Master Looter

[Deleted]

If you show up 3 times and I show up 30 times, I have 10 more chances than you do at the loot.

There are quotes that tell you, right in that moment, when someone is not doing any end-game content. Hint: Not all bosses die in one session. It's something called progress. I show up for 100 wipes, you show up on kill day and we tag you along because we need your class. Loot drops, you get something, I didn't, when I was there for the 100 progress wipes. How's that fair?

[Incarnia]

I have been raiding Mythic for the past 2 years in 3 different guild and have had bad experience with master loot.
1) It sucks to login and before you even kill the bosses you know that all the loot you want will go to x person if it drops.
2) GM and officers always gear themselves first.
3) Officers think it is right that guildies work for the guild to make it better rather than them being people wanting to play and have fun and get rewards.
4) When officers bring their alt in the raids and now have more chance to get loot than you because they need gear more than you.
5) for everyone saying "you should have talked or you are not in a good guild" it doesnt work, theyll tell you to leave if you aint happy
6) In guilds, people join and leave. If you dont leave, you'll end up with very high item level (974il) and ultimately you will almost never get loot because the guild must gear the new raiders and it will take them 3months to get to your point before you start getting loot and this is assuming nobody else leave the guild/join the guild again.

Thus we need forced personal loot. Beside Blizzard said it would allow them to make raids easyer and so overall everyone will be happier (keep getting loot) and it wont be too hard to down bosses. How can you disagree to that? There are only advantages.

No we don't need forced personal loot. Your experience is NOT the norm... I've been in a few guilds with toxic players and drama, however, not a single time has corrupt Loot Council ever been the problem. Loot has always been given out fairly and in a way that would benefit the raid the most.
You are bad at finding a decent guild, or well, good at finding the really shitty ones - whatever sounds better to you.

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Sounds to me you never found a good guild then. You might not want to aknowledge it but there are guilds out there who are capable of distributing loot farely for the sole reason of progression. To benefit the raid not the individual.

If you are stuck in a guild that wants to equip certain members first what will you do if they demand the same thing with PL?

Let's say you raid with PL and get loot. The loot is tradable. But it's your BiS in that slot (Best stats, best perc azerite gear or whatever). Altough it's the same Ilvl as your current item in that slot you really need it since it is your BiS.

But know your current Leader decides you should trade the item to person X since he is an Officer in the guild. If you don't trade the loot you get kicked. Or in your words:


So you are basically in the same spot as before. You don't get the loot but at least the loot system says PL right? So everything must be better.

Bad guilds don't get magically "better" if the Loot System changes.
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As of that i heavily disagree with you. This change does not only bring advantages. There are people out there who raid for the challenge not for the gear. They might not be many but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I for example like to get loot sure. I like to see my character get stronger. But that's nothing compared to get that first kill of a difficult boss with my guild. Something you worked together to get. And for some a big part of that lies with gear distribution. Being able to focus on Guild > Individual.

Just read some of the many responses to threads like this one and you get a good feeling for why people want to keep ML.

Imo there is never need to be forced to use something. Everyone playing this game should be capable to choose what he / she wants to do. If you feel mistreated the way your guild distributes loot search for a guild that does it in a way you enjoy. They are out there for sure.

It's fascinating how many that don't get this...

[Honik]

At first I was like ''WTF, master loot gone?'' But after realizing we wont have tiers in BfA I was like ''Meh, whatever''. Personal isnt that bad, it sure make some stuff easier, some harder but if the ''trade option'' stay, it's okay

[Deadi]

There are quotes that tell you, right in that moment, when someone is not doing any end-game content. Hint: Not all bosses die in one session. It's something called progress. I show up for 100 wipes, you show up on kill day and we tag you along because we need your class. Loot drops, you get something, I didn't, when I was there for the 100 progress wipes. How's that fair?

