Personal loot the perferred loot method moving forward

[Letdown]

I don't think I mentioned anything about Mythic raiding but to answer your comment about the time spent healing vs dps or tank - it can vary healing all fights a specific week or dpsing for weeks because we have more healers on. Either way I am still happy with this change and for people that are flexible for the guild like I am, this will make it feel more rewarding personally.

You realize in mythic guilds about half the roster has had this level of flexibility? I'm bottom priority on loot BECAUSE I toon hop and I'm the one that made that decision because the guys that are guaranteed to be on the same character pull to pull should get priority over me. That's cut and dry.

We also have a rule where council members and officers are inherently lower on loot priority with a few exceptions (drastic performance difference, size of upgrade, etc.)

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The thing is, they now get to balance around how players will get gear vs how players were distributing it on their own prior. It makes a huge difference right now whether or not you're funneling gear into the right DPS vs tanks / healers for instance, and blizzard fully understands that and is forced to tune content accordingly.

With the shift where loot will be more evenly spread out, it'll force them to change how they tune encounters and allow them to do things differently (as watcher mentioned in the Q&A)

There's still going to be bad that comes with it, but that's not exactly anything new. I've coined a number of items that were worthless for me but useful for other players since coins were introduced and I wasn't able to trade those. It was disappointing but not the end of the world.

So now fights will be easier? I mean that's how you'd adjust tuning. Either more loot drops and the overall gearing speed doesn't change (then why make the change?), people gear slower so content is easier (that also seems like a bad solution because people that progress through heroic slower will progress through mythic faster, where as guilds like mine the difficulty of mythic is what keeps us from burning out), or people gear slower and content is harder for it (which then just makes heroic splits even more appealing...)

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...
If you try to come up with a solution to the split raiding this is the most elegant one that effects the other raiders the least and is the most effective at hindering the loot funnel gameplay that is use at the start of each raid tier. If the removal of split raids is a good thing or not is another question, but until you can solve that I dont think you can "convince" the Blizz team with arguments of "what about this", because the change is targeted at a very complex problem that they have zeroed in on and the collateral damage is taken into account.

So there's a couple things that don't add up here though. Splits are already the result of blizzard not having foresight when it comes to the competitive raiding scene, so I don't exactly feel confident that Blizzard has accurately foreseen the side-effects and fall out of killing master loot.

The second thing is splits aren't going to go away, they're just going to change. Personal loot will encourage just different kinds of splits and for heroic splits to last longer into the race -- they won't go away. Sure, the week 1 splits won't be as rewarding due to ilvl preventing trading, but by week 4 splits are back to being super rewarding, especially when it comes to targeting things like trinkets. My couple friends in top guilds are already starting to get assignments on what they'll be expected to learn for splits lol.

[Baconeggcheese]

So now fights will be easier? I mean that's how you'd adjust tuning. Either more loot drops and the overall gearing speed doesn't change (then why make the change?), people gear slower so content is easier (that also seems like a bad solution because people that progress through heroic slower will progress through mythic faster, where as guilds like mine the difficulty of mythic is what keeps us from burning out), or people gear slower and content is harder for it (which then just makes heroic splits even more appealing...)

It allows for better (tighter) tuning and a more even playing field since they balance against the average curve and by funneling gear from a 30 man raid into 4~ish players those players will be 5, 10, 15 ilvls above the curve while still expecting to be challenged.

Whether or not fights are easier or harder in general will depend on how difficult blizzard wants it to be regardless of what the loot system is.

Generally speaking this change would result in people gearing slower, since there wouldn't be the possibility of gear funneling on the level there is now.

[Letdown]

It allows for better (tighter) tuning and a more even playing field since they balance against the average curve and by funneling gear from a 30 man raid into 4~ish players those players will be 5, 10, 15 ilvls above the curve while still expecting to be challenged.

Whether or not fights are easier or harder in general will depend on how difficult blizzard wants it to be regardless of what the loot system is.

Generally speaking this change would result in people gearing slower, since there wouldn't be the possibility of gear funneling on the level there is now.

Right, what I am saying how Blizzard adjusts to compensate. Do they make fights tuned easier because they can expect lower ilvls? If so, you've decreased the life of the tier, ESPECIALLY for lower-end guilds that are gear reliant to clear content anyway. Do they leave fight tuning about the same as it is now but people are just lower ilvl? That just increases the value in heroic splits.

It isn't an actual solution once you've given it some more heavy and thorough thought. This is just Blizzard being shortsighted again, and punishing middle-tier guilds (as in good enough to smash heroic but bad enough to struggle through mythic) to "stop" splits in the world first race.

