Why are people against the Warchief title changing hands frequently?

[Nalorakk]

Although the means of the Warchiefs changing have not been well written, I think it's a good way of differentiating the Horde and the Alliance.

Where the Alliance will follow Human King Nextinline to hell and back, the Horde will choose a new leader to better protect and guide its varied people.

In the general sense, Sylvanas would have made a great elected leader against the Legion since she's experienced at leading military forces, planning and persevering while being crushed.

If the threat were Old Gods, Sylvanas would become more of a liability than a strength, and the Warchief title should be given to someone else more suited such as Baine, whose hardiness would be harder for Old Gods and their fanatics to exploit.

If the threat was the Alliance, then someone like Saurfang who would uphold honour while fighting would be better for both sides and again, the Warchief title would be less effective on someone else.

Rather than blast the concept of Warchief musical chairs I think it should be celebrated and urged to be written better than it has been. Cast the strengths and weaknesses of the Horde's leaders and accentuate their strengths.
(And grin for the Great Recession expansion where finally, Warchief Gallywix can shine)

[SL1200]

Sylvanas Forever!

[George Lucas]

Although the means of the Warchiefs changing have not been well written, I think it's a good way of differentiating the Horde and the Alliance.

This is the answer, since their is no indication that it will be handled better next time. And differentiation for the sake of differentiation is worthless.

[Nalorakk]

Sylvanas Forever!

No thanks

This is the answer, since their is no indication that it will be handled better next time. And differentiation for the sake of differentiation is worthless.

With Christie Golden on the writing team now, it already seems like there's much better continuity (characters from Shadows of the Horde in Zandalar instead of just random new names for some reason for example). Making the issue prevalent in feedback may lead Blizzard to take a moment and consider it instead of just complaining about the concept which is a side effect of using the same cast of characters for things.

That being said, I don't really expect any major story in WoW to be great.

[Mehrunes]

You could urge Blizzard's writers to write better all you want. But all you'd be doing would be wasting your time. It'd be like asking guppies to conquer the universe. Not exactly a high probability of success here. Now, if you'd ask guppies to write a better story than Blizzard's writers, then sure, that could work and give some satisfactory results.

And as has been said, differentiating for the sake of differentiating is pointless. So is change for the sake of change. There's no salvaging a musical chairs, it's lazy storytelling device through and through.

Also, why would Baine be a better leader against the Old Gods? Undead showed some resistance to effects of Saronite and other Old God related stuff in WotLK. Plus Baine has no spine, not exactly a hardy person. And Saurfang's honor as of Legion and forward is acting like a suicidal moron with brain damage. Which offers no solutions to problems on the battlefield other than whining about muh honor. Any war with someone like that at the helm would be an instant loss. Plus with how uncontrollable Alliance's hate boner for the Horde is (going as far as attacking the Horde during a world-ending invasion of the Legion), they need to be forced into submission once and for all. Someone who was just capture away from turning into Alliance sympathizer basking in the holy light of Blanduin would be a terrible choice to lead the Horde against the Alliance.

[George Lucas]

No thanks



With Christie Golden on the writing team now, it already seems like there's much better continuity (characters from Shadows of the Horde in Zandalar instead of just random new names for some reason for example). Making the issue prevalent in feedback may lead Blizzard to take a moment and consider it instead of just complaining about the concept which is a side effect of using the same cast of characters for things.

That being said, I don't really expect any major story in WoW to be great.

But if the story improves, why not just improve what is already given, instead of changing things up for the sake of changing things up? I'm not a fan of Sylvanas being warchief, but how about making it work, instead of taking a new direction and hoping that it may turn out better, because it could be better, since it is something new.

Inconsistency is the biggest problem with WoW's story and starting over every time it doesn't work right will not improve anything.

