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  1. #601
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    oh boy, its time to jump in saurfang throat with out of context unfinished dialogues just because he is against the dead elf "warchief", we may also mock his sense of honor, cause honor means shit to this new horde

    what a time to be alive

  2. #602
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    But what if anduin inherited genetic honor of his father ? And now honorfang feels obliged to aid him in name of honor and restoring his honor ?
    Now I'm really beginning to develop a growing nausea at the mere mention of the word "honor". It reminds me of when I felt the same regarding the orc's death animation sound throughout WoD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  3. #603
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    Humor aside, there is a certain symmetry to it being about son of Saurfang and son of Varian. When Saurfang sees Varian's son, surely he thinks of his own, and the respect shown by Anduin's father that day. He might also think of the last time Sylvanas mentioned his son, while threatening to make him into what his son had been. One family has treated him and his with respect; the other clearly doesn't.

    None of that would make him betray the Horde, but it surely affects his thinking.
    And one family is killing his people while other is trying to actually saving them. And yes, acting on your own "because i know better" is treason.
    As for that mention...his son died pointless death charging enemy with his axe. Perhaps thats all that saurfangs are good for. So being able to ressurect them would make sense. Just imagine all those honorable deaths. So much more honor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Now I'm really beginning to develop a growing nausea at the mere mention of the word "honor". It reminds me of when I felt the same regarding the orc's death animation sound throughout WoD.
    Honor is becoming new "High elf".

  4. #604
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    oh boy, its time to jump in saurfang throat with out of context unfinished dialogues just because he is against the dead elf "warchief", we may also mock his sense of honor, cause honor means shit to this new horde

    what a time to be alive
    You can't really care about honor and embrace Sylvanas as Warchief. The two are mutually exclusive. That's what I meant a few posts back when I said it was the Horde that changed, not Saurfang. His mentality fit the old Horde, not this new Sylvanas version.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  5. #605
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    You can't really care about honor and embrace Sylvanas as Warchief. The two are mutually exclusive. That's what I meant a few posts back when I said it was the Horde that changed, not Saurfang. His mentality fit the old Horde, not this new Sylvanas version.
    and the new sylvanas horde is a butthole, the old horde no

  6. #606
    ... if i read this entire thread, am i gonna want to gouge my eyes out afterwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    But what if anduin inherited genetic honor of his father ? And now honorfang feels obliged to aid him in name of honor and restoring his honor ?
    i loled at "honorfang"

    relevant:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87qstckIwqs

  7. #607
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    His mentality fit the old Horde, not this new Sylvanas version.
    I mean, when Saurfang was the Warchief's second-in-command "his" Horde enslaved dragons and used necromancy to win wars. And that mentality may actually fit Garrosh's Horde more than any other, if "honorably dying in battle" is all that truly matters to him now.

    Sure, Sylvanas may be the kind of character willing to sacrifice a certain amount of troops to ensure victory. But is that truly so much worse than dying for the sake of honor? What's the actual difference, in the end, apart being two opposite sides of the same coin?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  8. #608
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    I do like to see conflict between Saurfang and Sylvanas (it makes sense to me) but i hope it does not end up as others have said (MoP 2.0) but we shall see

  9. #609
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    I do like to see conflict between Saurfang and Sylvanas (it makes sense to me) but i hope it does not end up as others have said (MoP 2.0) but we shall see
    of course it will not, not even blizzard is so stupid to make SoO 2.0, they will just pull some kerrigan from their asses, so sylvanas look cool and edgy, in an Amazing redemption arc Build from saurfang detriment, like they did with vol'jin
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2018-03-17 at 08:13 PM.

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    of course it will not, not even blizzard is so stupid to make SoO 2.0 they will just pull some kerrigan from their asses, so sylvnas look cool and edgy, in an Amazing redemption arc Build from saurfang detriment, like they did with vol'jin
    Well... i just hope that her "Redemption arc", is a "Redemption Arc" only in the eyes of the Horde, as there should be no redemption for Sylvanas in the eyes of the Alliance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lightspark View Post
    Well, fighting a battle that you can't win and dying is no longer considered good, smart and, most importantly, honourable.

    The Horde that retreats (pathetic), saves civilians, salvages as much as possible and tries to kill as many enemy combatants as possible along the way is not the Horde Saurfang signed up for.

    -- edit #1

    Sylvanas: Let's use Blight to buy us some time to retreat, save civilians and stuff.
    Saurfang: No, let's fight and die! There's no honour in fleeing!
    Sylvanas: WTF? Wasting your life is BS, there's no glory in death.
    Saurfang: B-but.. Honour?!
    Sylvanas: Fuck your honour, jeez...
    Saurfang: NOT. MY. HORDE!
    This made me realize....

