Thread: Master Looter

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  1. #141
    How do split runs work?

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Good way to get kicked from the guild, simply because vigilant officer team will spot this bullshit fast, as it is a known behavior.

    Wonder if a random piece of gear or two will be worth it.
    But i don't see why you would be kicked out of a guild for that behaviour if PL really is mandatory in the future. Except the RL, GL, Officer or whatever really is a dickbag who want's to control the loot as he pleases.

    Ok i guess if you really do it with bad intentions in mind like preventing others to get loot you might not need anyway ok. But i highly doubt someone like that raids organized in the first place. Or at least not mythic i guess. I would have yet to find someone investing time for mythic raiding who does not want the Group to benefit instead of the individual.

    I see the problem with Master Loot being removed. Good gear might go to waste just because it's only a small ilvl upgrade for me but a big upgrade for someone else.

    But i highly doubt this will have such a major impact on the progression for the regular Mythic guild. In the end bosses will still die. For most of them it's still Mechanics > DPS. Yes the real gear check bosses might over all take a bit longer to kill.

    But it's not the end of the World IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reape View Post
    That sounds like a juvenille response from a raiding member who doesnt understand what it means to be an officer/raid leader/GM of a mythic raiding guild.

    You have no clue the amount of extra work that goes into keeping a raiding guild running beyond just turning up and doing some DPS.

    I am a raid leader in a mythic guild. (We started mythic in week 2 of mythic content if that counts) We use master looter but we dont do split runs. I do not prioritize loot to officers over members. We have no core raider/raider rank. Everyone is entitled to loot. We use EPGP so there is no loot council, I trust my raiders to tell me if the item is a big upgrade for them.

    Master looter leads to less wasted gear, a 985 ring drops for someone on personal but its terrible stats, they cant trade it, therefore its a wasted item as they will never use it. That item is likely best in slot for someone else in the raid.

    I may revise my opinion going into BfA with the loss of tier tokens and hopefully them balancing secondary stats a bit better so that 1 stat doesnt go off stupidly far ahead of others for certain classes.
    I know this is a longshot but in the same Q&A it was mentioned that they are reworking loot in terms of statweight etc. The key message being "Ilvl > Stats" if i remember correctly (like you said). I know there is no guarantee it's gonna be like that. But if it holds true scenarios like the ones you describe would be rather rare.

    So at least in that regard i think and hope we will see some improvement.
    Last edited by Allenschezar; 2018-03-19 at 12:30 PM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipsissimus View Post
    Why do you need Blizzard to take away my guild's ability to Master Loot for you to do that?
    Do you really have that little agency over your gaming experience?
    Because if the option is in, all GMs / RLs are turning it on, because they want to guarantee "fair control" which mostly means perks for themselves.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Because if the option is in, all GMs / RLs are turning it on, because they want to guarantee "fair control" which mostly means perks for themselves.
    Start your own guild, be a fair GM. So weird how I've had quite a few of those.

  5. #145
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Bennett View Post
    that's weird because method didn't have the best gear of all the guilds competing in all of it's WF in Legion I'm pretty sure
    That's because Method are actual elite. Without massive gear funneling, we'll see who's actually got "big dick DPS" and who was just carried by gear.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipsissimus View Post
    Start your own guild, be a fair GM. So weird how I've had quite a few of those.
    There is little incentive to do this. I am mostly into PVP, but when I did lead raids (to get PVE abuse which you were trash without), I was using master loot as well and reserving items. Because what? Right, because the option is there.

    It's just a bad option to have.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    There is little incentive to do this. I am mostly into PVP, but when I did lead raids (to get PVE abuse which you were trash without), I was using master loot as well and reserving items. Because what? Right, because the option is there.

    It's just a bad option to have.
    Do elaborate on the "get PVE abuse which you were trash without" part, I'm not quite sure what you mean.

    So in essence what you're saying is that you yourself have a selfish and leeching mindset when it comes to raiding therefore cannot envision others behaving themselves a tad more respectfully when it comes to the loot they earn as a group?

