Tyrannical vs. Fortified balance

[styil]

Many dungeon bosses in WoW are designed in such a way that they get progressively more difficult the longer they are dragged out for and become unmanageable after a certain time. I'll call this "time scaling". Perfect example is last boss in Court of Stars.

So when dungeon boss encounters become 40% longer because of Tyrannical (which is about 3+ key levels of hp), it suddenly becomes much harder to manage the encounter because it is almost certain that "time scaling" will kick in. In addition, many more mechanics scale to 1 shot territory very quickly.

Compare this Fortified where most mobs do not have "time scaling". Most mobs do the same thing until they die (or in a lot of cases, nothing really). That makes it so you can mostly get by Fortified weeks with enough attrition even if output is low.

This creates an imbalance between these two affixes. Output requirements are much tighter in Tyrannical weeks and as a result, the Tyrannical affix is generally much harder to handle, particularly in the non-cutting edge level where players do not have the luxury of cherry picking group compositions.

Possible solutions to this problem are:
- stop designing boss encounters with "time scaling", or;
- add more "time scaling" trash mobs and slightly reduce the +hp of both tyrannical and fortified. I think this would balance out participation between the Fortified and Tyrannical weeks.

[Deleted]

There's no problem. Some affixes are harder than others. Some impact dungeon x more while others impact dungeon y more. It's even across all servers for all players. Stop imagining problems where there are none.

[Socialhealer]

last boss CoS countered by blood dk, my 943 can solo a tyrannical +10 advisor melandrus, he never took away my blood shield LUL.

might hurt the timer but yeah if the other 4 die, i can easily solo him the damage has a cap so it's not exponential damage.

i'd assume a 970+ blood dk could solo him even on +24 so no issues there.

[Slatch]

Did you just unnecessarily rename the term "soft enrage" into "time scaling"?

[Deleted]

These 2 are a relic of the timed design when getting failed run, 1 chest upg, or 2/3 chest was a big deal and made a difference. So time on trash mattered and fortified was a thing. When the change to the M+ chest/key mechanic happened these 2 affixes became very uneven.

[Nefarious Tea]

Did you just unnecessarily rename the term "soft enrage" into "time scaling"?

Dungeons go down so quickly outside of M+ and raid bosses almost never have soft enrages anymore; it's not outside the realm of possibility that there are people who have not encountered the term.

[ID811717]

Many dungeon bosses in WoW are designed in such a way that they get progressively more difficult the longer they are dragged out for and become unmanageable after a certain time. I'll call this "time scaling". Perfect example is last boss in Court of Stars.

This only concerns healer's mana, right? The only boss with soft enrage I can recall is BRH 3rd boss because it eventually covers the entire floor with the green slime.

Other than pushing healer's mana, the only difficulty on tyrannical is that the bosses force you to correctly play the mechanics multiple times (instead of just 1-2). You actually need to plan your defensive cooldowns carefully so you don't run out of them.

[daenerys]

This only concerns healer's mana, right? The only boss with soft enrage I can recall is BRH 3rd boss because it eventually covers the entire floor with the green slime.

Other than pushing healer's mana, the only difficulty on tyrannical is that the bosses force you to correctly play the mechanics multiple times (instead of just 1-2). You actually need to plan your defensive cooldowns carefully so you don't run out of them.

There's also the second boss in CoEN you can runn out of bookshelves to crush. Last boss on court of stars the room can fill up, EoA the second boss you can run out of islands to sand on.

[Ningjinq]

They are changing tyrannical and fortified to tier 2 affixes I believe so concern is pretty moot now

- - - Updated - - -

There's also the second boss in CoEN you can runn out of bookshelves to crush. Last boss on court of stars the room can fill up, EoA the second boss you can run out of islands to sand on.

There’s a limit to the amount of tornados that can be up at once on last boss on CoS. It’s about 8.

[ID811717]

There's also the second boss in CoEN you can runn out of bookshelves to crush. Last boss on court of stars the room can fill up, EoA the second boss you can run out of islands to sand on.

Right, I agree with those examples.
Except (as pointed out above) the last CoS boss. Advisor Melandus will have at most 6 images up at any time (used to be 8, but it was nerfed at some point), and the first time it happens is by the 3rd Slicing Maelstrom, roughly 74 seconds into the fight. Starting from that point, the damage no longer increases.

[Ophenia]

Dungeon bosses were never the most interesting content in World of Warcraft, so Tyrannical keys making them able to survive for more than 30 seconds is really a boring concept from the beginning.

[Aggrophobic]

There's no problem. Some affixes are harder than others. Some impact dungeon x more while others impact dungeon y more. It's even across all servers for all players. Stop imagining problems where there are none.

If Blizzard wants to turn m+ into an esport then balance is very important.
If they don't then fun game play is important. You don't get that by having a poorly balanced game.

[hulkgor]

Dungeon bosses were never the most interesting content in World of Warcraft, so Tyrannical keys making them able to survive for more than 30 seconds is really a boring concept from the beginning.

