How do split runs work?
But i don't see why you would be kicked out of a guild for that behaviour if PL really is mandatory in the future. Except the RL, GL, Officer or whatever really is a dickbag who want's to control the loot as he pleases.
Ok i guess if you really do it with bad intentions in mind like preventing others to get loot you might not need anyway ok. But i highly doubt someone like that raids organized in the first place. Or at least not mythic i guess. I would have yet to find someone investing time for mythic raiding who does not want the Group to benefit instead of the individual.
I see the problem with Master Loot being removed. Good gear might go to waste just because it's only a small ilvl upgrade for me but a big upgrade for someone else.
But i highly doubt this will have such a major impact on the progression for the regular Mythic guild. In the end bosses will still die. For most of them it's still Mechanics > DPS. Yes the real gear check bosses might over all take a bit longer to kill.
But it's not the end of the World IMO.
I know this is a longshot but in the same Q&A it was mentioned that they are reworking loot in terms of statweight etc. The key message being "Ilvl > Stats" if i remember correctly (like you said). I know there is no guarantee it's gonna be like that. But if it holds true scenarios like the ones you describe would be rather rare.
So at least in that regard i think and hope we will see some improvement.
Last edited by Allenschezar; 2018-03-19 at 12:30 PM.
There is little incentive to do this. I am mostly into PVP, but when I did lead raids (to get PVE abuse which you were trash without), I was using master loot as well and reserving items. Because what? Right, because the option is there.
It's just a bad option to have.
Do elaborate on the "get PVE abuse which you were trash without" part, I'm not quite sure what you mean.
So in essence what you're saying is that you yourself have a selfish and leeching mindset when it comes to raiding therefore cannot envision others behaving themselves a tad more respectfully when it comes to the loot they earn as a group?
In WotLK and Cata you had to PVE if you wanted to PVP other than casually because there were PVE items that were unparalleled in PVP (you have to PVE in order to PVP in Legion too, but for a different reason). Some of my characters had specs that were unlucky enough to have such PVE items overpowering all PVP items in the relevant slots. So I wanted to get these PVE items and I was forming raids to get them. I was using master loot and was reserving items in advance.
What I am saying is that when there are big incentives to act selfishly, people will do so. Some won't, but the vast majority will. And that's not because the vast majority is somehow bad, it's because the incentives are bad. You make it profitable to shit on streets, you will get shit on streets. That's what this option is.
^ The mantra of the ignorant fool.
We have numerous expansions and major patches to prove that things that "make it to alpha" usually stay to live, no matter how many people complain about it. It's only the fun shit (Titan Paths, Dance Studio, etc.) that usually gets cut out from alpha or pre-alpha.
This change isn't really going to solve anything. We are already ready to implement new rules for split raids for the personal loot system. We also heard guilds like Limit with their own process after this change is a applied. We can easily guess that method and other guilds will also have this.
This might have some effects on the first raid, but none of the next raids.
What is mind bogling about this change is how people want blizzard to babysit them. Master Loot in legion was already limited only to guilds, and people are free to leave guilds who do not offer what they want.
This will create new social problems inside guilds. Pressure to trade items you can trade will arise, sour taste to the guy who has to trade even if he does so or not. Worst players of the guild getting rewarded by RNG (similar to the legendary system in legion) will always create drama. So personal loot solves nothing really, it just creates new problems.
People who are fond of this change inside guilds are usualy those who perform really bad and dont want to see others recieve loot before they do. It's sad really.
I am strongly against on removing the choice and letting the players choose what they believe is best for their organization. I think its a mistake and hope they go back from this decision.
Last edited by Allenseiei; 2018-03-19 at 12:43 PM.
If i may be so bold to butt in this conversation.
For me it's less the question if the persons handling loot can be trusted to handle it fairly. But i highly doubt there are many who have a broad knowledge of every class and spec.
So the question imo really comes down to "can you trust your raid members?" rather then the people being ML. Because the ML heavily relies on the information he or she is given. So to an extend in the end it might look like the ML in a Raid handles loot unfairly but only because of missleading or false information from his or her raidmembers.
With PL this of course seems less of a problem. There is no scapegoat to blame. But the problem would still persist. Someone who is out for his or her personal advantage just doesn't need to make excuses anymore.
