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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    But the pruning and slowdown of game play in BfA might be a way for them to try and work more on balance.
    Sincerely doubt so, the BFA philosophy is announced as "double down on class strengths and make some even more limited to narrower number of specs", like pruning blinks and aoe stuns from several specs. This will make even narrower number of specs "have what's required" for high m+. First of all, some classes are garbage tier due to lack of immunities or weak defensives. If they don't want to make these more widespread among the classes, there will be "haves" and "havenots" and probably there will be even more "havenots" because Blizz decided these strengths don't belong to so many classes.

    Same thing with limiting kiting tools like slows, displacements and aoe stuns - classes without these will be at a disadvantage unless Blizzard does something about the overall "kiting meta". And what can they do? Put an affix that makes mobs unslowable? That will just make people skip that week.

    Class fantasy is a cool thing, but I'm waiting for the day Blizzard invents what a priest can bring to be desirable in m+ because atm it's outclassed by everyone, both healer and dps, you can play a priest but the heck why?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    I doubt they are fine with it. It's hard to fix mid expansion though.
    But the pruning and slowdown of game play in BfA might be a way for them to try and work more on balance.
    That's when I find reworks mid-expansion a little rough, when they do happen. It's awesome when you're at the bottom of the barrel, but it sucks when you're brought down to that level.

    Be that as it may, there's always too much of a "right" answer when it comes to what you pick (been that way since challenge modes in MoP). For example, as someone mentioned earlier, blood DK's can easily solo many mythic+ bosses w/o a healer where some tanks cannot... that's probably not balanced nor should be tolerated especially if there isn't a tradeoff. Same thing can happen with healers, where the design and toolkit of some classes completely dominates over another healer class. DPSers also have similar issues, especially when designed to have outstanding DPS in varying scenarios with oustanding survival potential and utility at the same time... if you can have the best of all worlds, being a DPSer that's only good at one (or none) is only a detriment.

    I'd say the balancing problem comes down to the balance between PvE raiding, PvE mythic+, and PvP. PvP sort of solved it by templates and separate PvP talents, and I wouldn't put it past Blizz to go the template route in mythic+ (I wouldn't want this, but it's an option they have). At this point, as long as Blizz feels every spec of every class fits in somewhere in the content, they're happy. Sucks if you only wish to do one realm of content, though.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    For many instances I prefer Tyrannical, because - as tank - there are fewer variables to keep track of in boss fight than with some trash packs. Then again, I mostly tank Alliance so we don't have mass silence every few seconds. And I suspect Blizz will not have bosses like Hyrja in BfA, since they will be balancing around M+ from the get-go.
    So you say horde has advantage in M+ compared to alliance?... Who would have thought. Balancing should start with getting rid of all cc type racials (and somehow these are all only on horde side), but no, just look at higmountain tauren. They don't give a f. about balance.

  4. #24
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonol View Post
    So you say horde has advantage in M+ compared to alliance?... Who would have thought. Balancing should start with getting rid of all cc type racials (and somehow these are all only on horde side), but no, just look at higmountain tauren. They don't give a f. about balance.
    Blood Elves are widely acknowledged to be strongest race for M+. Just look at the leader boards. Tauren and Trolls are strong too; there is no doubt Horde has better racials overall (for M+ at least).

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  5. #25
    More single target, less AoE. ez game, ez life.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    Blood Elves are widely acknowledged to be strongest race for M+. Just look at the leader boards. Tauren and Trolls are strong too; there is no doubt Horde has better racials overall (for M+ at least).
    Which is idiotic and impossible to think/talk about it seriously. This game is full of fundamental issues that harms any kind of e-sport ambitions.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonol View Post
    The issue is that the game is too complex and changing 1 thing would affect 3 other and cause even more trouble. It needs either more testing or more manpower during developement phase, but it's obvious that they lack both.

    I get what some ppl expect from the game, to become competitive e-sport, but when it was born, this category was not e-sport material. There was no need for it. The game just can't keep up with the competitors.

    Just compare an FPS in complexity with this game. And which category is a better e-sport material?
    I agree. The game does not make for very intresting esports. I'm not a Blizzard dev however. They sure are trying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    That's when I find reworks mid-expansion a little rough, when they do happen. It's awesome when you're at the bottom of the barrel, but it sucks when you're brought down to that level.

