Alts BfA will be similar to Legion in terms of alt-friendliness.

[SirCowdog]

Alt friendly does NOT mean that you get to skip the leveling process. Alt-Friendly only means that once you hit that character to max-level, it can catch up to the point most other players are relatively quickly.

For instance, the current Unsullied sets are VERY alt friendly, as you can equip a character with a full set of 880s as soon as they hit 110. Argus is also very alt-friendly, since you can get a character up to 920 ilvl very quickly. Artifact Knowledge and Power is also alt-friendly, as you can do what used to take multiple months in a single daily. Furthermore, rather then WQs rewarding 805 item lvl for a fresh 110, like at the start of the expansion, they reward 840-850 ilvl, which quickly scales up to 880 ilvl.

On the other hand, Prestige is not alt-friendly - You have to play it the exact same amount as everyone else (Baring the various nerfs) in order to catch up to other players who have been playing longer. Legendaries also aren't quite alt friendly - You have to play a significant amount without the legendaries, thus gimping your preformance, in order to get your BiS legendaries.

Being Alt friendly, now, at the end of the expansion isn't quite the same as being alt friendly in a more general sense. During the entire first half of Legion the game was downright hostile to alts. And in a lot of ways it still is.

Legendaries are the biggest culprit, but things like the Order Hall missions, Crucible and Titanforging slot machine mechanics are contributors. And honestly, until the catchup mechanics like Artifact Research and Unsullied Gear become available and useful, alts are going to be a serious time investment to operate.

If BfA starts out anything like Legion, it won't even be worth considering an alt until 9-12 months in. That's not being alt-friendly at all.

[tyrlaan]

I'll do it for you:

Blizzard isn't interested in player agency. They want to control as many aspects of how we progress as possible, to better plan, predict, and control how long content will last. And by doing so predict, plan, and ultimately control how much subscription profit they get each month.

Think about it: How many times in WoD or Legion did you ever actually get to make any choices for your character? How much of it was just sitting on the rails and either grinding away at a progress bar or waiting for a timer to expire before being able to go on to the next bit?

I just don't see how BfA is going to be more alt friendly under the current design team and philosophy.

Well at least you know you're going full pessimist, though you may be going all the way to full conspiracy theorist.

You're unsubbed, right?

[durenas]

"Alts

BfA will be similar to Legion in terms of alt-friendliness.
If you are looking to get varied content from alts, the team has taken a number of steps to deliver that.
If you are looking for more alts to farm things, that is less of what the team is trying to prioritize.
There were issues with alts early in Legion, but things are closer to okay now.
The Heart of Azeroth catch up process for Azerite will work passively in the background, similar to Artifact Knowledge. "

So , ok i get it in a way, but ... all new allied races like upcoming zandalari , dark iron dwarf's and later on the ; Mag'har OrcsKul and Tiran Humans . Will be "alts". I know i get it they should not be lvl 110 at starting but, few monts into the expansion geting a new all-race and then lvling it from 20 or paying boost / race change is .. hmmm stupi? I mean ya it's new content , but it aint content like raid or new scenario. It liteler is a race that you dont need to play, but DH were a class that you "dont need to play", imamgion geting some Allied Class 20 weeks into the expansion something like dnk "battle mage" and then needing to do ll the content again jsut to have it.

The Mag orcs , Kult Humans etc, should not start at 20 ... at elast at 110 or somthing like that , or i dnk , just find it stupid in a way , its not a radi or somthing , this content should allready be t lunch in the game but , accasible after you finsinsh with one char the main story for zandalari and not ( i al least got that immpresion ) geting zandalari and darkiron in the first patch and then dnk in the second the orcs etc... middle of the expansion....

Good god, dude. At least spellcheck what you write first.. I mean, I'm not a huge grammar nazi, but I couldn't read this without bursting out laughing.

[SirCowdog]

Well at least you know you're going full pessimist, though you may be going all the way to full conspiracy theorist.

You're unsubbed, right?

There's nothing conspiracy-theory about it. I'm simply talking facts based on Blizzard's behavior since WoD. They switched from trying to make the best game they could, to trying to make the best money-making machine they could. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive, but you can really tell the soul has gone out of the game.

And yes, I'm currently unsubbed. I have ~48 hours left on the account to finish my current experiment for speed-leveling, but after that I'm probably done for at least the next 6 months. I've got Monster Hunter and Vermintide 2 to play, as well as finishing up the Bloodborne DLC. By then maybe Wolcen, Heart Forth Alecia, Darksiders 3, Eitr, Dark Souls 1 remastered, or any number of other games nearing completion will be done. And I haven't even touched Civ6 or Neir Automata yet.

Blizzard needs to step up their game, IMHO. Just relying on milking people too invested to quit isn't going to last much longer, given the quality of other games coming around the same time as BfA.

[Sorrior]

Well at least you know you're going full pessimist, though you may be going all the way to full conspiracy theorist.