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipsissimus View Post
    Do elaborate on the "get PVE abuse which you were trash without" part, I'm not quite sure what you mean.

    So in essence what you're saying is that you yourself have a selfish and leeching mindset when it comes to raiding therefore cannot envision others behaving themselves a tad more respectfully when it comes to the loot they earn as a group?
    In WotLK and Cata you had to PVE if you wanted to PVP other than casually because there were PVE items that were unparalleled in PVP (you have to PVE in order to PVP in Legion too, but for a different reason). Some of my characters had specs that were unlucky enough to have such PVE items overpowering all PVP items in the relevant slots. So I wanted to get these PVE items and I was forming raids to get them. I was using master loot and was reserving items in advance.

    What I am saying is that when there are big incentives to act selfishly, people will do so. Some won't, but the vast majority will. And that's not because the vast majority is somehow bad, it's because the incentives are bad. You make it profitable to shit on streets, you will get shit on streets. That's what this option is.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by zaino View Post
    The guy who posted this on the official wow forums had grey parses lol
    This. Lowest performance guy wants gear. thats all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And all those voting for removing ML are mostly greay/green parsed. I can imagine there are some people with orange logs who are agreed to remove ML but its very small% of other good playing players.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Bennett View Post
    yeah, it's alpha
    ^ The mantra of the ignorant fool.

    We have numerous expansions and major patches to prove that things that "make it to alpha" usually stay to live, no matter how many people complain about it. It's only the fun shit (Titan Paths, Dance Studio, etc.) that usually gets cut out from alpha or pre-alpha.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Dydric View Post
    You guild elitists! abused it and now you're losing it!

    I'll be honest with you, I can't be happier that this is going away. Guilds can no longer hold players in servitude while they gear the GMs and Officers. You can pretend that trial abuse wasn't happening left and right this whole expansion, but you and the players who were abused with it know the truth. Every single guild that was pushing relevant content used some form of ML / Loot Council / EPGP / DKP. And every one of them almost without exception was abusing it.

    1. Split runs, to gain unfair advantages over players who didn't have 18 hours a day 7 days a week to level 12 alts and funnel gear to their mains in Mythic Raiding guilds. Making end content much harder for the normal (majority) players earlier on than Blizzard intended it.

    2. Ninja looting, which as you notice only disappeared with the advent of Forced Personal Looting in PUGs.

    3. Trial Abuse, forcing players to do your bidding for weeks on end while you and your friends all got geared up.

    Go ahead, stop raiding like you're all threatening when this goes away - the raiding community will be a healthier place for it.

    If you're someone who got abused by guilds running trials post your story.

    - I've had upgrades that no one wanted in the raid disenchanted right in front of my eyes just because I was a trial and wasn't allowed to have loot.
    - Random PUGs would join the same group and be allowed to roll for gear; whereas, I was not allowed just because I was a trial.
    - We had a group of friends in one guild Loot Council themselves full of gear and then split off to make their own raid - while ours crumbled.
    - I've watched piles of Warforged and Titanforged items be passed to officers and GMs / their friends in a guild even when my EPGP score was higher.

    You abused it and now you're losing it!
    Here we can see a grey ranked DPS with his normal behaviour, blaming everyone but himself.

  12. #152
    Bloodsail Admiral Allenseiei's Avatar
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    This change isn't really going to solve anything. We are already ready to implement new rules for split raids for the personal loot system. We also heard guilds like Limit with their own process after this change is a applied. We can easily guess that method and other guilds will also have this.
    This might have some effects on the first raid, but none of the next raids.

    What is mind bogling about this change is how people want blizzard to babysit them. Master Loot in legion was already limited only to guilds, and people are free to leave guilds who do not offer what they want.
    This will create new social problems inside guilds. Pressure to trade items you can trade will arise, sour taste to the guy who has to trade even if he does so or not. Worst players of the guild getting rewarded by RNG (similar to the legendary system in legion) will always create drama. So personal loot solves nothing really, it just creates new problems.

    People who are fond of this change inside guilds are usualy those who perform really bad and dont want to see others recieve loot before they do. It's sad really.