    Saurfang would really like someone like Odyn (as long as he does not read Chronicles :P)

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    I mean, when Saurfang was the Warchief's second-in-command "his" Horde enslaved dragons and used necromancy to win wars. And that mentality may actually fit Garrosh's Horde more than any other, if "honorably dying in battle" is all that truly matters to him now.

    Sure, Sylvanas may be the kind of character willing to sacrifice a certain amount of troops to ensure victory. But is that truly so much worse than dying for the sake of honor? What's the actual difference, in the end, apart being two opposite sides of the same coin?
    It's like they picked up Saurfang because it was a fan-favorite and completely forgot his background story. I mean, he appeared as the Cleaver of Alliance players.

  12. #612
    Old God Shampro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    It's like they picked up Saurfang because it was a fan-favorite and completely forgot his background story. I mean, he appeared as the Cleaver of Alliance players.
    They picked him because they want his narrative to be the ''right one'' to make it easier and easier for people to stop caring about another Horde leader, about another Iconic Horde character (Sylvanas), they picked him because they want him to be ''right'' and her wrong by the end of the expansion.

    Blizzard is absolutely not subtle in the least. (most of the time).

  13. #613
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shampro View Post
    They picked him because they want his narrative to be the ''right one'' to make it easier and easier for people to stop caring about another Horde leader, about another Iconic Horde character (Sylvanas), they picked him because they want him to be ''right'' and her wrong by the end of the expansion.

    Blizzard is absolutely not subtle in the least. (most of the time).
    Well, so far they're doing a horrible job with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  14. #614
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shampro View Post
    They picked him because they want his narrative to be the ''right one'' to make it easier and easier for people to stop caring about another Horde leader, about another Iconic Horde character (Sylvanas), they picked him because they want him to be ''right'' and her wrong by the end of the expansion.

    Blizzard is absolutely not subtle in the least. (most of the time).
    its not like sylvanas was hated since day one of her "job" right? they sure don't need someone who "is right" when she is totally the opposite of the horde ideals

    i mean, come on, everyone knew this was going to shit, one way or another, it was just a matter of time

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    I mean, when Saurfang was the Warchief's second-in-command "his" Horde enslaved dragons and used necromancy to win wars. And that mentality may actually fit Garrosh's Horde more than any other, if "honorably dying in battle" is all that truly matters to him now.

    Sure, Sylvanas may be the kind of character willing to sacrifice a certain amount of troops to ensure victory. But is that truly so much worse than dying for the sake of honor? What's the actual difference, in the end, apart being two opposite sides of the same coin?
    Just to add to this, caring for your soldiers is good. You certainly should throw their lives away for no reason. But when care is taken to excess, care becomes fear for their safety, which leads to unwise strategic decisions. In war, generals must be ready to send their soldiers to their deaths in order to achieve the greater goal of victory. Otherwise, you're just not being a good leader.

    A relevant quip from Sun Tzu(famous military strategist) in Art of War, the 5 "sins" that may befall a general:

    (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
    (2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
    (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
    (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
    (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.


    You gotta be willing to crack a few eggs if you want to make an omelette .
    Last edited by ello; 2018-03-17 at 10:35 PM.

  16. #616
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ello View Post
    Just to add to this, caring for your soldiers is good. You certainly should throw their lives away for no reason. But when care is taken to excess, care becomes fear for their safety, which leads to unwise strategic decisions. In war, generals must be ready to send their soldiers to their deaths in order to achieve the greater goal of victory. Otherwise, you're just not being a good leader.

    A relevant quip from Sun Tzu(famous military strategist) in Art of War.

    (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
    (2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
    (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
    (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
    (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.


    You gotta be willing to crack a few eggs if you want to make an omelette .
    Except chinese armies were built around pikemen and cavarly. That's why the mongols crushed them with gunpowered siege weapons.

    Sun Tzu doesn't really apply here.

  17. #617
    Oops, forgot to address this gem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    For now.
    We have not yet red the full novel, but we alss know the Desolate Council is against Sylvanas which we knew from the experpt.
    All we know about the Desolate Council is that some of them hold reservations about a single desire of Sylvanas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    We also can imagine more tension within the Horde:
    - Baine and the Taurens despise the war against the Nightelves and he made that pretty clear, he also seems to be a good friend of Saurfang.
    Literally wat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    - The orcs currently have no leader and Saurfang is an orc whose word means a lot, with him leaving the horde, some orcs might to start thinking.
    Saurfang just shat on the Blood Oath and abandoned his duties as the leader of the Orcs. Why should other Orcs give a damn about him under those circumstances?