[Heavy Gains]

You could urge Blizzard's writers to write better all you want. But all you'd be doing would be wasting your time. It'd be like asking guppies to conquer the universe. Not exactly a high probability of success here. Now, if you'd ask guppies to write a better story than Blizzard's writers, then sure, that could work and give some satisfactory results.

And as has been said, differentiating for the sake of differentiating is pointless. So is change for the sake of change. There's no salvaging a musical chairs, it's lazy storytelling device through and through.

Also, why would Baine be a better leader against the Old Gods? Undead showed some resistance to effects of Saronite and other Old God related stuff in WotLK. Plus Baine has no spine, not exactly a hardy person. And Saurfang's honor as of Legion and forward is acting like a suicidal moron with brain damage. Which offers no solutions to problems on the battlefield other than whining about muh honor. Any war with someone like that at the helm would be an instant loss. Plus with how uncontrollable Alliance's hate boner for the Horde is (going as far as attacking the Horde during a world-ending invasion of the Legion), they need to be forced into submission once and for all. Someone who was just capture away from turning into Alliance sympathizer basking in the holy light of Blanduin would be a terrible choice to lead the Horde against the Alliance.

I gotta agree with this bro. Saurfang is a soldier. Being a good soldier doesn't make him a good leader. And really bros, why do we need to uphold the orc standard of honor in a war anyways? Crush the Alliance with whatever methods are most effective, then put that cover girl model Anduin's head on display in Org.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

For me, it's a lack of development, or more accurately a feeling that all development is wasted. It's hard to put hope in a leader who has a limited shelf-life just by virtue of being a horde warchief. If we had some sort of a limited leadership time to prevent future Garrosh situations I'd find that more reasonable than just killing them like we have so far.

[Nalorakk]

You could urge Blizzard's writers to write better all you want. But all you'd be doing would be wasting your time. It'd be like asking guppies to conquer the universe. Not exactly a high probability of success here. Now, if you'd ask guppies to write a better story than Blizzard's writers, then sure, that could work and give some satisfactory results.

I mean, you're not wrong. But if things are made apparent, Blizz at least does listen but doesn't often act upon it.

And as has been said, differentiating for the sake of differentiating is pointless. So is change for the sake of change. There's no salvaging a musical chairs, it's lazy storytelling device through and through.

Point being, it wouldn't be differentiation or change for the sake of it if it were handled better.

Also, why would Baine be a better leader against the Old Gods? Undead showed some resistance to effects of Saronite and other Old God related stuff in WotLK.

And Sylvanas smashed her skull open on a bed of Yogg's blood. The undead may have shown some resistance, but do you really think someone like Sylvanas wouldn't be a prime target for convincing whispers? People don't trust Sylvanas at the best of times, why would they trust her better when anyone could be a liability?

Plus Baine has no spine, not exactly a hardy person.

Warcrimes? That man wanted nothing to do with defending Garrosh but went through with it while pointing out flaws in reasoning other members of the Horde had without cowing to protect them or their feelings, that's more spine than most other characters have shown in years.

And Saurfang's honor as of Legion and forward is acting like a suicidal moron with brain damage. Which offers no solutions to problems on the battlefield other than whining about muh honor. Any war with someone like that at the helm would be an instant loss.

Maybe he's going senile? One too many hits in the head with blunt objects?

I think there's a lot of different ways the concept of honour can be written. When it comes to Warcraft, there's usually two main ways. There's the really obnoxious B-B-B-B-BUT HONOUR?!??! which is Saurfang thus far in BfA and then there's the more understandable "yeah we're just going to do things this way because it's cleaner and fairer to the people that will end up victims regardless".

Plus with how uncontrollable Alliance's hate boner for the Horde is (going as far as attacking the Horde during a world-ending invasion of the Legion), they need to be forced into submission once and for all. Someone who was just capture away from turning into Alliance sympathizer basking in the holy light of Blanduin would be a terrible choice to lead the Horde against the Alliance.