You wouldn't be able to kill the boss without my char and you would have another 100 wipes. That is how progress works, you check one setup and addapt if it doesnt work for you to get a kill. Number of wipes does not matter only kill matter. If you need my class then i shouldn't be banned for loot. Guild decided during progress that if they had another rouge another mage or any other class they would succeded and they where right cause we killed boss with new setup so i deserve loot same as any raider in the guild.

[kamuimac]

Firstly, I agree that there are pros to using PL. It's a great option to have, if that is what you like. However, I don't like being forced into it. The only time I agree with it being forced is in unorganized groups--essentially LFR. It got a bit dicey in WoD with ninja looting when it wasn't forced in LFG, but I simply refused to join a group that wasn't PL. There were always enough of them out there.

But, hey, it's going to be great when shitty trials get a piece of gear raiders need, instead of raiders who have proven themselves loyal and worthy. Feels good.

But that's probably exactly what trash players want, because they're not being rewarded "fairly" for their under-performance.

and you wonder why blizzard is removing MLto protect people from toxicity

if the boss went down every player who was there deserves loot - you could have always go in there and 15 man it proving how you didnt need them for kill why didnt you do so ?

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It's fascinating how many that don't get this...

its fascinating that after so many years of playig this game you dont realise how hard for average player is to find guild that is not a toxic puddle of egomaniacs behaving like 12 years old whenever anything that is +5 itlv for them drops.

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No we don't need forced personal loot. Your experience is NOT the norm... .

if his experience wouldnt be a "norm" then people wouldnt avoid guilds so much and choose pugging over guilds even if its worse experience overall

[Verdugo]

and you wonder why blizzard is removing MLto protect people from toxicity

if the boss went down every player who was there deserves loot - you could have always go in there and 15 man it proving how you didnt need them for kill why didnt you do so ?

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its fascinating that after so many years of playig this game you dont realise how hard for average player is to find guild that is not a toxic puddle of egomaniacs behaving like 12 years old whenever anything that is +5 itlv for them drops.

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if his experience wouldnt be a "norm" then people wouldnt avoid guilds so much and choose pugging over guilds even if its worse experience overall

Why are you defending another layer of RNG for loot acquisition.

[Deleted]

they are literally 0.01% of the games player base.

This will be off topic, but I really don't like when people are using the word literally wrong.

There are 36680 guilds registered on wowprogress.com under 'tier 21', which in turn are just a fraction of the actual player base. One of those 36680 guilds is method. Thus even 0.0027% (~1/36680th) of the player base is too large of a figure. So, claiming that they are 'literally 0.01%' is, literally, very wrong.

[Deleted]

You wouldn't be able to kill the boss without my char and you would have another 100 wipes. That is how progress works, you check one setup and addapt if it doesnt work for you to get a kill. Number of wipes does not matter only kill matter. If you need my class then i shouldn't be banned for loot. Guild decided during progress that if they had another rouge another mage or any other class they would succeded and they where right cause we killed boss with new setup so i deserve loot same as any raider in the guild.

Or maybe just 3 more wipes without you either. Participation and effort, two very key values for mythic progress, are encouraged with DKP systems. Number of wipes is a good way to count effort. It's not rare to have 30 people online for a fresh run and then 22 when it's progress day. If you force PL, this will get worse.

You deserve loot if you've been part of the guild progress overall. If your participation is next to nothing, you don't deserve it more than those who are always there.

[Allenschezar]

its fascinating that after so many years of playig this game you dont realise how hard for average player is to find guild that is not a toxic puddle of egomaniacs behaving like 12 years old whenever anything that is +5 itlv for them drops.

if his experience wouldnt be a "norm" then people wouldnt avoid guilds so much and choose pugging over guilds even if its worse experience overall

In this case experiences are very different.

I also play a long time now (since classic). And i always found "my" type of guild eventually. Of course it took effort on my part. But if you really want the one guild that fits your way of playing then you will find it if you want to...

This also applies to everyone i knew in these guilds.

So no. I don't think this experience is the norm. But i can understand why some people might think that way. So in that regard i would be interested in your description of the "average player". Because to be honest i see myself as an average player.