[Kaver]

I understand removing Master loot from PUG groups but why should Blizzard interfere with what guilds are doing. If you're in a guild that is cheating certain members of loot, leave that guild!

Why are the loot systems suddenly based on these toxic guilds? My guild take great pleasure in having Master loot as an option, but we do not abuse it and most guilds don't. Most guilds care about all of their members and want to distribute the gear fairly between the members. So stop basing the systems on a few toxic guilds.

And for players who are only pugging and have never been in a guild... please don't try to cause problems for guilds when you're not a part of it.

[Baconeggcheese]

Right, what I am saying how Blizzard adjusts to compensate. Do they make fights tuned easier because they can expect lower ilvls? If so, you've decreased the life of the tier, ESPECIALLY for lower-end guilds that are gear reliant to clear content anyway. Do they leave fight tuning about the same as it is now but people are just lower ilvl? That just increases the value in heroic splits.

It isn't an actual solution once you've given it some more heavy and thorough thought. This is just Blizzard being shortsighted again, and punishing middle-tier guilds (as in good enough to smash heroic but bad enough to struggle through mythic) to "stop" splits in the world first race.

I've answered this already, they've always balanced against the curve.

Can you explain why you think it would increase the value of heroic splits? I'm not really understanding how the value could be increased by limiting (basically eliminating) players ability to funnel gear from that exact activity.

[Deleted]

In my opinion a terrible change. The reason why guilds use master loot is not only to give out tier pieces. Its great to balance the overall ilvl your raid has. You can give items to players that gain the most out of this item, instead of having some lucky players with high ilvl during progress and some with lower ilvl, because they have been unlucky. Especially during the first weeks of every new raid you can have a big difference between your raid members.

In addition titanforged can make this personal loot only system feel even more terrible at the start of every raid tier. Lets say your warrior gets a trinket that is terrible for him, but would be great for the guilds death knight. With master loot you could give it to the death knight, but with personal this item is only useful to enable future trading options. In addition a player could get an item with +5 ilvl upgrade in a slot, which would be an small upgrade for him, while someone else has a low ilvl item in this slot. Again with master loot no problem. You could give it to the player that get the most out of it and make the raid overall more powerful. Both scenarios would be a lose for raid groups during the early progress stages and will lead to the feeling, that this loot system sabotages their progress.

I know that blizzard promissed to balance items and shorten the gap between sec. stats, but lets be real. They are trying to solve this problems for years and there are ALWAYS items that will be better/worse for you. Thanks to master loot you can pick and choose the players that get the most of an item and that also an important part of being in a raid guild. Loot you earn as a raid guild together is nothing personal. Its something you worked together for and should be something you earn together.


Personal Loot and Split Raiding:
This change will not stop guild from running multiple split raids. Instead of playing your main during progress, you will play the charakter that had the most RNG personal loot luck during the split runs.

[RobertoCarlos]

In my opinion a terrible change. The reason why guilds use master loot is not only to give out tier pieces. Its great to balance the overall ilvl your raid has. You can give items to players that gain the most out of this item, instead of having some lucky players with high ilvl during progress and some with lower ilvl, because they have been unlucky. Especially during the first weeks of every new raid you can have a big difference between your raid members.

In addition titanforged can make this personal loot only system feel even more terrible at the start of every raid tier. Lets say your warrior gets a trinket that is terrible for him, but would be great for the guilds death knight. With master loot you could give it to the death knight, but with personal this item is only useful to enable future trading options. In addition a player could get an item with +5 ilvl upgrade in a slot, which would be an small upgrade for him, while someone else has a low ilvl item in this slot. Again with master loot no problem. You could give it to the player that get the most out of it and make the raid overall more powerful. Both scenarios would be a lose for raid groups during the early progress stages and will lead to the feeling, that this loot system sabotages their progress.

I know that blizzard promissed to balance items and shorten the gap between sec. stats, but lets be real. They are trying to solve this problems for years and there are ALWAYS items that will be better/worse for you. Thanks to master loot you can pick and choose the players that get the most of an item and that also an important part of being in a raid guild. Loot you earn as a raid guild together is nothing personal. Its something you worked together for and should be something you earn together.


Personal Loot and Split Raiding:
This change will not stop guild from running multiple split raids. Instead of playing your main during progress, you will play the charakter that had the most RNG personal loot luck during the split runs.

All good points. Especially the stuff about giving loot to lower level people to balance the raid more, instead of just relying on luck.