I'm all for putting the Alliance down, always. I'm not so sure Saurfang is an Alliance sympathiser, more just a Sylvanas disliker but I guess we'll see and I don't particularly have high hopes for how that arc is going.

[Minikin]

You could urge Blizzard's writers to write better all you want. But all you'd be doing would be wasting your time. It'd be like asking guppies to conquer the universe. Not exactly a high probability of success here. Now, if you'd ask guppies to write a better story than Blizzard's writers, then sure, that could work and give some satisfactory results.

And as has been said, differentiating for the sake of differentiating is pointless. So is change for the sake of change. There's no salvaging a musical chairs, it's lazy storytelling device through and through.

Also, why would Baine be a better leader against the Old Gods? Undead showed some resistance to effects of Saronite and other Old God related stuff in WotLK. Plus Baine has no spine, not exactly a hardy person. And Saurfang's honor as of Legion and forward is acting like a suicidal moron with brain damage. Which offers no solutions to problems on the battlefield other than whining about muh honor. Any war with someone like that at the helm would be an instant loss. Plus with how uncontrollable Alliance's hate boner for the Horde is (going as far as attacking the Horde during a world-ending invasion of the Legion), they need to be forced into submission once and for all. Someone who was just capture away from turning into Alliance sympathizer basking in the holy light of Blanduin would be a terrible choice to lead the Horde against the Alliance.

i completely agree with everything except the last part. though even saying that my disagreement is more just a parallel than anything. given the point we are at in the story, with the info now available to both factions about demons, void and etc the factions should stop with the faction war and move forward to tackle the thread of nzoth and other things.

however as i said, this disagreement isnt much strong anyway because in the end one half of the story of warcraft is horde vs alliance while the other half are these threats to the world. so the faction war might never go away.

edit: mind you just to point out. both factions have done their fair share of stupidity, so the point of beating one into submission due to a world ending event attack falls on both of them. e.g: Gilneas. We know deathwing is running amok, but here we are trying to play war. Stormhiem. We have demons pouring out from the walls and grand admiral angerfaces starts an attack. Northrend Howling Fjord, sameish issue, forsaken vs humans, while the lich king is not too far away. Both factions have at one point or another have been stupid beyond belief. And both have at points done better things. just blizzard's way of evening it out i guess.

[mickybrighteyes]

Plus with how uncontrollable Alliance's hate boner for the Horde is (going as far as attacking the Horde during a world-ending invasion of the Legion)

This really needs to be restated over and over again.

Alliance have been making jabs all legion and some Alliance minded types have been doing so even longer. Right now there's a big issue where we have that force of alliance military that took it upon themselves to attack, with intent to destroy/capture, a horde fleet with very flimsy intel that wasn't fully explored until halfway through the zone. We see no actual impact of that event except for headcanon that it might make sense for the person who was the target of said operation to then maybe secure borders/interests. Genn loses a bunch of forces off teh coast of some islands and gets an attaboy from the new King?

On topic.

the revolving door leadership idea isn't inately bad until you sit there and it's a new leader every expansion because it seems the devs can't stick with a story and offs a character seemingly for the solely to open up a spot for a new character.

[Minikin]

This really needs to be restated over and over again.

Alliance have been making jabs all legion and some Alliance minded types have been doing so even longer. Right now there's a big issue where we have that force of alliance military that took it upon themselves to attack, with intent to destroy/capture, a horde fleet with very flimsy intel that wasn't fully explored until halfway through the zone. We see no actual impact of that event except for headcanon that it might make sense for the person who was the target of said operation to then maybe secure borders/interests. Genn loses a bunch of forces off teh coast of some islands and gets an attaboy from the new King?

On topic.

the revolving door leadership idea isn't inately bad until you sit there and it's a new leader every expansion because it seems the devs can't stick with a story and offs a character seemingly for the solely to open up a spot for a new character.

eh i see both factions been stupid at different times. at this point in time ive just come to see it as blizzard's way of balancing and keeping both factions at it while not letting one completely win over the other.

both are equally guilty

[Mehrunes]

I mean, you're not wrong. But if things are made apparent, Blizz at least does listen but doesn't often act upon it.