Last edited by Allenschezar; 2018-03-19 at 12:49 PM.
Thank you for clarifying what you meant.
I do remember what PvPing was like in WotLK and Cataclysm. I had offers to have my Mage (DFO, all the right socketed jewelry, etc.) piloted just so random-RMP-from-my-realm-X could try and secure rank 1 in WotLK. I abused Orange Stick to re-secure Gladiator in S10 after foolishly transferring off of my original battlegroup following the MMR reset, rather than camping snugly in my RMP which achieved a safe "top 10" on the battlegroup with full PvP gear early in the season.
I got my PvE-for-PvP gear by consistently showing up for raids in my Heroic guild, and for some of the items I had to wait for quite a while since we gave them first to people they were BiS for in PvE over "Ipsi feels like trying PvP out and he'll probably do alright, let's give him shit 'cause his sarcasm is entertaining". Valanar's Other Signet Ring comes to mind as one that really did forever to obtain, simply because IIRC it was BiS for elemental and a few other specs or some such. I was fine with this, so were my guild mates with me getting it when I eventually did before this or that off-spec that wasn't really played. That's how playing as a team works.
Similarly, various M+ trinkets that drop in Antorus are handed out based on who would indeed benefit from them in M+. I only clear high enough to get my maximum weekly chest ilevel, so when Terminus Signaling Beacon dropped this week it went to our Warrior after some initial mix-up over the highest roll et cetera.
I don't care what the majority does. They can do pet battles, LFR, spam M+, ERP in Goldshire, shit on the streets of Stormwind. There's zero justification for Blizzard to take away a loot system that's already limited to guilds only. You can't reserve or ninja items anymore. What my guild does in its raids has zero effect on the rest of the population playing the game. Minus those who obsesses over their e-peen on wowprogress/wcl/raider.io/what-have-you, and surely it's not those "toxic" individuals the game should be catering to...
Best yet, said supposed 'street shitters' QQ has absolutely nothing to do with why Blizzard is taking away ML. So you guys are really just trying to 'retroactively' justify an asinine decision.
There are indeed a lot of ignorant folks playing the game, as there are distrustful ones. Most Mythic guilds do not have a single person but rather a loot council, with access to their alts, weighted values from the various class theorycrafters and direct information of the attendance, performance and whatever else factor your guild's leadership deems relevant for the distribution of loot. Mistakes still happen, people quit or move guilds. But you still have far greater control over the affairs than "oh look, Ipsi inbredforged his way into multiple max ilevel items, but he's hella busy IRL so he's standing in even more Fire than usual, woe is us".
If a guild's leadership doesn't trust their raiders they should get new ones.
If a player doesn't trust their guild's leadership they should join another one or start their own.
It's nobody's business how we handle this internally.
Last edited by Ipsissimus; 2018-03-19 at 12:56 PM.
Aside from OP's personal skill, which is not what the thread is about, it's quite easy to have orange/purple parses when the guild is funneling gear to you like there's no tomorrow. If you also happened to get your BiS leggo (especially in early Legion) of course you were going to blow everyone's DPS out of the water.
TLDR ML may have its uses, but it also is very prone to abuse. And abused it has been, even if you aren't personally affected.
It's fine that you don't care what the majority does, the majority doesn't care about what you do either. The justification for Blizzard to take away this loot system is that it is damaging in 99% of the cases. It isn't being limited to guilds only, by the way, but even if it was, this would be irrelevant, the limit is evidently not big enough. In the vast majority of cases, the option is bad. Removing it is a good decision.
"Best yet, said supposed 'street shitters' QQ has absolutely nothing to do with why Blizzard is taking away ML." - disagree.
Last edited by rda; 2018-03-19 at 12:59 PM.
The best part is how removing ML is supposed to stop or slow down split runs yet every guild I know of that does them already has a way to get around it.
I also dont think that ML will be removed with the current backlash it's having through out several forums, youtube and twitch.
It has nothing to do with "dickbags" - most guilds which progress mythic and aim to get a clear before nerfs prefer to have control over gear so they can optimize the raid as a whole by distributing loot to people who need it most.
If this whole lootsystem becomes a thing and provided trading is still open - player that will be caught cheating the guild out of loot - will be either kicked or put on notice, it's pretty standard.