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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Not a ranged attack, that's a gap closer.

    Their ranged attack is heroic throw, it has a 6s cooldown and does less damage than Enhancement's Lightning Bolt.
    Are you not smart enough to follow the logic here or something? Warriors don't need ranged attacks. They can get into melee again very easily. This is why mobility is comparable to ranged attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Enhancement Shaman?

    Let's see... They have... Lightning bolt, which does pathetic damage, takes 5 casts to do the same damage Judgment does in 1 hit.... And that's it. Unless we're counting abilities with a 10y range, which is a hair outside of melee... I don't think any shaman would really call those "ranged attacks"...

    The only other thing they have is a 3 min CD (talent) that makes Stormstrike and auto attacks have a 30y range for 15 seconds.
    Okay, but they also have Ghost Wolf all the time, which ties into getting back into melee range, not to mention they just do more damage than ret in every situation.. but ignore these "irrelevant" facts, please. We're not talking about how practical it is for any spec to do damage or anything [MEGASARCASM]


    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Their DoTs do tiny damage, especially for Frost, Howling Blast does tiny damage except in AoE.

    Death Coil hits decently but they have no way to generate RP outside of melee range, so they can only cast it twice before they need to be in melee range to do literally anything again, assuming they had enough RP to cast it at all before they got out of melee range in the first place.
    They can bank their RP for that situation, prioritizing other abilities before moving out of range. Can ret do anything like that?... kind-of. spending on a TV and using crusader strike, maybe using Blade of Justice when you're 12 yards away, and then Judgment when you're running back in. Frost DKs are the most comparable, but then, YOU CAN SWITCH SPEC TO UNHOLY EASILY LOL Frost doesn't count sorry. I'll keep saying this until everyone that doesn't get this, gets it. The sky is blue, the earth is an oblate spheroid, Frost is a DPS loss you choose when Unholy is just better and easily accessible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Yes, our mobility is awful, we do not have the tools we need to be an effective melee, so our mobility needs to be improved, we don't need to become a ranged hybrid.
    We had both before, and right now we have none. I never said ranged abilities should be the ultimate solution, but something has to be done one way or another.

  2. #162
    Frost is a dps loss? What?
    You can't count Coils as ranged potential, btw.
    You could count the Clawing shadows Talent, though, unless you're willing to ignore the fact that you Have to get into melee to pop wounds and gain RP.

  3. #163
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Are you not smart enough to follow the logic here or something? Warriors don't need ranged attacks. They can get into melee again very easily. This is why mobility is comparable to ranged attacks.
    Are you not smart enough to read an entire post before responding? Because I covered this at the bottom.

    Okay, but they also have Ghost Wolf all the time, which ties into getting back into melee range
    See above.

    not to mention they just do more damage than ret in every situation.
    Citation needed.


    They can bank their RP for that situation, prioritizing other abilities before moving out of range
    Like I said, they can only do it a couple times before they are out... And then they have nothing without going back in. We don't need to go back in to be able to Judge again, we just need time.
    Frost doesn't count sorry.
    You said DK, you didn't specify Unholy, if you didn't want me to bring them up, you should have been specific. That's on you.



    I never said ranged abilities should be the ultimate solution
    You sure seem to act like it.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  4. #164
    "Citation needed" Warcraftlogs is not hard to use. I don't "act" like anything. Ret just played better before Legion. We had gameplay choices. I'm sure many other specs did as well, especially with glyphs. They really went too far with pruning (with some more than others). Seems to me like they overdid it because WoD did poorly, but they still had interesting class gameplay in WoD, it was just the content that was lacking.

    EDIT: Okay Enhance isn't great on Portal Keeper mythic, but that is definitely an outlier, not as much of an outlier as Kin'garoth heroic max percentile though.
    Last edited by Reith; 2018-03-16 at 07:56 AM.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    We're a melee class. No.
    how so spot a noobie who never played ret range builds, we're not a melee class, sry, we are semi-ranged and been like that before legion-wod degeneracy

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Yes, and they only have 1 ability they use in their standard rotation that is ranged (Death Coil), just like we only have 1 ranged ability in our standard rotation (Judgment). You are suggesting we make Ret almost entirely ranged, if not entirely... Most people who are playing Ret are playing Ret because it's a melee class... You don't turn Ret into a ranged spec after 13 years of it being melee unless your intent is to piss off a large majority of the Ret playerbase... We don't play Ret to be shockadins, we play Ret to be melee crusaders.
    Actually, I have always envisioned Ret as the melee that has the most ranged attacks and that being one of its strengths. That's the nature of using holy magic to gain damage that mitigates armor and has range at the cost of less mobility than other melee DPS who have more gap closers, etc. I would fully support more ranged in the kit, and frequently advocate for old Final Verdict talent back, as well as HoW/Exo. Now understand I don't think Ret needs an entire toolkit of 30yd range. I just think a HYBRIDization of melee and caster could work. One where a plethora of buttons are in the 15yd-20yd range.