They never listen. EA listens to feedback more than Blizzard. Blizzard ignores feedback, then ignores the problems caused by them ignoring feedback for two years while pretending their design is pure divinity, then in the next expansion change the design because it was apparently not pure divinity and restart the process. And that's in regards to gameplay that they sort of care about. They don't give a single shit about the story.

Point being, it wouldn't be differentiation or change for the sake of it if it were handled better.

Which Blizzard is incapable of. Also, given how there's no real point to replacing a Warchief from the Horde's perspective, it'd be doing it just for the sake of it.

And Sylvanas smashed her skull open on a bed of Yogg's blood. The undead may have shown some resistance, but do you really think someone like Sylvanas wouldn't be a prime target for convincing whispers? People don't trust Sylvanas at the best of times, why would they trust her better when anyone could be a liability?

Because it was the only thing she could think of that'd actually kill her. There were ghouls implanted with Saronite running around in WotLK. They weren't chanting ywaq maq oou.

Warcrimes? That man wanted nothing to do with defending Garrosh but went through with it while pointing out flaws in reasoning other members of the Horde had without cowing to protect them or their feelings, that's more spine than most other characters have shown in years.

And in Tides of War in order to whitewash Alliance's hostile actions against his own people he crawled up Alliance's ass so fast and so deep Varian needed to undergo a surgery to have him removed. He's an Alliance sympathizing bootlicker with a penchant for small human boys. And suffering from delusions (accusing Garrosh of betraying his father when it's Cairne who challenged Garrosh and Magatha who poisoned the blade).

Maybe he's going senile? One too many hits in the head with blunt objects?

I think there's a lot of different ways the concept of honour can be written. There's the really obnoxious B-B-B-B-BUT HONOUR?!??! which is Saurfang thus far in BfA and then there's the more understandable "yeah we're just going to do things this way because it's cleaner and fairer to the people that will end up victims regardless".

Yeah, but since Saurfang is the former here, he's a terrible example.

I'm all for putting the Alliance down, always. I'm not so sure Saurfang is an Alliance sympathiser, more just a Sylvanas disliker but I guess we'll see and I don't particularly have high hopes for how that arc is going.

Disliking the Warchief and just bailing on the Horde are two different things. Vol'jin hated Garrosh, yet he didn't run to listen to one of Anduin's sermons.

[Nalorakk]

eh i see both factions been stupid at different times. at this point in time ive just come to see it as blizzard's way of balancing and keeping both factions at it while not letting one completely win over the other.

both are equally guilty

Have to also remember to try run it through the minds of characters in universe.

Sometimes there's stupid but understandable, e.g. Alliance trying to invade Mulgore during Cata. They were already in the Barrens when Deathwing broke the zone in half, but then Deathwing was gone from their view, so they kept on doing what they were sent to do.

In that scenario, why would they turn around and go home? Their target's likely just as rattled as they are.

But there's also plain stupid, e.g. Jaina shouting I'M NEUTRAL I'M NEUTRAL while the Alliance pumps troops through Theramore to invade Horde territory.

[------------------------]

after all, i ask myself: "why the fuck isn't Saurfang the Warchief yet?"

[mickybrighteyes]

after all, i ask myself: "why the fuck isn't Saurfang the Warchief yet?"

he turned it down before

[Nalorakk]

They never listen. EA listens to feedback more than Blizzard. Blizzard ignores feedback, then ignores the problems caused by them ignoring feedback for two years while pretending their design is pure divinity, then in the next expansion change the design because it was apparently not pure divinity and restart the process. And that's in regards to gameplay that they sort of care about. They don't give a single shit about the story.