Also please explain to me why PL suddenly changes a toxic guild. Because i don't see that happening. As i described a scenario in my last post this is imo what's gonna happen. If a toxic guild is forced to use a new system they will come up with ideas to abuse said new system. I don't think that's gonna change much.

If you have an idea how it's gonna change please tell us. Maybe you have a point I can't see.

On the other hand you will harm the guilds that are in fact not toxic and use ML fairly. And i think it's important to understand why these exact people are angry now. And they have good reasons to be angry.

[Grimnakh]

It's a metaphor to "I had a bad experience with something, therefore get rid of this thing" to your "argument". In any case, my car accident is made-up, like your examples.

I read this as not him having 1 bad experience but an ongoing bad experience with multiple guilds that all can be avoided by removing ML. Ive had bad experiences and ML is one of the reasons I feel little desire to join a mythic raiding guild, Indont want to deal with a commitee and have to kiss asses to get decent rewards, thats like real life bullshit. Im here to have fun. (I did competitive raiding a long long time ago, MC, ZG, Naxx, some BC raiding. Also cleared Antorus heroic week 1 by fighting in pugs all week and easily did a 15 that week after its difficulty was increased).

Gear is relative, if PL is a less powerful gearing method (it is), and its the only thing available the content will be balanced to reflect that.

Main changes that will happen.

1. No more abusing or perception of abusing ML

2. Mythic raids will be released at a difficulty that is more realistic for a lot more guilds to progress in without big nerfs needed unkess Blizz makes tuning mistakes.

3. Blizzard already said they are buffing primary stats more over secondaries to increase rhe chance that ilvl upgrades are usually upgrades so its less likely you get a high ilvl TF thats still bad for you.

4. Some really toxic raid officers quit the game (good riddance, and no Indont mean all people that want to keep ML are toxic, but I am saying some of the most toxic raid leaders arenvery attached to controlling loot)

5. It becomes easier for puggers to transition to mythic raiding if they put in the time, because they arent competing with people who have been gearing with a more powerful gearing system for doing the same content.

6. Guilds will be more attractive to puggers when they advertize for ancouple of people to fill out thier raid roles. (I generally stay away from posts that say guild, Ive had them change loot settings right before the boss pull and not noticed, or just not noticed, now I dont have to worry)

7. Less time and hassle spent worrying about where loot goes and more time on other things (good, the ML minigame is awful)

[Deleted]

I really hope they remove master looter, it's an old archaic mechanic that's for sure not needed any longer. Long gone are the days where we used excel sheets to track attendance and dkp and loot councils are usually craptastic any way. Equal loot for everyone, why are so many people against this? Loot is already so RNG based that some guilds get an advantage based on luck (such as getting Aman'Thuls before killing Argus on key players) that it's not gonna matter much any way.

[Verdugo]

I really hope they remove master looter, it's an old archaic mechanic that's for sure not needed any longer. Long gone are the days where we used excel sheets to track attendance and dkp and loot councils are usually craptastic any way. Equal loot for everyone, why are so many people against this? Loot is already so RNG based that some guilds get an advantage based on luck (such as getting Aman'Thuls before killing Argus on key players) that it's not gonna matter much any way.

"Loot is already RNG, lets make it EVEN WORSE! YAY PROGRESSIVE THINKING!"

[kamuimac]

"Loot is already RNG, lets make it EVEN WORSE! YAY PROGRESSIVE THINKING!"

you are assuming average joe raider hates rng . when proven even but shittiest lootboxes in other game is that players like the thrill of possible reward in nrg systems.

[Allenschezar]

I read this as not him having 1 bad experience but an ongoing bad experience with multiple guilds that all can be avoided by removing ML. Ive had bad experiences and ML is one of the reasons I feel little desire to join a mythic raiding guild, Indont want to deal with a commitee and have to kiss asses to get decent rewards, thats like real life bullshit. Im here to have fun. (I did competitive raiding a long long time ago, MC, ZG, Naxx, some BC raiding. Also cleared Antorus heroic week 1 by fighting in pugs all week and easily did a 15 that week after its difficulty was increased).