    Be that as it may, there's always too much of a "right" answer when it comes to what you pick (been that way since challenge modes in MoP). For example, as someone mentioned earlier, blood DK's can easily solo many mythic+ bosses w/o a healer where some tanks cannot... that's probably not balanced nor should be tolerated especially if there isn't a tradeoff. Same thing can happen with healers, where the design and toolkit of some classes completely dominates over another healer class. DPSers also have similar issues, especially when designed to have outstanding DPS in varying scenarios with oustanding survival potential and utility at the same time... if you can have the best of all worlds, being a DPSer that's only good at one (or none) is only a detriment.

    I'd say the balancing problem comes down to the balance between PvE raiding, PvE mythic+, and PvP. PvP sort of solved it by templates and separate PvP talents, and I wouldn't put it past Blizz to go the template route in mythic+ (I wouldn't want this, but it's an option they have). At this point, as long as Blizz feels every spec of every class fits in somewhere in the content, they're happy. Sucks if you only wish to do one realm of content, though.
    Templates for everything seems like a dangeous path to go down. You might end up with like 3-4 games (more or less) and trying to balance them seperatly might be even harder. I really hope they won't try this.

  8. #28
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonol View Post
    Which is idiotic and impossible to think/talk about it seriously. This game is full of fundamental issues that harms any kind of e-sport ambitions.
    I'm not really fussed about it; it's just a game, but even Ion agreed that Blood Elf racial probably needed a nerf. Aren't they increasing CD or something?

    As for E-sports, I have to say the first M+ invitational was very entertaining, especially that grand finals between Team Honestly and Free Marsy. Looking forward to the next one.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  9. #29
    Agree. Tyrannical is currently harder than fortified for most dungeons. Curious to see how this will be managed in BfA.

  10. #30
    I really think that if there isn't a more in-depth fix coming the damage bonus on bosses for tyrannical should be toned down. Maybe that should be done anyway, a lot of the "OP" difficulty of tyrannical comes from players being unable to survive and this can become tricky at times when bosses are still dying fast enough. It's only 15% damage but one of the major limits on pushing m+ is survivability because of the way that it scales right now.




    The bonus to damage vs health per mythic+ level should definitely be looked at - we gain damage from gear much faster than we gain health but m+ scales up enemy HP and damage at the same rate.

    This inevitably leads to time-to-kill on both us and the enemies dropping to an unhealthy extent as we go up in gear and key levels; attempts to balance this would lead to TTK being too high at low keys and too low at high keys, it's the scaling across a range of key levels that is the issue.

    If enemies gained less damage (say +7% damage and +10% HP per key level instead of +10% to both) they'd hit us for less at the high end and we'd be able to play at a higher key level where they have more health too; that time-to-kill on both us and the enemies would stay more well balanced across a wider range of key levels. Difficulty would shift away from oneshot mechanics to other things.
    Last edited by Svisalith; 2018-03-20 at 08:51 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    I'm not really fussed about it; it's just a game, but even Ion agreed that Blood Elf racial probably needed a nerf. Aren't they increasing CD or something?
    Already done, cooldown increased from 1.5min to 2.5min on BfA Alpha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Class fantasy is a cool thing, but I'm waiting for the day Blizzard invents what a priest can bring to be desirable in m+ because atm it's outclassed by everyone, both healer and dps, you can play a priest but the heck why?
    Can't wait for BfA, Shadow Priest sucks in Legion but at least we can mass-stun, mass-dispell if needed and soak something with 1-and-something minute cooldown Dispersion.
    In BfA we'll be able to mass fear (who on Earth would want that in their group ?), massdispell once per dungeon and soak something every 2 minutes (even losing the 50% healing regen from the Artifact), while still having ramp-up damage that sucks massively in dungeons.

    Isn't that awesome ?

  12. #32
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    One option would be to reduce RNG on Tyrannical bosses, e.g. not using their one-shot mechanics on same target repeatedly. If they had to cycle through party members, even in random order, that would allow classes with limited defensives a fair shot at survival.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Svisalith View Post
    I really think that if there isn't a more in-depth fix coming the damage bonus on bosses for tyrannical should be toned down. Maybe that should be done anyway, a lot of the "OP" difficulty of tyrannical comes from players being unable to survive and this can become tricky at times when bosses are still dying fast enough. It's only 15% damage but one of the major limits on pushing m+ is survivability because of the way that it scales right now.




