Fact or Opinion: Sylvanas indirectly killed Varian

[Powerogue]

I see now why your alliance and your horde cannot stop fighting! Every act of reprisal is itself an act of aggression. And every act of aggression triggers immediate reprisal!

[George Lucas]

I see now why your alliance and your horde cannot stop fighting! Every act of reprisal is itself an act of aggression. And every act of aggression triggers immediate reprisal!

The pandaren have suffered more than everyone else from these threads!

[Kraddark]

Given that the entire Alliance force was on the airships and they were pushing off when the fel reaver grabbed it, I'm not sure what strategy you think would have worked better.

Like, seriously, they were loaded up on the bus and they were starting to drive off, what more could they have done when a 10 story tall mechanical demon literally drops from the sky and grabbed them?

The whole "every man for themselves" retreat was kind of the point. That's what Blizz was trying to convey. Both armies were shattered and they were just trying to get tf off the island. It was survival mode.

The fact it came to that was a result of bad planning. They had no real exit strategy and were totally lost once the Horde retreated. In fact, the airship was initially called in as part of an attack and was used in the retreat out of desperation. If they hadn't just called that attack in, the airship would've been out of position and they would've been wiped out. The Alliance got lucky. I know Blizzard wrote it this way on purpose to increase stakes and establish a bigger sense of danger. That doesn't mean it was a good strategy.

Vol'jin and Varian really mucked it up.

[MikeBogina]

Everything going on right now is Genn's doing. The war between the Alliance and Horde was over, Sylvanas even saves Genn's life. But when he returns, he lies about what happened, because his hate blinded him to why the Horde retreated.

His cowardly attack on Sylvanas that started this new war, him manipulating Anduin into making more attacks on the Horde... unless Mal'ganis switched with Genn, it's all this dudes doing.

Genn indirectly led to the Night Elves losing their home. And hopefully he'll indirectly be responsible for more alliance tragedy but Blizzard does like to sweep under the rug heinous crimes of the alliance(Purge of Dalaran)

[Zyky]

It's neither fact nor opinion. The fact is the Horde was being overrun, their warchief was gut by a demon, their most powerful shaman was knocked out by a demon ship cannon blast, and they were losing vs 3 ships and 3 active portals spawning demons nonstop. You want to know who killed Varian? Jaina. She was there, she has the ability to mass teleport as seen MANY times both in and out of game, yet she left Varian to die.

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Blizzard does like to sweep under the rug heinous crimes of the alliance(Purge of Dalaran)

As an avid Horde lover, this is false. Jaina was NOT acting under Alliance orders, she was, as head of the Kirin Tor, acting under her own orders to purge the Sunreavers from her city for helping Garrosh steal the Bell from Teldrassil. Seeing as which, the Sunreavers were a faction of the Kirin Tor, they never set their allegiance to the Horde, same to the Silver Covenant for the Alliance.

[MikeBogina]

I see now why your alliance and your horde cannot stop fighting! Every act of reprisal is itself an act of aggression. And every act of aggression triggers immediate reprisal!

an awesome moment, MoP really did do an amazing job with the story drive content and moments like these.

But there's still one major problem with this. Jaina helped Darnassus from "her" city and hypocritically damned the horde for doing the same. But then took it out on innocent people of that said city. Lor'themar 100% was in the right and being reasonable while Jaina is completely wrong here.

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As an avid Horde lover, this is false. Jaina was NOT acting under Alliance orders, she was, as head of the Kirin Tor, acting under her own orders to purge the Sunreavers from her city for helping Garrosh steal the Bell from Teldrassil. Seeing as which, the Sunreavers were a faction of the Kirin Tor, they never set their allegiance to the Horde, same to the Silver Covenant for the Alliance.

Never said she was under orders, but you must have missed the part where Alliance soldiers helped in the purge of Dalaran. Jaina has also been an Alliance character throughout wow, when she brought Theramore into the Alliance and then brought Dalaran aswell into the Alliance. Her actions are hers and that of the Alliance as seen by Varian later reprimanding her.
Also can't find it, but once she became head of Dalaran, Varian tried getting her to use that position against the horde and took her advice to make peace(which she later then goes and ruins for him)

[Zyky]

an awesome moment, MoP really did do an amazing job with the story drive content and moments like these.

But there's still one major problem with this. Jaina helped Darnassus from "her" city and hypocritically damned the horde for doing the same. But then took it out on innocent people of that said city. Lor'themar 100% was in the right and being reasonable while Jaina is completely wrong here.

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Never said she was under orders, but you must have missed the part where Alliance soldiers helped in the purge of Dalaran. Jaina has also been an Alliance character throughout wow, when she brought Theramore into the Alliance and then brought Dalaran aswell into the Alliance. Her actions are hers and that of the Alliance as seen by Varian later reprimanding her.
Also can't find it, but once she became head of Dalaran, Varian tried getting her to use that position against the horde and took her advice to make peace(which she later then goes and ruins for him)

They assisted because she asked for the assistance AFTER the Horde used her NEUTRAL city to commit war crimes.

[Aquamonkey]

They assisted because she asked for the assistance AFTER the Horde used her NEUTRAL city to commit war crimes.

TDIL stealing was a war crime.

[A-sayo]

Pretty sure Warcraft Chronicles 4 clearly stated Nomi is responsible for the purge of Stratholme. His food was so disgusting that Arthas started having hallucinations.
PS : It's an opinion. Detheroc says hi.

[Darknessvamp]

Let's get past all this handwaving about Sylvanas and get to the real question: Where was Mekkatorque when Varian needed him? Helping some random lowly Alliance Foot Soldier in his flight enabled mech! At least Genn tried to save Varian. I believe Mekkatorque purposely didn't try and help him because he knew his death would boost the Gnomes standing in the Alliance and enable him to further push his motion for Alliance resources to take back Gnomeregan! #gnomekingofmine #tooshortforthisride #CondemnBetrayerMekkatorque

[Stormspellz]

Hmm. I didn't know this was even a debate. Nothing indirect about it. She set him up and left him there to die and he died. Her plans worked out well for her.

