say its dated all you want, but the truth is, not having Master Loot is a guild killer and will be the large reason that guilds die before BFA release if they announce this is the way they want to go. Hundreds of thousands of people will unsub, just like they did with the flying debacle in Warlords.

This system doesn't do anything for any of the actual problems in the game, it just creates new problems for guilds. If you don't like how a guild is run, you don't join or you leave that guild. It's getting to the point where Blizzard is designing their game around "oh everyone has to be happy and we need to make sure that no player has control". I'm sorry, but if Blizzard wants to go the PC route with their game, it's going to die, and I will be one of the first people unsubbing when they take control away from a guild's leadership the ability to reward their loyal raiders.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Ya, there are clearly ppl posting in here that are the reason this change has come and just refuse to see it and blame blizzard for just making the game "Place Holder". there was a time I was a firm believer in loot council, but that time has come and gone , change happens and at the end of the day this change really doesn't do much at all. Also just a few little changes to PL and this changes nothing really, maybe even more loot.

Exactly. I am with you. But with how gearing is now its a totally different ball game. Most of the best gear comes from mythic plus. Tier is gone. Game has changed. It makes it rain loot on you. Having someone limit that so he can ensure his own goods is sad.

[Accendor]

I’m against the removal of it. Player choice is important and this removes choice for a lot of guilds.

Exactly this.

[tkioz]

Five thousand people? You're so quaint. As of my writing this post there are SEVEN THOUSAND, NINE HUNDRED, EIGHTY ONE (7,981) guilds with at least one Mythic boss kill. You're looking at absolute minimum 160,000 players. Absolute minimum. Add in extra people to make sure there are at least twenty people online every raid night and you're looking at 200,000-240,000 people (a roster of 25-30, which is what most guilds maintain). Nearly all of them using - and content with - master loot.

So maybe don't post if you have to make up wildly lowball fake numbers to try and make your completely erroneous point.

Learn to read.

[Zyky]

Exactly. I am with you. But with how gearing is now its a totally different ball game. Most of the best gear comes from mythic plus. Tier is gone. Game has changed. It makes it rain loot on you. Having someone limit that so he can ensure his own goods is sad.

Then good leave master loot alone, if you truly believe that. Dungeons are already personal loot and they screw over people more than master loot does. I've seen it happen several times where something higher IL drops that I or someone else doesn't need but we can't trade it to someone who would use it. It's happened more times than I can remember this expansion in specifically mythic plus. This is going to be the same problem in BFA if they make PL in raids. "Oh my DH got a Haste/Vers neck Thats 10ils higher than my Crit/Mastery Neck, guess its just a DE shard since I can't trade it. Sorry tanks, misc dps, and misc healers."

[Khebul]

Assuming ML is removed, but personal loot is still tradable - ML can be emulated by trading all the loot people got from the boss to a specific person. This is extremely clunky and annoying for all participants, but most guilds interested in progression will want to do it.

Assuming ML is not removed, but gives less items than PL - guilds will still want to use ML for important pieces like weapons, trinkets and titanforged pieces.

Either option creates more problems for progression guilds than it solves.

[Volitar]

Ion the betrayer to the rescue to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

Kill mythic argus for the first time? Applicant who has been in for 4 pulls gets the mount, thanks personal loot!

[Primemrip]

Personal Loot is great until your mythic guild stops inviting casual players to pad loot drops because its better to guarentee loot on a raider than maybe have it go on someone who isn't going to progress your raid, so you never get to go anyway and then you are stuck trying to pug where you have almost no chance of getting loot handed down or dropped for you anyway. Its a sad spiral downwards and casuals are falling into the trap.

Also anyone crying about how masterlooter is bad and loot council screwed them. Well theres an easy fix to that too. Its called not joining a guild with a shitty loot council, you think taking away ML will make those kinda guilds safe havens, hell no, they are probably gonna be bad guilds regardless. Remember Blizzard didn't force you to join a guild using masterlooter, you are in control of what you do, nothing anyone else does has any impact on that, don't blame systems for your crappy personal mistakes. Thats what most people who are at the bottom do IRL and it doesnt help them get anywhere.

And lastly trials, if you get invited to trial, you are not a raider, you should not get loot, you know why, because you might fail your trial miserably and then walk away to the next guild fully stacked. No one wants that to happen. Remember on a loot council your duty is to the guild not to pander to someone who has zero attachment to your guild.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Eh, given power, people will abuse it. It is a general rule of humanity and one that plays out in the game all the time. When PL came out, I was rather excited (more so when they refined it a bit) for precisely the reason that the devs indicated: It is better for the playerbase overall.

It surprised me then that it wasn't in use as much as it is now (and likely more so in the future). It kills the complicated systems guilds come up with to deny loot to others in the raid. Whether it is a trial, a pug, a regular member, or someone needing just one more piece (and inevitably stops raiding shortly after), everyone who is there and contributes to the raid had a stake in killing the boss. They also have an equal shot at loot. They may not get it. The RNG gods are mercurial and cruel, but they are equally so to everyone in their own way.

I'm quite fine with PL becoming standard. After 14 years, it would be great to never have to worry about greed with loot again.

Join/start a guild that exclusively uses PL. That would have solved your own made up problems.

[Deleted]

It's the natural path towards the goal blizz set a long ago with Wotlk filosofy, Gradually stripping WoW of it's MMO features to trasform it into something more arcade and manageable. The social people satisfaction driven were gradually starved of content since then and the casual "fun" players were rewarded for interacting less and less. I'm not surprised in the least from this change, after 10-25 split->lfg->lfr->flex->personal and m+ theyr goal was so obvious that i'm honestly amused to see someone get shocked by this change. I honestly would not be surprised to see raids go altogheter. The playerbase is not interested in the old MMO systems anymore, so it's perfectly reasonable for them to go into this direction.

[Kaykay]

It's not like you'll only kill a boss once, unless you repeatedly fail trials left and right, everyone does get their chance at loot over the long run, there's this thing called guild commitment and reliability as well. Are you familiar with management idea of put your aces in their places? Handing out loot based on progression merit is exactly that. If it's really THAT important to you, you have the same character ccreation screen opportunity as everyone else, switch up to a relevant class and learn to play it correctly or shut up and take your loot when it's your turn.

thing is, those are parameters that make sense and i agree would be nice to have loot decided on those parameters.

The problem is that no loot council has the time knowledge and overview to make those decisions on the fly. And some guy dying 30 seconds into the fight on the kill isn't a big deal if he didn't die the previous 30 tries. So in the end it's gonna come down to favoritism.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Then good leave master loot alone, if you truly believe that. Dungeons are already personal loot and they screw over people more than master loot does. I've seen it happen several times where something higher IL drops that I or someone else doesn't need but we can't trade it to someone who would use it. It's happened more times than I can remember this expansion in specifically mythic plus. This is going to be the same problem in BFA if they make PL in raids. "Oh my DH got a Haste/Vers neck Thats 10ils higher than my Crit/Mastery Neck, guess its just a DE shard since I can't trade it. Sorry tanks, misc dps, and misc healers."

Life and video games. Still got a house, car, and eatting well. Can't say this makes me cry.

[Zyky]

Life and video games. Still got a house, car, and eatting well. Can't say this makes me cry.

Then don't put your opinion in, if it doesn't effect you, then your opinion is literally not worth anything. Otherwise you're literally just a white knight defending blizzard and a terrible choice that just further destroys guilds and organized raiding.