You're unsubbed, right?

He isn't wrong though. I think it is activisions influence mixed with modern AAA game design philosophy more then blizzard though. Very few non indie/smaller studio games give you any actual agency as a player or encourage(or even permit) finding inventive ways to do stuffm if a crazy way to use game mechanics or do unintended styff is found most companies patch it out these days whiiich is kinda sad.

[Zaganite]

I hope this is true from the get go and they learned from Legion initially. I plan on have 2 mains really and Alliance and a Horde but if its going to be a struggle to maintain those two first then I'll have to drop my Horde DK.

Im not even pushed about the leveling side of it, its just the more gated stuff like Azerite, gear and professiona (although its changing from the awful Legion quests)

[Collected]

I feel for Blizzard because on the one hand they need to engineer the content in such a way that players feel they need to log on and remain subbed. So time based grinds. On the other hand they don't want to make that grind too easy because players will suddenly feel they've done everything there is to do and unsubscribe.

The trouble is every player is different. Some players can put in hours every day. Some players get a couple of hours a night if they're lucky. So to one player the grind might not be so bad. To another it might be so off putting they simply don't log in to their alts anymore.

Personally I think a balance between the two is required. Don't get rid of the grind. But introduce "catch up" mechanics a little earlier into the expansion for alts. So if you've just hit a milestone in the BFA grind on your main... give a 2x bonus to alts. Something like that. Just make it a bit easier for you to do the same process again on alts. I don't mean levelling.... but end game grinds. That's what puts me off the most from playing alts.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

When I hear alt friendliness I think of balancing multiple CAPPED alts, not leveling. And Legion was... okay for capped alts. Especially once Argus was out. Leveling allied races is a mess, but it's a seperate issue, and one Blizz hasn't addressed.

[Marrilaife]

And Legion was... okay for capped alts. Especially once Argus was out.

Yeah, "especially" after 1 year of Legion. The first year was atrocious. Levelling an alt only to be forever behind on artifact knowledge which meant of course behind on artifact power / traits despite grinding them (and grinding order resources for the AK research tomes), I hope those times never return. I can't describe the absolute retardness of an idea you're gonna be weeks if not months behind not only on grind but on effectiveness of that grind, so you will progress SLOWER with the same effort that mains are putting while also being behind on traits in comparison to these mains. "Oh yeah your research will only take 3 days instead of 5" was completely useless, you had weeks of catching up to the research level everyone else had and during that time all your AP farm was drastically reduced in outcome.

Blizzard had also this amazing idea to heavy-handedly nerf the leading specs like prot warrior, fire mage, s2m priest and so forth, leaving many people with rug pulled from under their feet and no good perspective to reroll (due to AK delay retardness) or respec (due to legendary softcap).

So I really hope they mean Legion in a way "we've learned our lessons" instead of "yeah the system was perfect, you can suffer for 1 year and then maybe have fun for the second year of expac".

[Aliven]

The main thing that concerns me about alts is going to be the Azerite grind. Late in the expansion I'm sure there's going to be a catchup mechanic, but earlier on alts will be painful, just like they were in Legion.

I really wonder how they're going to address this, because being alt-friendly doesn't really fit into the business model of stretching content with lots of RNG.

Yep. Thats why im thinking about skipping expansion. Blizz showed they are mostly interested with stretching content thin and heavy, heavy time gating it.

[tyrlaan]

There's nothing conspiracy-theory about it. I'm simply talking facts based on Blizzard's behavior since WoD. They switched from trying to make the best game they could, to trying to make the best money-making machine they could. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive, but you can really tell the soul has gone out of the game.

You may feel this is the case, but short of a statement from Blizzard, this not fact-based at all. Your inferring based on your personal likes/dislikes in the game. I would imagine there are plenty of people that disagree that the "soul of the game" is gone, many of which don't bother to post here because they're off enjoying the game.

[Aliven]

You may feel this is the case, but short of a statement from Blizzard, this not fact-based at all. Your inferring based on your personal likes/dislikes in the game. I would imagine there are plenty of people that disagree that the "soul of the game" is gone, many of which don't bother to post here because they're off enjoying the game.

So having wait week for "kill 10 demons" quest is not being time gated for sake of being time gated? Ofc this is sub base game so instead of giving players all content up front we can stretch it across 2 months and get extra bucks.

[tyrlaan]

So having wait week for "kill 10 demons" quest is not being time gated for sake of being time gated? Ofc this is sub base game so instead of giving players all content up front we can stretch it across 2 months and get extra bucks.

I didn't defend time gating with lame quests. I merely argued that you can't state that such a play is factual evidence that the "soul of the game" is gone.