Did you see a different version then everyone else? The horde where overrun, their leader fell, the only option was to retreat. It's not like they didn't signal their retreat.

[MikeBogina]

They assisted because she asked for the assistance AFTER the Horde used her NEUTRAL city to commit war crimes.

what was the war crime they committed that led to her inviting the Alliance soldiers into the city to slaughter innocent citizens?

She was still an Alliance member as seen that she used Dalaran resources to help and aid Darnassus in the first place.

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Pretty sure Warcraft Chronicles 4 clearly stated Nomi is responsible for the purge of Stratholme. His food was so disgusting that Arthas started having hallucinations.
PS : It's an opinion. Detheroc says hi.

You mean the people of Stratholme ate the food and Arthas put them out of their misery

[Syegfryed]

its just a perspective view

like, Varian directly kill himself when he didn't let thrall kill Garrosh

[Felixon]

Relative to BfA's plot, it is without a doubt that Anduin misses his father and feels vengeful. Anduin despite being the faction's leader he would not get pulled into war so easily because he found some powerful crystallized blood. He wouldn't assassinate Goblins but rather try for a peaceful negotiation which is his character. He would've never tried to Siege Lordaeron. Greymane must've eventually told him all of the details of how he sacrificed himself and most importantly why: Sylvanas. She had told Varian she'd cover his flank from the ridge along with the rest of the Horde which prompt him to thank her and her wishing him good luck. This point forward if he had lived, the faction war would be over and Sylvanas and Varian would be friends.

However that isn't the case. Seeing Vol'jin suffering from a lethal wound, Baine overwhelmed by Legion forces and Thrall incapacitated, Sylvanas had no choice but to call for immediate retreat causing Varian to do the same as well which led to you know what. Getting to the point one could say Sylvanas caused his death indirectly which could be a fact causing her to be his murderer while another could say Varian scarified himself to save the Alliance but this could be countered since Jaina could've mass teleported everyone away or that Anduin would take over and Jaina, Varian, Genn, Tess and some Alliance soldiers would've died.

Seeing the Broken Shore as the root of the faction war that occurs in BfA if Anduin ever got the chance would he kill Sylvanas to avenge his father? Ask her why did she leave at the Broken Shore which may be the main cause led to Varian's death? What do you think?

The only one,who is responsible for the death of Varian,is a bloody burning legion.First,with Detheroc's infiltration,which lead to the fiasco at the first place,then,the death itself by legion's puppet gul'dan.

[TickTickTick]

If anything, its Mathias Shaw who killed Varian. Him getting so easily kidnapped by the legion is what caused the whole assault.

Kind of ironic that he walks streets of Stormwind freely and even dared to talk with Anduinn knowing Varian's blood (or dust rather) lies on his hands.

Humans are the greatest traitors ever.

[karumayu]

Blaming Vaian's heroic last stand to be caused by Sylvanas, sort of ruins it. Horde was being overrun and they decided to retreat. With or without Horde's archers the Alliance would have been overrun. Alliance also calls for an retreat and when hindered by this enormous Fel reaver, Varian decides to sacrifice his life for the safety of his people.

[Mumba]

It was Vol'Jin who ordered the retreat, not Sylvanas.

[RomanDark]

Relative to BfA's plot, it is without a doubt that Anduin misses his father and feels vengeful. Anduin despite being the faction's leader he would not get pulled into war so easily because he found some powerful crystallized blood. He wouldn't assassinate Goblins but rather try for a peaceful negotiation which is his character. He would've never tried to Siege Lordaeron. Greymane must've eventually told him all of the details of how he sacrificed himself and most importantly why: Sylvanas. She had told Varian she'd cover his flank from the ridge along with the rest of the Horde which prompt him to thank her and her wishing him good luck. This point forward if he had lived, the faction war would be over and Sylvanas and Varian would be friends.

However that isn't the case. Seeing Vol'jin suffering from a lethal wound, Baine overwhelmed by Legion forces and Thrall incapacitated, Sylvanas had no choice but to call for immediate retreat causing Varian to do the same as well which led to you know what. Getting to the point one could say Sylvanas caused his death indirectly which could be a fact causing her to be his murderer while another could say Varian scarified himself to save the Alliance but this could be countered since Jaina could've mass teleported everyone away or that Anduin would take over and Jaina, Varian, Genn, Tess and some Alliance soldiers would've died.

Seeing the Broken Shore as the root of the faction war that occurs in BfA if Anduin ever got the chance would he kill Sylvanas to avenge his father? Ask her why did she leave at the Broken Shore which may be the main cause led to Varian's death? What do you think?

You said it yourself, Sylvanas signaled a retreat. The Alliance noticed and made their own decision to do the same. Just because Varian died during that retreat, doesn't mean it's her fault. Now if she had left them without sounding the horn and the Alliance were unawares, then they died from not being covered, you would then have a bit more ground to stand on saying it's, in part, her fault. Also, if she hadn't called for retreat, both factions would have foolishly pressed on and lost everything. She did what her warchief commanded by not allowing the Horde to be wiped out.

[Magnagarde]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one that destroyed Darnassus.

Highly doubt it. The night elves saved him and his people, in addition to Darnassus basically becoming his people's home.

If anything, I believe this infuriated him even more.

[Leyre]

Uther killed Varian, had he not left Arthas on his crusade alone, he wouldnt have become mad, the LK would have never taken possesion of his body, garrosh would have never been send to northrend to fight him, etc