    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    - The darkspear might despise the fact that the Zandalarie are brought into the Horde also with Voljins return they might turn against Sylvanas
    The Darkspears refused to join Zul. Even then, Vol'jin considered joining him after all in Shadows of the Horde. But ultimately, Zul's Zandalari are the enemy of Rastakhan's Zandalari. And it's Rastakhan's forces that actually join the Horde. The Darkspears are very active in Zandalar, helping the allied Zandalari out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    - The Zandalari themselves ruled by a God King will not boew down before a megalomaniac undead elf, the Zandalari hate undeads.
    And before Sylvanas became Warchief, the Forsaken were led by someone with authority issues as well. But in the end Sylvanas stayed in the Horde just fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    So there is not just a little conflict potential, the horde currently is a lit fuse ready to explode and Sylvanas lacks real allies, she is despised within the Horde and not trusted by any means.
    Except the Horde agrees that Sylvanas saved it at the Broken Shore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    Which is in my opinion the reason Saurfang doesn't challenge Sylvanas to a Maggora because he knows she will cheat and he will die. That duel is based on honor and the believe that both combatants are to honorful to cheat, Sylvanas on the other hand has no honor she does everything to survive because she is absolutely terrified of dying. Saurfang knows that.
    If Sylvanas cheated, she'd only turn the Horde against herself. And that alone would be enough to achieve Saurfang's goals. Plus he'd get his desired death. Besides, Sylvanas would wreck him and as such doesn't neat to cheat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    In my perspective, it's a matter of personal opinion vs cold logic. I brought up Saurfang's comment about the wounded to show that Saurfang does care about the Horde members and soldiers. In his opinions, he likely doesn't want the soldiers to die needlessly. How "needless" is "needlessly" is entirely up to his and her perspective, and they apparently differ. We don't know what happened, but I guess that it was a scenario in which Sylvanas decided to use their force to protect the War Machines and ordered a group of soldiers to be bait to attract the Alliance's attention, while Saurfang didn't like the idea of sending soldiers to likely death knowingly regardless of the purpose. On the other hand, like the traditional Orcs, he likely doesn't mind if they die with honor - what he and the Orcs consider "honor", at least (since the concept of honor varies from one person / culture / time to another) and wouldn't consider that a waste of soldiers' life - Sylvanas, with her pragmatic mindset, obviously found this an issue, and their ideals clashed again.
    Except cold pragmatism is Sylvanas' #1 trait. She never wastes soldiers for the sake of it. She found a way to deal with Alliance's bullshit siege towers of infeasibility and acted accordingly. Meanwhile Saurfang just whines about honor, which only wastes time (and as such, may waste Horde lives) when Sylvanas humors his delusions and asks for a honorable alternative.

    Just as he does in regards to the siege towers. He offers no alternative here, just as he offered in regards to the Blight. And without siege towers being dealt with, Horde is vulnerable. Which costs Horde lives the longer the towers are active. That's him causing an objectively needless waste of life. Unless you think Saurfang looking at them with moral superiority written all over his face and screaming muh honor is a good way to deal with the problem and one that protects the Horde army at large.

    That aside, why would Orcs dying while protecting the weapon that actually can destroy the siege towers, in contrast to Saurfang's moral high ground, be dishonorable? They'd turn the battle in Horde's favor. Meanwhile dying just for the sake of honor, like he wants in the cinematic where he gets captured for example, achieves nothing but satiating his hard on for "honor", which is utterly meaningless. And as such is pointless from the perspective of the army.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Now, I wasn't trying to argue who was right and who was wrong logically. I did say that Sylvanas' method might be more beneficial in the war at least in the short term, after all. At first, @Xendral was saying that Saurfang broke his oath to Sylvanas due to unconfirmed information, or her use of the plague during the Battle for Lordaeron. I was pointing out that they clashed because of more than just unconfirmed information, and mentioned the situations in which they clashed. Those circumstances made it very understandable why Saurfang acted as he did - regardless whether you think his actions were right or not. And yes, that those circumstances include bringing up his son while virtually mocking him for his honor - one he had been valuing for his entire life.
    Bailing on the Horde entirely and abandoning the Orcs he was the leader of is not understandable in terms of his character even if Sylvanas resurrected Dranosh in front of him.