    I am strongly against on removing the choice and letting the players choose what they believe is best for their organization. I think its a mistake and hope they go back from this decision.
    Last edited by Allenseiei; 2018-03-19 at 12:43 PM.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipsissimus View Post
    Do elaborate on the "get PVE abuse which you were trash without" part, I'm not quite sure what you mean.

    So in essence what you're saying is that you yourself have a selfish and leeching mindset when it comes to raiding therefore cannot envision others behaving themselves a tad more respectfully when it comes to the loot they earn as a group?
    If i may be so bold to butt in this conversation.

    For me it's less the question if the persons handling loot can be trusted to handle it fairly. But i highly doubt there are many who have a broad knowledge of every class and spec.

    So the question imo really comes down to "can you trust your raid members?" rather then the people being ML. Because the ML heavily relies on the information he or she is given. So to an extend in the end it might look like the ML in a Raid handles loot unfairly but only because of missleading or false information from his or her raidmembers.

    With PL this of course seems less of a problem. There is no scapegoat to blame. But the problem would still persist. Someone who is out for his or her personal advantage just doesn't need to make excuses anymore.
    Last edited by Allenschezar; 2018-03-19 at 12:49 PM.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    In WotLK and Cata you had to PVE if you wanted to PVP other than casually because there were PVE items that were unparalleled in PVP (you have to PVE in order to PVP in Legion too, but for a different reason). Some of my characters had specs that were unlucky enough to have such PVE items overpowering all PVP items in the relevant slots. So I wanted to get these PVE items and I was forming raids to get them. I was using master loot and reserving items in advance.

    What I am saying is that when there are big incentives to act selfishly, people will do so. Some won't, but the vast majority will. And that's not because the vast majority is somehow bad, it's because the incentives are bad. You make it profitable to shit on streets, you will get shit on streets. That's what this option is.
    Thank you for clarifying what you meant.

    I do remember what PvPing was like in WotLK and Cataclysm. I had offers to have my Mage (DFO, all the right socketed jewelry, etc.) piloted just so random-RMP-from-my-realm-X could try and secure rank 1 in WotLK. I abused Orange Stick to re-secure Gladiator in S10 after foolishly transferring off of my original battlegroup following the MMR reset, rather than camping snugly in my RMP which achieved a safe "top 10" on the battlegroup with full PvP gear early in the season.

    I got my PvE-for-PvP gear by consistently showing up for raids in my Heroic guild, and for some of the items I had to wait for quite a while since we gave them first to people they were BiS for in PvE over "Ipsi feels like trying PvP out and he'll probably do alright, let's give him shit 'cause his sarcasm is entertaining". Valanar's Other Signet Ring comes to mind as one that really did forever to obtain, simply because IIRC it was BiS for elemental and a few other specs or some such. I was fine with this, so were my guild mates with me getting it when I eventually did before this or that off-spec that wasn't really played. That's how playing as a team works.

    Similarly, various M+ trinkets that drop in Antorus are handed out based on who would indeed benefit from them in M+. I only clear high enough to get my maximum weekly chest ilevel, so when Terminus Signaling Beacon dropped this week it went to our Warrior after some initial mix-up over the highest roll et cetera.

    I don't care what the majority does. They can do pet battles, LFR, spam M+, ERP in Goldshire, shit on the streets of Stormwind. There's zero justification for Blizzard to take away a loot system that's already limited to guilds only. You can't reserve or ninja items anymore. What my guild does in its raids has zero effect on the rest of the population playing the game. Minus those who obsesses over their e-peen on wowprogress/wcl/raider.io/what-have-you, and surely it's not those "toxic" individuals the game should be catering to...

    Best yet, said supposed 'street shitters' QQ has absolutely nothing to do with why Blizzard is taking away ML. So you guys are really just trying to 'retroactively' justify an asinine decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenschezar View Post
    If i may be so bold to butt in this conversation.

    For me it's less the question if the persons handling loot can be trusted to handle it fairly. But i highly doubt there are many who have a broad knowledge of every class and spec.