I disagree entirely.

At high enough level of Mythic+ (in relation to the groups avg ilvl), Tyrannical actual turns many dungeon bosses into interesting fights with actual mechanics to deal with and very punishing if you don't properly deal with them, instead of snoozefests.

[Haibara]

Using your example of Court of Stars, keeping in mind they did nerf/alter the encounter mid-expansion, it is still a good example of your query. The highest completed CoS is 27, on Fortified and Tyrannical. There may be more Fortified completions, but even at the very top of the ladder it does not rule out the possibility of a timed clear. At some point it comes down to your level of focus and willingness to admit to your own mistakes rather than a mathematical impossibility.

Tyrannical is a high risk/high reward system, you get a few windows of opportunity that truly matter in terms of time. Fortified is more lenient, wipes cost you less on trash. With the added drawback of a higher number of total damage required to clear the instance.

Regardless, a somewhat moot point. Blizzard has set the "competitive" scene to 17, and very few bother above the minimum requirement for max yield, 15. Which quite clearly, is far from an impossibility, and shows they're happy with the level of difficulty for the rewards. At which point this becomes a discussion regarding level of difficulty, an entirely different subject.

[Deleted]

Many dungeon bosses in WoW are designed in such a way that they get progressively more difficult the longer they are dragged out for and become unmanageable after a certain time. I'll call this "time scaling". Perfect example is last boss in Court of Stars.

So when dungeon boss encounters become 40% longer because of Tyrannical (which is about 3+ key levels of hp), it suddenly becomes much harder to manage the encounter because it is almost certain that "time scaling" will kick in. In addition, many more mechanics scale to 1 shot territory very quickly.

Compare this Fortified where most mobs do not have "time scaling". Most mobs do the same thing until they die (or in a lot of cases, nothing really). That makes it so you can mostly get by Fortified weeks with enough attrition even if output is low.

This creates an imbalance between these two affixes. Output requirements are much tighter in Tyrannical weeks and as a result, the Tyrannical affix is generally much harder to handle, particularly in the non-cutting edge level where players do not have the luxury of cherry picking group compositions.

Possible solutions to this problem are:
- stop designing boss encounters with "time scaling", or;
- add more "time scaling" trash mobs and slightly reduce the +hp of both tyrannical and fortified. I think this would balance out participation between the Fortified and Tyrannical weeks.

I faced the exact same issue this week with my warrior (+18 CoS) for the weekly chest, the group disbanded at last boss after 3 attempts.

I swallowed it and did a +18 NL after that with ease.

Some dungeons are no-no during certain affixes. Just learn which are the good/best for the week and doing a +15 for the weekly chest won't be stressful.

[Marrilaife]

Obviously it's not balanced if most top key pushers ALWAYS pick fortified weeks to push. They aren't doing it for no reason.

Another thing is if your group is lacking in any department, you can deal with fortified with cc, kiting and other methods to lower the burden on healer or dps requirement. You can't cc or kite bosses. You either have the tools and output to beat them, or you fail. If you ask me what's worse in a pure pug, teeming explosive fortified (definition of cancer) or current grievous tyrannical... unfortunately the second one. In organized group the former could be worse because explosive severely punishes you for trying to just mass pull and aoe and slows you down, but in pugs... I think grievous tyrannical is where keys are broken atm. Some groups just can't pass some bosses no matter what.

[Deleted]

If Blizzard wants to turn m+ into an esport then balance is very important.
If they don't then fun game play is important. You don't get that by having a poorly balanced game.

Balance is impossible. Just check raider.io for class distribution at higher keys. There are only a few that are viable above certain levels and the rest is literally trash category. It seems they are fine with it, otherwise it would cause issues in raiding environment.

[Aggrophobic]

Balance is impossible. Just check raider.io for class distribution at higher keys. There are only a few that are viable above certain levels and the rest is literally trash category. It seems they are fine with it, otherwise it would cause issues in raiding environment.

I doubt they are fine with it. It's hard to fix mid expansion though.
But the pruning and slowdown of game play in BfA might be a way for them to try and work more on balance.

[Deleted]

I doubt they are fine with it. It's hard to fix mid expansion though.
But the pruning and slowdown of game play in BfA might be a way for them to try and work more on balance.

The issue is that the game is too complex and changing 1 thing would affect 3 other and cause even more trouble. It needs either more testing or more manpower during developement phase, but it's obvious that they lack both.

I get what some ppl expect from the game, to become competitive e-sport, but when it was born, this category was not e-sport material. There was no need for it. The game just can't keep up with the competitors.

Just compare an FPS in complexity with this game. And which category is a better e-sport material?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

For many instances I prefer Tyrannical, because - as tank - there are fewer variables to keep track of in boss fight than with some trash packs. Then again, I mostly tank Alliance so we don't have mass silence every few seconds. And I suspect Blizz will not have bosses like Hyrja in BfA, since they will be balancing around M+ from the get-go.