oh boy, its time to jump in saurfang throat with out of context unfinished dialogues just because he is against the dead elf "warchief", we may also mock his sense of honor, cause honor means shit to this new horde
what a time to be alive
oh boy, its time to jump in saurfang throat with out of context unfinished dialogues just because he is against the dead elf "warchief", we may also mock his sense of honor, cause honor means shit to this new horde
what a time to be alive
And one family is killing his people while other is trying to actually saving them. And yes, acting on your own "because i know better" is treason.
As for that mention...his son died pointless death charging enemy with his axe. Perhaps thats all that saurfangs are good for. So being able to ressurect them would make sense. Just imagine all those honorable deaths. So much more honor.
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Honor is becoming new "High elf".
"I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"
... if i read this entire thread, am i gonna want to gouge my eyes out afterwards?
i loled at "honorfang"
relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87qstckIwqs
I mean, when Saurfang was the Warchief's second-in-command "his" Horde enslaved dragons and used necromancy to win wars. And that mentality may actually fit Garrosh's Horde more than any other, if "honorably dying in battle" is all that truly matters to him now.
Sure, Sylvanas may be the kind of character willing to sacrifice a certain amount of troops to ensure victory. But is that truly so much worse than dying for the sake of honor? What's the actual difference, in the end, apart being two opposite sides of the same coin?
I do like to see conflict between Saurfang and Sylvanas (it makes sense to me) but i hope it does not end up as others have said (MoP 2.0) but we shall see
Last edited by Syegfryed; 2018-03-17 at 08:13 PM.
Well... i just hope that her "Redemption arc", is a "Redemption Arc" only in the eyes of the Horde, as there should be no redemption for Sylvanas in the eyes of the Alliance.
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This made me realize....
Saurfang would really like someone like Odyn (as long as he does not read Chronicles :P)
They picked him because they want his narrative to be the ''right one'' to make it easier and easier for people to stop caring about another Horde leader, about another Iconic Horde character (Sylvanas), they picked him because they want him to be ''right'' and her wrong by the end of the expansion.
Blizzard is absolutely not subtle in the least. (most of the time).
Just to add to this, caring for your soldiers is good. You certainly should throw their lives away for no reason. But when care is taken to excess, care becomes fear for their safety, which leads to unwise strategic decisions. In war, generals must be ready to send their soldiers to their deaths in order to achieve the greater goal of victory. Otherwise, you're just not being a good leader.
A relevant quip from Sun Tzu(famous military strategist) in Art of War, the 5 "sins" that may befall a general:
(1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
(2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
(3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
(4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
(5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.
You gotta be willing to crack a few eggs if you want to make an omelette .
Last edited by ello; 2018-03-17 at 10:35 PM.
Oops, forgot to address this gem.
All we know about the Desolate Council is that some of them hold reservations about a single desire of Sylvanas.
Literally wat.
Saurfang just shat on the Blood Oath and abandoned his duties as the leader of the Orcs. Why should other Orcs give a damn about him under those circumstances?
The Darkspears refused to join Zul. Even then, Vol'jin considered joining him after all in Shadows of the Horde. But ultimately, Zul's Zandalari are the enemy of Rastakhan's Zandalari. And it's Rastakhan's forces that actually join the Horde. The Darkspears are very active in Zandalar, helping the allied Zandalari out.
And before Sylvanas became Warchief, the Forsaken were led by someone with authority issues as well. But in the end Sylvanas stayed in the Horde just fine.
Except the Horde agrees that Sylvanas saved it at the Broken Shore.
If Sylvanas cheated, she'd only turn the Horde against herself. And that alone would be enough to achieve Saurfang's goals. Plus he'd get his desired death. Besides, Sylvanas would wreck him and as such doesn't neat to cheat.
Except cold pragmatism is Sylvanas' #1 trait. She never wastes soldiers for the sake of it. She found a way to deal with Alliance's bullshit siege towers of infeasibility and acted accordingly. Meanwhile Saurfang just whines about honor, which only wastes time (and as such, may waste Horde lives) when Sylvanas humors his delusions and asks for a honorable alternative.
Just as he does in regards to the siege towers. He offers no alternative here, just as he offered in regards to the Blight. And without siege towers being dealt with, Horde is vulnerable. Which costs Horde lives the longer the towers are active. That's him causing an objectively needless waste of life. Unless you think Saurfang looking at them with moral superiority written all over his face and screaming muh honor is a good way to deal with the problem and one that protects the Horde army at large.
That aside, why would Orcs dying while protecting the weapon that actually can destroy the siege towers, in contrast to Saurfang's moral high ground, be dishonorable? They'd turn the battle in Horde's favor. Meanwhile dying just for the sake of honor, like he wants in the cinematic where he gets captured for example, achieves nothing but satiating his hard on for "honor", which is utterly meaningless. And as such is pointless from the perspective of the army.