    That said, where did you get 13 years of being melee? I very distinctly remember Vanilla Ret having more ranged ability presses than melee ones. HoW, Exo, HW, etc. How many melee ones did we have then? Consecration, hardly? Surely you don't count seals or auto attacks.

    How about BC? They added 1. CS so still favoring ranged.

    WotLK? DS was added as a melee attack. Almost even here.

    Cata? TV added. Evenish depending on what range you define as melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Given the number of people who complained all through MoP and WoD that we didn't feel like a melee class anymore, when we had less range than what you are suggesting, I'm gonna say you're wrong there. We were changed back to almost exclusively melee abilities for a reason.
    Ret's always been fairly ranged as part of its kit, so not sure how you can even make that statement that it hasn't been. It may not have been as much LATELY, but they also thought they could balance Crusade. They also thought Equality was a good and worthwhile pick and that one charge of Divine Steed was sufficient. Sometimes they get it wrong, maybe shifting Ret to being more like a Warrior and hamstrung to melee range wasn't a good idea. I won't speak for the entire community, but I'm fairly sure there are others who feel this way. It's fine if you feel different but instead of speaking on behalf of the entire community why not ground your discussions more personally and try and identify why you believe your ideas to be better. Back it up with examples and insight. How would a very strict melee iteration play? What would make YOU happy? If you did before and I missed it, link me and I'll read it objectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Ok, Warcraft isn't other IPs.
    Don't be so close-minded. There are plenty of other IPs for Blizz to draw inspiration from on Paladins. They've done it in the past, and they'll keep doing it. Relegating design to strictly old Warcraft Paladin inspiration might dry the well up and create a really stagnant spec.

  7. #167
    Wod ret was fine in almost all aspects, be it damage, utility, healing and offhealing along with defenses and mobility.
    You should ask why and how could they remove and defile and twist and break literally, yeah, literally everything when it worked so fine.

  8. #168
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Talvindius View Post
    @OP it's still in alpha, you need to wait another like 4 or 5 months for mid to late beta before you can accurately determine whether or not youre satisfied with BFA Ret.
    People still use 'it's only alpha' ? I mean every xpac people say that and the same stupid ideas from alpha make it live and end up as dead talents and such for entire expansions.

    Bad ideas, and more importantly lack of improvements are still bad ideas even if they have time to be fixed.

  9. #169
    Ret is basically a 4th warrior spec that trades most of its mobility for increased utility. Utility that is far better in the Holy Paladin spec Retribution is a damage spec that has a more difficult time doing its primary function in any environment that involves any type of movement/displacement. I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that "they would like to bring a Ret for utility."

    This is the main reason that my Paladin sits on the shelf. I just don't like the way the class plays mechanically. Throwing larger damage numbers does nothing for me personally. If they keep the mobility low (or even lower.) I think having more mid-range damage options would help, mechanically.

    Templar's Verdict (+30 yards)
    Blade of Justice (+18 yards)
    Execution Sentence (+10 yards)
    Last edited by Ramiell; 2018-03-16 at 04:34 PM.

  10. #170
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitro View Post
    how so spot a noobie who never played ret range builds, we're not a melee class, sry, we are semi-ranged and been like that before legion-wod degeneracy
    How to spot someone who doesn't read the forums. The reason given by Blizzard for taking away our ranged capability was exactly what I said, we are supposed to be melee.

    I've been playing Ret since Vanilla... What range did we have back then? Hammer of Wrath, and Exo, which only worked against demons and undead. That's it. Not exactly "semi ranged".


    TBC - Same as above...

    Wrath - HoW, and Exo can now be used against all targets, but, has a cast time and an insane mana cost unless used with an Art of War proc, which requires you to be in melee. Still not really "semi ranged".

    Cataclysm - Judgment range increased to 30y, Exorcism damage drastically nerfed (half damage) when used without AoW procs, otherwise same as above.

    MoP - Same as above, except Exo now no longer has a cast time - now has a cooldown which is reset by AoW procs. With that and Execution Sentence/Holy Prism having 40y range, now we're "semi ranged", 8 years after launch. This continues into WoD and then is turned around in Legion.

    So, we were "semi ranged" for a grand total of 4 years out of the game's 12 years.