    So the question imo really comes down to "can you trust your raid members?" rather then the people being ML. Because the ML heavily relies on the information he or she is given. So to an extend in the end it might look like the ML in a Raid handles loot unfairly but only because of missleading or false information from his or her raidmembers.

    With PL this of course seems less of a problem. There is no scapegoat to blame. But the problem would still persist. Someone who is out for his or her personal advantage just doesn't need to make excuses anymore.
    There are indeed a lot of ignorant folks playing the game, as there are distrustful ones. Most Mythic guilds do not have a single person but rather a loot council, with access to their alts, weighted values from the various class theorycrafters and direct information of the attendance, performance and whatever else factor your guild's leadership deems relevant for the distribution of loot. Mistakes still happen, people quit or move guilds. But you still have far greater control over the affairs than "oh look, Ipsi inbredforged his way into multiple max ilevel items, but he's hella busy IRL so he's standing in even more Fire than usual, woe is us".

    If a guild's leadership doesn't trust their raiders they should get new ones.
    If a player doesn't trust their guild's leadership they should join another one or start their own.
    It's nobody's business how we handle this internally.
    Last edited by Ipsissimus; 2018-03-19 at 12:56 PM.

  15. #155
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Here we can see a grey ranked DPS with his normal behaviour, blaming everyone but himself.
    Aside from OP's personal skill, which is not what the thread is about, it's quite easy to have orange/purple parses when the guild is funneling gear to you like there's no tomorrow. If you also happened to get your BiS leggo (especially in early Legion) of course you were going to blow everyone's DPS out of the water.

    TLDR ML may have its uses, but it also is very prone to abuse. And abused it has been, even if you aren't personally affected.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Aside from OP's personal skill, which is not what the thread is about, it's quite easy to have orange/purple parses when the guild is funneling gear to you like there's no tomorrow. If you also happened to get your BiS leggo (especially in early Legion) of course you were going to blow everyone's DPS out of the water.

    TLDR ML may have its uses, but it also is very prone to abuse. And abused it has been, even if you aren't personally affected.
    I still prefer it to another fucking layer of RNG.
    Thats the truth why they are removing Master Loot, not to "protect their vulnerable players from abuse", but to keep the treadmill going.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dydric View Post
    I don't think this is one of the best thing that blizz added... this will make the game way for fair... now ppl may even join guilds
    This will kill guilds even more than blizzard has already killed them.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Ipsissimus View Post
    I don't care what the majority does. They can do pet battles, LFR, spam M+, ERP in Goldshire, shit on the streets of Stormwind. There's zero justification for Blizzard to take away a loot system that's already limited to guilds only. You can't reserve or ninja items anymore. What my guild does in its raids has zero effect on the rest of the population playing the game.
    It's fine that you don't care what the majority does, the majority doesn't care about what you do either. The justification for Blizzard to take away this loot system is that it is damaging in 99% of the cases. It isn't being limited to guilds only, by the way, but even if it was, this would be irrelevant, the limit is evidently not big enough. In the vast majority of cases, the option is bad. Removing it is a good decision.

    "Best yet, said supposed 'street shitters' QQ has absolutely nothing to do with why Blizzard is taking away ML." - disagree.
    Last edited by rda; 2018-03-19 at 12:59 PM.

  19. #159
    The best part is how removing ML is supposed to stop or slow down split runs yet every guild I know of that does them already has a way to get around it.
    I also dont think that ML will be removed with the current backlash it's having through out several forums, youtube and twitch.

  20. #160
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allenschezar View Post
    But i don't see why you would be kicked out of a guild for that behaviour if PL really is mandatory in the future. Except the RL, GL, Officer or whatever really is a dickbag who want's to control the loot as he pleases.
    It has nothing to do with "dickbags" - most guilds which progress mythic and aim to get a clear before nerfs prefer to have control over gear so they can optimize the raid as a whole by distributing loot to people who need it most.

    If this whole lootsystem becomes a thing and provided trading is still open - player that will be caught cheating the guild out of loot - will be either kicked or put on notice, it's pretty standard.

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