Its madness. Not gonna come back for BFA thats for sure

[Leodric]

*snip*

Perfectly explained why this change would be an issue. People will still ignore it, because of "mah loot".

Let's hope Blizzard won't make that change real and just keep it as an idea.

[Polarthief]

There's no tier and there's only 1 primary stat on weapons, so weapons once again will be a NIGHTMARE to deal with in non-Personal. It's like they want no one to have any thought regarding loot.

I like how little regard they have for the players who play this game religiously, hardcore, and have been since day 1. Pretty much anyone but a casual LFR/Normal player is completely disregarded in this decision. Instead of making it worse for Master Loot, maybe try adding all primary stats to all weapons to make it easier for the "loot drama", and make it more rewarding to actually be part of a group who doesn't want to just rando RNG loot like gambling on loot boxes.

[D3cadent]

In my opinion a terrible change. The reason why guilds use master loot is not only to give out tier pieces. Its great to balance the overall ilvl your raid has. You can give items to players that gain the most out of this item, instead of having some lucky players with high ilvl during progress and some with lower ilvl, because they have been unlucky. Especially during the first weeks of every new raid you can have a big difference between your raid members.

In addition titanforged can make this personal loot only system feel even more terrible at the start of every raid tier. Lets say your warrior gets a trinket that is terrible for him, but would be great for the guilds death knight. With master loot you could give it to the death knight, but with personal this item is only useful to enable future trading options. In addition a player could get an item with +5 ilvl upgrade in a slot, which would be an small upgrade for him, while someone else has a low ilvl item in this slot. Again with master loot no problem. You could give it to the player that get the most out of it and make the raid overall more powerful. Both scenarios would be a lose for raid groups during the early progress stages and will lead to the feeling, that this loot system sabotages their progress.

I know that blizzard promissed to balance items and shorten the gap between sec. stats, but lets be real. They are trying to solve this problems for years and there are ALWAYS items that will be better/worse for you. Thanks to master loot you can pick and choose the players that get the most of an item and that also an important part of being in a raid guild. Loot you earn as a raid guild together is nothing personal. Its something you worked together for and should be something you earn together.


Personal Loot and Split Raiding:
This change will not stop guild from running multiple split raids. Instead of playing your main during progress, you will play the charakter that had the most RNG personal loot luck during the split runs.

^ player with a clue.

ML allows you to prevent ridiculous good or bad luck and spread the gear around the raid and, IMO most importantly, put it in the best places. This also has the positive benefit of not allowing your group to be beholden to the one or two particular players who happened to get extremely lucky with gear who you would be pretty much be forced into always taking to progression.

Blizzard just can't 'fix' split raiding (some tiny % of the population) without fucking the rest of us over. Leave it alone.

[Baconeggcheese]

Personal Loot and Split Raiding:
This change will not stop guild from running multiple split raids. Instead of playing your main during progress, you will play the charakter that had the most RNG personal loot luck during the split runs.

I just don't see how anyone who has done split raids would believe this to be true.

You're talking about the difference between funneling gear from 30 players into a tiny number of players vs hoping one character RNG's better pieces over another. The latter would not be worth the tremendous amount of effort required except for the players / guilds that actually enjoy killing themselves to run splits.

Splits are already dying out with how untenable they were in legion, the changes would make it basically worthless to do for the majority of guilds that currently still do it.

The only thing that would have any decent chance of compelling splits is if they screwed up the azerite armor or trinkets to the degree that you'd see like a 10% dmg increase or something silly just for getting the 1 piece. And it'd require many people on you roster to have that kind of discrepancy for it to be worthwhile. Outside of that, the difference between 1 character having an extra item or two over another would absolutely not be enough to sustain splits.

As has been said a million times, the big reason many guilds still do splits is just to be able to funnel tier into the correct people since tier bonuses can be huge. Without even that, there's such little incentive vs the time investment to level / gear up / maintain multiple toons.

[burek]

It sounds much better to just stick to one char and farm m+ or whatever hoping to get wf gear, than to have multiple chars of the same class to see which one will get more luck in their heroic clear.

Removing ML sounds like a good idea, it won't matter during progression since it affects everyone equally. You won't be able to funnel gear to dps first, so what? Nobody will, so you don't lose anything.

[Sosuke Aizen]

It sounds much better to just stick to one char and farm m+ or whatever hoping to get wf gear, than to have multiple chars of the same class to see which one will get more luck in their heroic clear.

Removing ML sounds like a good idea, it won't matter during progression since it affects everyone equally. You won't be able to funnel gear to dps first, so what? Nobody will, so you don't lose anything.