    Now shove off, "noobie".
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2018-03-16 at 05:57 PM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  11. #171
    Watched FinalbossTV Ret stream.
    So good so far:
    HoF is 45 sec cd
    Steed is 1 min cd
    (not) Greater Blessings are still present
    Retardation Passive is still there
    3 RNG talents on different tiers for wonderful gameplay!
    Concecration cd is retarded and it doesnt follow the character
    3 ways to directly increase your overall damage through talents at the same time and stack them inspires hope for a finely tuned balance
    WoG still exists for some reasonably reasonable reason
    SH requires tuning, badly
    Obviously FoJ required and received a nerf
    E4E being physical damage reduction only is a, to put it lightly, questionable talent due to almost no physical damage in game barring Warriors
    JV still doesn't heal if damage is absorbed



    My nipples explode with delight.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Against Many View Post
    Watched FinalbossTV Ret stream.
    So good so far:
    HoF is 45 sec cd
    Steed is 1 min cd
    (not) Greater Blessings are still present
    Retardation Passive is still there
    3 RNG talents on different tiers for wonderful gameplay!
    Concecration cd is retarded and it doesnt follow the character
    3 ways to directly increase your overall damage through talents at the same time and stack them inspires hope for a finely tuned balance
    WoG still exists for some reasonably reasonable reason
    SH requires tuning, badly
    Obviously FoJ required and received a nerf
    E4E being physical damage reduction only is a, to put it lightly, questionable talent due to almost no physical damage in game barring Warriors
    JV still doesn't heal if damage is absorbed



    My nipples explode with delight.
    Yeah, I'm in Alpha right now and it's... difficult to decide when it gets to the talents. I tried to look at a few different choices on what to pick and I couldn't find anything that felt good. ;_: Righteous Verdict sounds like something that'd be the right choice but then I feel completely useless in AoE as I can't use TV enough. If anything I prefer Zeal since I can get Blade of Wrath to proc more (since HoW is bugged, I think, with it's low damage).

    And the Greater Blessings are just pointless now when we don't even get a strength buff from having both up.

    And I would LOVE to use Consecration if they just made it so it followed you around, like the old Protection Paladin glyph for it. ;_:

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigxy the Lemming View Post
    Yeah, I'm in Alpha right now and it's... difficult to decide when it gets to the talents. I tried to look at a few different choices on what to pick and I couldn't find anything that felt good. ;_: Righteous Verdict sounds like something that'd be the right choice but then I feel completely useless in AoE as I can't use TV enough. If anything I prefer Zeal since I can get Blade of Wrath to proc more (since HoW is bugged, I think, with it's low damage).

    And the Greater Blessings are just pointless now when we don't even get a strength buff from having both up.

    And I would LOVE to use Consecration if they just made it so it followed you around, like the old Protection Paladin glyph for it. ;_:
    Zeal does nothing for BoW as it is RPPM. Only haste will affect RPPM not attack speed.

  14. #174
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Holysack View Post
    Zeal does nothing for BoW as it is RPPM. Only haste will affect RPPM not attack speed.
    Wonder if someone could qualify RPPM and PPM for me since they seem to be used interchangeably and I know that when used correctly one of them means that the amount of proccs you get in a given time frame is increased by haste and the other one means it isn't.

  15. #175
    Watched some alpha videos, ret seems cool. Wish divine purpose was baseline. And they need to do something ret mobility, I hate divine steed.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by maaghen View Post
    Wonder if someone could qualify RPPM and PPM for me since they seem to be used interchangeably and I know that when used correctly one of them means that the amount of proccs you get in a given time frame is increased by haste and the other one means it isn't.
    Now a days PPM and RPPM are interchangeable. RPPM was introduced in MoP. Basically the longer you go without a proc the higher chance of getting a proc you have with this system. Using Blade of Wrath as an example it has a RPPM value of 4. RPPM procs are affected by haste the assuming someone has 20% haste the actual chance would be 4(Haste) or 4(1.2) which is actually 4.8 RPPN.

  17. #177
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Against Many View Post
    Wod ret was fine in almost all aspects, be it damage, utility, healing and offhealing along with defenses and mobility.
    You should ask why and how could they remove and defile and twist and break literally, yeah, literally everything when it worked so fine.
    sarcasm, hm? i certainly could agree on utility, mobility, 30-50% HP Selfless Healer (auto-crit) and defs, but:
    WoD ret was not viable in PvP, fe. Vanguard rerolled cuz of 0 PvP viabilty. rets utility, mobility and defs were useless in RPvP, cuz tunnel ret, gg:
    the sustained damage issue, rets focus on burst escaleted, meaning burst phase in CC, forced to bubble, gg, cuz no relevant damage outside burst. y do u think we got this superbe T18 set bonus (3 charges AW)? cuz ret had the same sustained damage issue for PvE, the absolute reliance on burst was its major weakness, that compromised its strengths.
    Legion fixed that with replacing Exo by BoJ, also J, ret was overall viable (esp. PvP).

    my initial reaction on current alpha build was the urge for a new Spa (meaning game), cuz after maining every class they all r no realistic alternative to me (reasons were splits, PvP and PvE knowledge and gold missions).

  18. #178
    Deleted
    I am in Alpha and it's just to early to make any conclusions right now, teh testing is more about missing graphic and stairs and floating buildings
    and seeing if the quests work.

  19. #179
    It's too early, he says.
    Not to worry guys, it's too early.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaron View Post
    Not sure if the topic was brought up already, but...
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20761998259

    Have "fun" reading.
    If anyone has any further questions I was the one who made this topic.

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