Bailing on the Horde entirely and abandoning the Orcs he was the leader of is not understandable in terms of his character even if Sylvanas resurrected Dranosh in front of him.
The above most certainly is not. Let's say Saurfang, a veteran of all of the Horde's wars is actually a moron when it comes to military matters and somehow can't comprehend why Sylvanas considered the protection of the Azerite weapon as it charged to shoot at the siege towers necessary while on the spot. But he opens his Stockades dialogue with saying how he had time to think things through. So, after he calmed down, he couldn't realize that Sylvanas outright told him she doesn't want to needlessly waste Horde lives and couldn't transplant that onto the siege towers situation? Did "honor" completely rot his brain away?
I mean, let's take a step back to Broken Shore. Sylvanas saved the Horde. The Horde leaders acknowledge that when Vol'jin told so to Sylvanas. And she saved that by calling the Val'kyr, her most precious troops, ones that are necessary for her survival. So she saved the Horde with a great risk to herself. Because it was necessary. Did Saurfang forget that? Or did his brain rot also make him unable to comprehend that Sylvanas even takes necessary risks to herself when it's needed and that perhaps she's not someone just sacrificing people for lol evil? And couldn't transplant that onto the siege towers either?
How did Anduin insult his honor less than Sylvanas, let alone not insult it at all? He outright told him there was no honor in what Saurfang considered to be honorable and continued to insist on that even after Saurfang told him it's not something for a human to decide. How is outright negation not an insult? Meanwhile Sylvanas didn't negate his honor, she only said it's meaningless to a corpse, which it is since corpses are kinda not alive, and that she doesn't care if he pursues his honorable death. Her not caring about him dying could be considered at insult, but that'd be an insult directed at Saurfang, not his honor.
But dying with honor in the way Saurfang envisions it, when he even seeks being executed on the spot after being defeated (which has a lot of parallels to death by cop), is not commendable at all. Its borderline mental illness. And when Saurfang has been whining about his nonsense for the entire siege while offering nothing of value, he needed a reality check and not coddling with falsehoods to make him feel good. If he can't handle that, kudos to him and his newfound lack of a spine. It fits both his equally newfound Broxigar syndrome that recofused his take on honor to "honorable death" above everything else and his new overlord Blanduin.
But Sylvanas' results are minimizing losses as much as possible and ensuring the evacuation of the civilian population. Which may not win the hearts of the families of the soldiers that lost their lives in a maneuver that's hard to accept for people that weren't there and don't know much about war. But it should win the hearts of people who have decades of experience in warfare (and as such should understand the necessity of her tactics). Like, I dunno, this Saurfang guy I keep hearing about.
How does that need reflecting? He already proved to the world and himself that he can do that if necessary. What's missing is the necessary part. And if he arrived at the conclusion that his wounded feels create such a necessity, he didn't reflect on the situation for squat, he just festered in his emotions and mental health issues.
How is him outright abandoning the Horde and even Orcs of whom he's the leader not him turning his back on the Horde? Saurfang is pulling a Vol'jin from Shadows of the Horde if Vol'jin actually joined the Zandalari. "I don't like the other children so I'm taking my toys and leaving them" is textbook turning one's back.
But the Warchief with the closest take on strategy to Sylvanas was Orgrim who did what was necessary to win even if it meant Death Knights. You know, the Old Horde one. And the guy whose second in command was Saurfang.
Shhh, Sylvanas said a mean thing to him so it makes sense. Even though Blanduin completely negated his honor.
And just as Vol'jin, he won't be punished for his treason because he's the "right one" and because Blizzard's writing in regards to such issues is black and white.
Meanwhile Saurfang fails at four of these.
Sure he does? Technology advancements are irrelevant. What Sun Tzu wrote hasn't been invalidated. Even after centuries of weapons advances, If you look at his basic principles of how a battle should or should not be fought, it is as good today. The methods may change, means to execute the principle may change, but the principles are still applicable. The phrase "know your enemy" has been around for god knows how long, but it's still applicable today. His work is still influential today.
one of the biggest things he stresses is that war is not a desirable outcome and should be avoided. But if a war is to be fought, then you fight to win and win quickly. I think that's still sound knowledge.
Last edited by ello; 2018-03-17 at 10:36 PM.
What? You can't be serious, especially when the Mongols conquered China using Chinese tech.
That's why the Mongols conquered Asia with tactical withdrawal tactics?
Again, Sun Tzu is good and all, but it was written for pikemen and cavarly.
Looks like Sylvanas did exactly that, she won a phyric victory. Because Saurfang's plan was to die on the field.