    The bonus to damage vs health per mythic+ level should definitely be looked at - we gain damage from gear much faster than we gain health but m+ scales up enemy HP and damage at the same rate.

    This inevitably leads to time-to-kill on both us and the enemies dropping to an unhealthy extent as we go up in gear and key levels; attempts to balance this would lead to TTK being too high at low keys and too low at high keys, it's the scaling across a range of key levels that is the issue.

    If enemies gained less damage (say +7% damage and +10% HP per key level instead of +10% to both) they'd hit us for less at the high end and we'd be able to play at a higher key level where they have more health too; that time-to-kill on both us and the enemies would stay more well balanced across a wider range of key levels. Difficulty would shift away from oneshot mechanics to other things.
    I haven't crunched any numbers but this sounds like an idea worth considering.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    Agree. Tyrannical is currently harder than fortified for most dungeons. Curious to see how this will be managed in BfA.
    Not really, it's a pretty even split. Dungeons like NL, EoA, Cathedral(post 100 nerfs to every boss in here) and the lot have faceroll ass bosses tyranical or not. It takes a 23+ to make some of these guys threatening, and at that point most dungeons start getting hard regardless of affixes.

    Then you have dungeons like HoV where 1 boss is hard on high tyrannical, but it doesn't even matter for the rest.

    Meanwhile there is a hell of a lot more 1 shot mechanics if not cheesed from high fortified trash then I can think of for tyrannical.

  14. #34
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    This only concerns healer's mana, right? The only boss with soft enrage I can recall is BRH 3rd boss because it eventually covers the entire floor with the green slime.

    Other than pushing healer's mana, the only difficulty on tyrannical is that the bosses force you to correctly play the mechanics multiple times (instead of just 1-2). You actually need to plan your defensive cooldowns carefully so you don't run out of them.
    What about Lu'ra in Seat of the Triumvirate? Can't she gain stacks in p2 indefinitely?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Not really, it's a pretty even split. Dungeons like NL, EoA, Cathedral(post 100 nerfs to every boss in here) and the lot have faceroll ass bosses tyranical or not. It takes a 23+ to make some of these guys threatening, and at that point most dungeons start getting hard regardless of affixes.

    Then you have dungeons like HoV where 1 boss is hard on high tyrannical, but it doesn't even matter for the rest.

    Meanwhile there is a hell of a lot more 1 shot mechanics if not cheesed from high fortified trash then I can think of for tyrannical.
    Not EoA; Lady Hatecoil and Wrath of Azshara are up there as difficult bosses (IMO).

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    What about Lu'ra in Seat of the Triumvirate? Can't she gain stacks in p2 indefinitely?
    No, it caps at 100.

  16. #36
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Some affixes are harder than other, it's fine.

    Bad loots is what makes good loots FeelsGood. Same for affixes. And same for everything in life. You can't enjoy good things if you don't have bad to compare them to.
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by lonely zergling View Post
    No, it caps at 100.
    I can't quite imagine anyone surviving that long at higher key levels.

    I might be wrong, but that sounds like it would start reaching one shot territories.
    My group avoids Seat like the plague though, despite my requests.

  18. #38
    I mean affixes in general aren't very well balanced. Grievous is far worse than anything else in its category in almost all cases, for instance. The difference between Fortified and Tyrannical is not that significant in practice because trash also gets bullshit one-shot mechanics that you have to cheese at higher levels.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I can't quite imagine anyone surviving that long at higher key levels.

    I might be wrong, but that sounds like it would start reaching one shot territories.
    My group avoids Seat like the plague though, despite my requests.
    We played seat 19 tyrannical shortly after the release (3rd id) of the dungeon and reached the 100 cap at last boss. Was really hard to survive but possible with 2 affliction warlocks.

    3rd boss was way harder. Glad they nerfed that place since then.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    For many instances I prefer Tyrannical, because - as tank - there are fewer variables to keep track of in boss fight than with some trash packs. Then again, I mostly tank Alliance so we don't have mass silence every few seconds. And I suspect Blizz will not have bosses like Hyrja in BfA, since they will be balancing around M+ from the get-go.
    Yeah, Hyrja is a pain on Tyrannical. Considering that she gets increased damage the longer she is on one side with respect to the abilities she gets from that side.

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