That's definitely another way to look at it. I saw another thread discussing the same thing and it seems bigger, maybe we should take the discussion there? Here's the link just in case anyone needed: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...t-being-purged

[Strifelol]

As has been said a million times, the big reason many guilds still do splits is just to be able to funnel tier into the correct people since tier bonuses can be huge.

I'm glad someone that is for PL finally makes sense, you are 100% correct! Removing tier from the game pretty much gives splits less of an incentive/time investment! So why exactly do you feel the need that ML needs to be removed again? It's a placebo effect and people are falling for it. Removing ML doesn't stop those same guilds from doing whatever it takes to acquire more gear, you think that because ML is removed all of a sudden all that time they spent running splits and all that time they had available to do all those things in the past is just going to magically go away in the future?

THEY
WILL
FIND
ANOTHER
WAY

If they think running multiple raids isn't effective, they will just then focus on spamming M+ which will just be the same exact thing and they will just get ahead of the curve again.

[vsb]

I have mixed feelings about it. I'm playing in casual mythic guilds and everyone uses master loot, it's absolutely dominates, so it would be a hard change. Now what worries me personally is how loot trade would be organized. I hate asking other people for loot and I won't do that, I hate deciding who should I give away my loot too. So I hope that raid leader will just collect all loot and trade it using master loot. But it's so cumbersome and it's definitely a downgrade from the current master loot system. And if that won't happen and everyone will have to beg everyone else for loot and making drama about it, it'll be huge downgrade from the current master loot system as well.

If they are going with personal loot, I'd prefer to forbid trade at all. But then it further diminishes value of social interactions in the game and social interaction is the only reason I'm interested in WoW.

[Baconeggcheese]

I'm glad someone that is for PL finally makes sense, you are 100% correct! Removing tier from the game pretty much gives splits less of an incentive/time investment! So why exactly do you feel the need that ML needs to be removed again? It's a placebo effect and people are falling for it. Removing ML doesn't stop those same guilds from doing whatever it takes to acquire more gear, you think that because ML is removed all of a sudden all that time they spent running splits and all that time they had available to do all those things in the past is just going to magically go away in the future?

THEY
WILL
FIND
ANOTHER
WAY

If they think running multiple raids isn't effective, they will just then focus on spamming M+ which will just be the same exact thing and they will just get ahead of the curve again.

Mythic+ is far less lucrative than funneling current tier raid gear into players. You're entirely at the mercy of WF / TF to attempt to get any upgrades, and blizzard has already said they plan to make those pieces less common. You can spam M+ as much as you want, you're not going to see anywhere near the same results that guilds would see running multiple splits and funneling gear.

That is not to mention that there are very different kinds of guilds running different numbers of splits. a lot (if not most) guilds that do splits only do 1 split, those kinds of guilds are likely to drop the split and not worry much about it unless blizzard screws up and makes something else equally as rewarding (nothing in the game currently comes close).

There are guilds that run 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 splits (I don't believe I've heard of more than 6), you'll see different behaviors depending on the guilds structure. Guilds on the high end of that are competing for world ranks typically and are going to invest the time into the game regardless, they'll just have far less to show for it since other activities are simply not as lucrative.

Guilds on the lower end tend to absolutely hate splits and will be glad to see them go.

[Chakah]

If a group is 18/20 guild group and you're one of two pugs? You're going to be told it's ML and you're bottom on loot prio because you're not in the guild. Same thing with trials. It's been that way literally since molten core.

I used to run our guild's DKP system in MC, BWL and a bit in AQ - I've seen it all.

I've always found that if we are filling with trials or pugs, that letting them get loot encourages them to stay. If they are there for a progression boss, they get their loot as its a greater effort to fill progression spots and if they aren't there, no one gets any loot.

If I'm pugging into someone elses run, it depends - am I there for the experience? Then I don't care about the loot. If I'm helping them out, the loot is the incentive. As as pug, I've turned down many runs that would have denied me any loot.

If you are pugging people, can you really afford to turn the good ones away? How much is your loot system holding you back?

Let me try to explain this better. Personal loot currently drops loot using (group size/5) + 1, right? So if I have a 20 man group, 5 people should get loot guaranteed.

Except it doesn't work that way and everyone has heard of times where only 3 items drops in a group of 20.

And you don't see how that's problematic?

No more than the game giving different drops to different raidIDs.

Then why kill off master loot? If we can freely trade personal loot, you're literally just making it a bigger pain in the ass for progression groups to move gear around. Congratulations, now people have to wait around 5 mins after boss kills to trade loot. Split runs are totally fixed now.