On the flip side, anyone who assumes that WoW only existed to make money within the last expansion (or 2 or 3 or whenever you decided to hate the game and continue posting on forums about it), is deluding themselves.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Yeah, "especially" after 1 year of Legion. The first year was atrocious. Levelling an alt only to be forever behind on artifact knowledge which meant of course behind on artifact power / traits despite grinding them (and grinding order resources for the AK research tomes), I hope those times never return. I can't describe the absolute retardness of an idea you're gonna be weeks if not months behind not only on grind but on effectiveness of that grind, so you will progress SLOWER with the same effort that mains are putting while also being behind on traits in comparison to these mains. "Oh yeah your research will only take 3 days instead of 5" was completely useless, you had weeks of catching up to the research level everyone else had and during that time all your AP farm was drastically reduced in outcome.

Blizzard had also this amazing idea to heavy-handedly nerf the leading specs like prot warrior, fire mage, s2m priest and so forth, leaving many people with rug pulled from under their feet and no good perspective to reroll (due to AK delay retardness) or respec (due to legendary softcap).

So I really hope they mean Legion in a way "we've learned our lessons" instead of "yeah the system was perfect, you can suffer for 1 year and then maybe have fun for the second year of expac".

Yeah the AK thing was absolute horsecrap and I'm glad Blizz has already confirmed that future catchup mechanics will work like AK does now. Where it's the same across the board for everyone.

Also glad it sounds like dungeons will unlock account-wide still, as that was also garbage. Having to redo the Nightfallen storyline on every character to get the two dungeons unlocked.

[SirCowdog]

You may feel this is the case, but short of a statement from Blizzard, this not fact-based at all. Your inferring based on your personal likes/dislikes in the game. I would imagine there are plenty of people that disagree that the "soul of the game" is gone, many of which don't bother to post here because they're off enjoying the game.

I don't buy the "Silent Majority" argument at all. I'll stick to basing my views off what Iactually see Blizzard doing instead of worrying about people who may or may not have an opinion(which they don't post). And what I see Blizzard doing is moving further and further away from player agency, while implementing more and more mechanics like layered RNG and hard time-gates that prevent progress.



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On the flip side, anyone who assumes that WoW only existed to make money within the last expansion (or 2 or 3 or whenever you decided to hate the game and continue posting on forums about it), is deluding themselves.

I didn't say the game was ONLY about making money. In fact I was pretty clear that making money and making a good game weren't mutually exclusive. The point I was trying to get across was that making money is clearly the primary goal now. It's bending and influencing every aspect of the game, and not always to the betterment of it.

This is what I meant when I said the soul of the game was gone. They stopped trying to be the best game they could be, and have switched to being the best business. It dictates every decision they make for the game and you can REALLY see it if you take the time to look.

Or you can ignore everything and just keep plugging away at the game. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. :/

[Paulosio]

Sounds good to me, Alts are easy as fuck in Legion. Easiest expansion to gear in ever.

Depends if we are talking current Legion or Legion at launch. It's alt friendly now but it wasn't at the beginning.

[Aliven]

Depends if we are talking current Legion or Legion at launch. It's alt friendly now but it wasn't at the beginning.

BfA will be the same. They already said that azerite necklace is basically artifact weapon in terms of pumping azerite there.

My though about wow since Legos is "How you can create something which is so good and polished and at the same time fuck it like it is no tomorrow"...
WoW heroically struggle and try to overcome issues other mmos never, ever heard off.

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I didn't defend time gating with lame quests. I merely argued that you can't state that such a play is factual evidence that the "soul of the game" is gone.

On the flip side, anyone who assumes that WoW only existed to make money within the last expansion (or 2 or 3 or whenever you decided to hate the game and continue posting on forums about it), is deluding themselves.

But that time gating shows shift in philosophy.

[tyrlaan]

I don't buy the "Silent Majority" argument at all. I'll stick to basing my views off what Iactually see Blizzard doing instead of worrying about people who may or may not have an opinion(which they don't post). And what I see Blizzard doing is moving further and further away from player agency, while implementing more and more mechanics like layered RNG and hard time-gates that prevent progress.

Confirmation bias is a thing.

I mean, feel free to dislike the game and all - obviously. Just don't try to pass your opinions off as fact.

But that time gating shows shift in philosophy.

I don't disagree with that statement. I disagree with the conclusion of what that philosophy is.

[SirCowdog]

Confirmation bias is a thing.

I mean, feel free to dislike the game and all - obviously. Just don't try to pass your opinions off as fact.

And don't ignore facts because it doesn't agree with your POV.

FACT: Legion uses more layered RNG than ever before.
FACT: Legion uses more hard timegates to limit progress than ever before.
FACT: Legion limits player agency more with things like restricting flight.

Sorry if you don't like what I'm saying, but I'm not telling you that you can't still enjoy Legion. But the simple truth is that the game is being designed more and more to milk players for extra monthly subs than it ever has. Keep pulling the lever on that slot machine if that's what you like. But don't lie to yourself about what it is.

[Sylvaeres]

ok so alts are as dead in BfA as they were in Legion .

good to know to not waste time on shit expansion .

Lmao jesus, try some cranberry juice for that problem of yours