    The above most certainly is not. Let's say Saurfang, a veteran of all of the Horde's wars is actually a moron when it comes to military matters and somehow can't comprehend why Sylvanas considered the protection of the Azerite weapon as it charged to shoot at the siege towers necessary while on the spot. But he opens his Stockades dialogue with saying how he had time to think things through. So, after he calmed down, he couldn't realize that Sylvanas outright told him she doesn't want to needlessly waste Horde lives and couldn't transplant that onto the siege towers situation? Did "honor" completely rot his brain away?

    I mean, let's take a step back to Broken Shore. Sylvanas saved the Horde. The Horde leaders acknowledge that when Vol'jin told so to Sylvanas. And she saved that by calling the Val'kyr, her most precious troops, ones that are necessary for her survival. So she saved the Horde with a great risk to herself. Because it was necessary. Did Saurfang forget that? Or did his brain rot also make him unable to comprehend that Sylvanas even takes necessary risks to herself when it's needed and that perhaps she's not someone just sacrificing people for lol evil? And couldn't transplant that onto the siege towers either?


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    However, what I believed Sylvanas did wrong was her choice of words. As I said, she could've and should've chosen more diplomatic words - she probably wasn't fully calm herself owning to their stressful situations they were in. I know people hate Anduin and he might be lacking in experience and realistic war maneuver compared to Sylvanas, but just look at what he said to Saurfang: while he refused to grant Saurfang his "honorable death" as well and claimed that there wasn't anything honorable in killing Saurfang, he didn't insult the Orc' honor, neither did he mock the High Overlord. He showed respect and questioned if Saurfang was willing to give everything for the Horde.
    How did Anduin insult his honor less than Sylvanas, let alone not insult it at all? He outright told him there was no honor in what Saurfang considered to be honorable and continued to insist on that even after Saurfang told him it's not something for a human to decide. How is outright negation not an insult? Meanwhile Sylvanas didn't negate his honor, she only said it's meaningless to a corpse, which it is since corpses are kinda not alive, and that she doesn't care if he pursues his honorable death. Her not caring about him dying could be considered at insult, but that'd be an insult directed at Saurfang, not his honor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    If Sylvanas said something in the line of "Dying with honor is commendable, High Overlord. However, the Horde still in dire needs of you, me, and our soldiers. You can't help Horde people in death, and losing you would strike a great blow to us. So die in honor if you must, but this isn't where or when you should commit to your last stand" - well, it's rather hard to craft a proper speech, as we don't know exactly what was happening before she exploded on Saurfang, but you get the idea - he probably wouldn't feel as offended. Compliments first, refuse after, that is usually more appreciated than refusing, mocking and insulting in the same breath. At least give the old, traditional Orc a facade, Warchief - unless she intended to push him from her Horde (and not just a slip of tongue), which she succeeded, I guess?
    But dying with honor in the way Saurfang envisions it, when he even seeks being executed on the spot after being defeated (which has a lot of parallels to death by cop), is not commendable at all. Its borderline mental illness. And when Saurfang has been whining about his nonsense for the entire siege while offering nothing of value, he needed a reality check and not coddling with falsehoods to make him feel good. If he can't handle that, kudos to him and his newfound lack of a spine. It fits both his equally newfound Broxigar syndrome that recofused his take on honor to "honorable death" above everything else and his new overlord Blanduin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Off-topic, personally, I see it that the Battle for Lordaeron showed the general contrast between Anduin and Sylvanas (other than the obvious visible sign Light vs Shadow, bright & idealistic vs realistic & gloomy). One prioritize people over overall result, and the other was willing to get the result at all cost. Anduin might certainly be naive - and one may argue that his love for people might end up leading to MORE people dying than Sylvanas' pragmatic methods if they lose because of it - but clearly, he can win his people's hearts. Sylvanas is more experienced, and likely has a better eye for strategy, but one may wonder if the followers will keep sticking to a leader who doesn't care about you as an individual, but just a part of the army she need instead? At the moment, each of them have their own strengths and weakness in term of leading an army, whose ass will be bitten by their weakness first?
    But Sylvanas' results are minimizing losses as much as possible and ensuring the evacuation of the civilian population. Which may not win the hearts of the families of the soldiers that lost their lives in a maneuver that's hard to accept for people that weren't there and don't know much about war. But it should win the hearts of people who have decades of experience in warfare (and as such should understand the necessity of her tactics). Like, I dunno, this Saurfang guy I keep hearing about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    I think it's rather to hard say if it's truly necessary because we are talking about emotional matters - those don't always make sense logically. What was Saurfang reflecting about during his imprisoned days? Did he think about Anduin's "My father gave everything for the Alliance. The question is, are you willing to do the same?" and questioned himself if he would be willing to throw away his Blood Oath (again) to bring Horde back to what he thought it should be (probably some sort of Thrall's Horde in its glory days)?
    How does that need reflecting? He already proved to the world and himself that he can do that if necessary. What's missing is the necessary part. And if he arrived at the conclusion that his wounded feels create such a necessity, he didn't reflect on the situation for squat, he just festered in his emotions and mental health issues.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Moreover, we still don't know what Saurfang is going to do, or what the content of the talk between him and Anduin will be, but I don't think he is going to ally himself with Anduin and turn his back into the Horde yet.
    How is him outright abandoning the Horde and even Orcs of whom he's the leader not him turning his back on the Horde? Saurfang is pulling a Vol'jin from Shadows of the Horde if Vol'jin actually joined the Zandalari. "I don't like the other children so I'm taking my toys and leaving them" is textbook turning one's back.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    You can't really care about honor and embrace Sylvanas as Warchief. The two are mutually exclusive. That's what I meant a few posts back when I said it was the Horde that changed, not Saurfang. His mentality fit the old Horde, not this new Sylvanas version.
    But the Warchief with the closest take on strategy to Sylvanas was Orgrim who did what was necessary to win even if it meant Death Knights. You know, the Old Horde one. And the guy whose second in command was Saurfang.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    It's like they picked up Saurfang because it was a fan-favorite and completely forgot his background story. I mean, he appeared as the Cleaver of Alliance players.
    Shhh, Sylvanas said a mean thing to him so it makes sense. Even though Blanduin completely negated his honor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shampro View Post
    They picked him because they want his narrative to be the ''right one'' to make it easier and easier for people to stop caring about another Horde leader, about another Iconic Horde character (Sylvanas), they picked him because they want him to be ''right'' and her wrong by the end of the expansion.