I wouldn't suggest (and didn't) that loot be freely tradable. They could change the range to ilvl +5 items are tradable for example.

Personally, I'd setup the system so that a character can only receive a limited number (2-3) tradable loots in a week.

As others have pointed out, the maladaptive behavior of a few thousand top-tier players is causing this. Blizzard doesn't want to design for split runs, and killing off master loot would be one of the easier solutions.

If the bad behavior continues, I'll be expecting them to make loot lockouts B.net account wide. LOL

[Zyky]

As others have pointed out, the maladaptive behavior of a few thousand top-tier players is causing this. Blizzard doesn't want to design for split runs, and killing off master loot would be one of the easier solutions.

If the bad behavior continues, I'll be expecting them to make loot lockouts B.net account wide. LOL

The thing is there's under 100 guilds(TOPS) that actually require split clearing in the world. As of making this post there's 7981 guilds who have at least 1 Mythic kill in Antorus. So here's the question, why is it acceptable that Blizzard gets to screw over the vast majority of the Mythic raiding community who don't do split clearing? Why is split clearing viewed as a problem? If they want to dedicate 12 hours a day for the first 14 days of a raid tier release, who cares? Blizzard shouldn't care and they shouldn't feel like they have to make content harder because of this minuscule amount of players who actually do force this upon their raiders, they also shouldn't feel like they have to rush out content sooner just because of these few guilds cleared the content by literally doing 10 clears the first 2 weeks of the raids and are feeling burnt out faster than people who don't.

This is my honest opinion, if people don't like it so be it, if people agree great. Mythic raids should be tuned roughly around the level of Mythic Emerald Nightmare, with the exception of Xavius. Emerald Nightmare was tuned very well for the majority of the Mythic playerbase(with the exception of Xavius being completely undertuned and way too similar to Heroic and arguably easier than Heroic) and the top guilds that cleared it the first week of Mythic, cool for them, but Blizzard shouldn't be designing raids(particularly the last couple bosses in raids when it came to NH-Antorus) around the .1% of the 1%. That's how you kill off split clearing properly, when the content isn't tuned improperly, top guilds will clear it first week, and then it'll be over for them, because honestly who cares. Yes I know lots of people love Method, Exorsus, and Limit, but a lot of them are some of the most toxic players this game has...look at the resto shaman from Limit, he was literally DDOSing his fellow raid healers so that he would get a raid spot. Players in Exorsus said in an interview that they believe Blizzard should pay them to play the game. Why are we caring about what these people have to say? They don't speak for the actual 1%, they speak for this extremely tiny .1% of Mythic Raiding guilds who are just filled with elitist rambling about how they feel they're entitled to extra rewards or quicker content just because they put in 40-60 hours the first 2 weeks of a raid tier and now they're tired of the content. It is my honest opinion: FUCK. THEM. Worry about majority and not the minority.

[sammygm]

Save your responses, I prefer talking to people that attempt to discuss rather than force opinions. If it will make you feel better to come back with a reply so you can feel better about yourself then go ahead.

This is exactly what you're doing right now. You are being disrespectful, and flat out ignoring what others are saying, because you do not agree ML. You are forcing your opinion upon others by saying "PL is the future" and leaving it at that. Sure you've mentioned that you PL is personally great for you because for some reason you have to fill multiple roles, but that exact reason is why we're in favour of keeping ML in our progression guilds. Having someone that swaps roles constantly and receives gears for their multiple roles is detriment on the overall progression of the raid. Don't forget, for a lot of people raiding is a group activity and aren't in it for themselves.

ML, especially Loot Council makes sure that gear reaches to the people that need it the most to defeat bosses. I personally have skipped over 2 back to back weeks worth of loot, that I could've used as well. Was annoyed or angry that I didn't receive anything? Of course not, I knew that giving it up to the person that benefited the most from it would mean that the whole raid team would benefit from it.

All this change will do is reward guild hoppers and altoholics, and punish dedicated raid teams.

[Pickynerd]

This plus the whole "secondaries should be worse than ilvl" is depressing.

Why not just remove secondaries and make everything a flat ilvl, and ilvl determines your power?

Why even have loot anymore?


This game is getting depressingly simplified, and there is no good alternative raiding game. It sucks.

Blizzard will never get the numbers right, they never have and never will. Christ, just look at what they did to leveling, it takes longer to go from 60 to 80 than it does 20 to 60 and 80 to 110 combined.

Blizzard just wants everything to take longer, probably so they can have less people making new content over a longer time period, so they can shit-can half the work force for that extra profit.