Just the other day they increased the size of Zandalari like people made a fuss about. Saying they never listen is wrong, but it's understandable frustration after the years upon years of silence and inaction.

Which Blizzard is incapable of. Also, given how there's no real point to replacing a Warchief from the Horde's perspective, it'd be doing it just for the sake of it.

I wouldn't go as far as saying incapable, just hasn't done/unwilling to do.

Because it was the only thing she could think of that'd actually kill her. There were ghouls implanted with Saronite running around in WotLK. They weren't chanting ywaq maq oou.

Could be because they were under the Lich King's control instead of being free. Then again, if Blizzard flipped a coin and it landed "Sylvanas sprouting tentacles" side up, she'd sprout tentacles regardless.

And in Tides of War in order to whitewash Alliance's hostile actions against his own people he crawled up Alliance's ass so fast and so deep Varian needed to undergo a surgery to have him removed. He's an Alliance sympathizing bootlicker with a penchant for small human boys. And suffering from delusions (accusing Garrosh of betraying his father when it's Cairne who challenged Garrosh and Magatha who poisoned the blade).

Garrosh was scratching his head because he couldn't understand the difference between brown cows and black cows while Baine's seat of power was being mugged. At least he got a hammer out of it?
(Also that was The Shattering wasn't it? I can't really distinguish either :V)

Yeah, but since Saurfang is the former here, he's a terrible example.

Not always, just in BfA as I said.

Disliking the Warchief and just bailing on the Horde are two different things. Vol'jin hated Garrosh, yet he didn't run to listen to one of Anduin's sermons.

Again, maybe he is going senile? Do we know how old this man is??

[Kwento]

Why? Because there has been only one time in wow’s history when change of Warchief didn’t serve as a way to make Horde look evil and do some questionable shit. One time out of three. And Vol’jin didn’t even get to do anything because if Warchief isn’t an asshole then he’s apparently supposed to stay out of sight.

[ls-]

Warcrimes? That man wanted nothing to do with defending Garrosh but went through with it while pointing out flaws in reasoning other members of the Horde had without cowing to protect them or their feelings, that's more spine than most other characters have shown in years.

We're talking about Baine who also exiled his own people (I'm not talking about Magatha & Co.) for wanting to avenge Taurajo and kill all Allies. During Cata beta he's eager to kill every human who wanted to get into Mulgore and harm his precious cows, but then his dialogue was changed, he got neutered and became an Ally loving carebear who justified their attack by saying that they indeed were training warriors and hunters in the camp.

Do Hordies really want to have someone like that as their Warchief?

At this point I actually hope that Thrall will become the Warchief again. Sylvanas doesn't want to be the Warchief, but has to be one, Lor'themar cba, Saurfang is honourfang, Baine is a pussy, Gallywix will prob sell the Horde, and let's just forget about Firepaw.

[Deleted]

I feel like the Horde has lost its identity ever since we lost Thrall as Warchief. Garrosh quickly moved his focus to warfare and fighting the Alliance, I clearly remember his quote whenever I selected him:
"Live by THESE words, Lok'tar Ogar, Victory or Death!"

Then he turned traitor by trying to kill as many non-Orc Horde members as possibly, sending them on what was effectively suicide missions. Vol'jin takes over and talks about how the Horde is a big family, ok not sure what that's supposed to mean but sure... Then he doesn't do a damn thing other than dying. Then Sylvanas takes over, and it feels like the only focus now is to strengthen the Forsaken as well as her powers, not the Horde. Very similar to Garrosh in only looking out for her own "race".

At this point I'm conflicted, on the one hand I really want to replace Sylvanas with someone else, but on the other hand I really do not want that person to be replaced an expansion later. Personally I'd prefer Lady Liadrin or even Lor'themar as Warchief, both of them have proven themselves tactful, respectable leaders who will look out for the well being of others, including those who aren't Blood Elves. I also think Liadrin is a much better written character than Sylvanas and she doesn't receive nearly enough attention.