    Blizzard is absolutely not subtle in the least. (most of the time).
    And just as Vol'jin, he won't be punished for his treason because he's the "right one" and because Blizzard's writing in regards to such issues is black and white.


    Quote Originally Posted by ello View Post
    Just to add to this, caring for your soldiers is good. You certainly should throw their lives away for no reason. But when care is taken to excess, care becomes fear for their safety, which leads to unwise strategic decisions. In war, generals must be ready to send their soldiers to their deaths in order to achieve the greater goal of victory. Otherwise, you're just not being a good leader.

    A relevant quip from Sun Tzu(famous military strategist) in Art of War.

    (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
    (2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
    (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
    (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
    (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.


    You gotta be willing to crack a few eggs if you want to make an omelette .
    Meanwhile Saurfang fails at four of these.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2018-03-17 at 10:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Except chinese armies were built around pikemen and cavarly. That's why the mongols crushed them with gunpowered siege weapons.

    Sun Tzu doesn't really apply here.
    Sure he does? Technology advancements are irrelevant. What Sun Tzu wrote hasn't been invalidated. Even after centuries of weapons advances, If you look at his basic principles of how a battle should or should not be fought, it is as good today. The methods may change, means to execute the principle may change, but the principles are still applicable. The phrase "know your enemy" has been around for god knows how long, but it's still applicable today. His work is still influential today.

    one of the biggest things he stresses is that war is not a desirable outcome and should be avoided. But if a war is to be fought, then you fight to win and win quickly. I think that's still sound knowledge.
    Last edited by ello; 2018-03-17 at 10:36 PM.

  19. #619
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ello View Post
    Sure he does? Technology advancements are irrelevant.
    What? You can't be serious, especially when the Mongols conquered China using Chinese tech.

    Quote Originally Posted by ello View Post
    What Sun Tzu wrote hasn't been invalidated. Even after centuries of weapons advances, If you look at his basic principles of how a battle should or should not be fought, it is as good today. The methods may change, means to execute the principle may change, but the principles are still applicable. The phrase "know your enemy" has been around for god knows how long, but it's still applicable today. His work is still influential today.
    That's why the Mongols conquered Asia with tactical withdrawal tactics?

    Again, Sun Tzu is good and all, but it was written for pikemen and cavarly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ello View Post
    one of the biggest things he stresses is that war is not a desirable outcome and should be avoided. But if a war is to be fought, then you fight to win and win quickly. I think that's still sound knowledge.
    Looks like Sylvanas did exactly that, she won a phyric victory. Because Saurfang's plan was to die on the field.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post

    Looks like Sylvanas did exactly that, she won a phyric victory. Because Saurfang's plan was to die on the field.
    I agree. That point was made in a defense of Sylvanas. What did you think I was arguing? Perhaps I didn't articulate well.

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