Gear is relative, if PL is a less powerful gearing method (it is), and its the only thing available the content will be balanced to reflect that.

Imo PL is not a guarantee for toxic free guilds. And Experiences like the ones he described could happen with PL too. And in my experience if you join a serious mythic guild you wont have to "kiss asses" to get rewards. I raid mythic content with LC as gear distribution i have have my good share of fun each raid. Even if i don't get any loot. So experiences differ.

Main changes that will happen.

1. No more abusing or perception of abusing ML

I doubt that. People who actively abuse the system to screw others will find ways to do so with PL.

2. Mythic raids will be released at a difficulty that is more realistic for a lot more guilds to progress in without big nerfs needed unkess Blizz makes tuning mistakes.

That could very well happen.

3. Blizzard already said they are buffing primary stats more over secondaries to increase rhe chance that ilvl upgrades are usually upgrades so its less likely you get a high ilvl TF thats still bad for you.

I really hope this will come true. If yes then you are right there will be less problems.

4. Some really toxic raid officers quit the game (good riddance, and no Indont mean all people that want to keep ML are toxic, but I am saying some of the most toxic raid leaders arenvery attached to controlling loot)

But will they really? I am not so optimistic about that.

5. It becomes easier for puggers to transition to mythic raiding if they put in the time, because they arent competing with people who have been gearing with a more powerful gearing system for doing the same content.

I don't really see that to be the case. If your 4. point holds true many guilds will despand i guess. Since they can't abuse the system anymore. What would be left are the Guild which weren't toxic in the first place. Now why would a guild like that start to recruit the same people who refused to join them because they aparently "abused ML"?

6. Guilds will be more attractive to puggers when they advertize for ancouple of people to fill out thier raid roles. (I generally stay away from posts that say guild, Ive had them change loot settings right before the boss pull and not noticed, or just not noticed, now I dont have to worry)

They sure will be but vice versa? Not so sure about that.

7. Less time and hassle spent worrying about where loot goes and more time on other things (good, the ML minigame is awful)

That also only holds true for the guilds which don't care. But as a previous poster mentioned they for example like to optimize their loot. So the members in said guild want the loot to benefit the group. So they will still trade loot acordingly (if possible of course). So all PL does for them is make things more complicated.


There are always to sides and while i think this change won't affect our guild too much (maybe an item wasted here and there) we will still do what we do now and that is raid mythic content. But i don't see the point in recruiting a person who comes with the mindset "all is better with PL" "finally no more missing out on loot". We need people who can make sacrifices for "the greater good" if you so will.

[rda]

People who actively abuse the system to screw others will find ways to do so with PL.

If trading of PL items is disabled, there doesn't seem to be a way to abuse loot. Whatever you get from a boss is unpredictable, does not effect what others get and is yours and yours only.

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There are quotes that tell you, right in that moment, when someone is not doing any end-game content. Hint: Not all bosses die in one session. It's something called progress. I show up for 100 wipes, you show up on kill day and we tag you along because we need your class. Loot drops, you get something, I didn't, when I was there for the 100 progress wipes. How's that fair?

Dear, I have been a progression raider and I know all of these "hard dilemmas". None of them are hard.

The answer is that you regulate access to progression raids vs farm raids by allowing people into farm raids as a reward. Until you are far enough into the tier that this stops being important. You don't have to involve loot at all. Moreover, you are going to regulate access to progression raids vs farm raids regardless, you are already doing this in addition to regulating loot.

This is a complete non-issue.

In your example, you show up for 100 wipes and get nothing because of RNG. Then someone else shows up, you pick them up because you want their spec. This, by the way, shows that you are operating in an error recovery mode, because you do not have enough of the regular people to pick from. If you had enough regular people, we wouldn't have your example. But fine, whatever, let's get on with it - you pick a random. So, this random you picked gets a piece of loot. Guess what, he was incredibly lucky. These things happen. You weren't entitled to this loot either, you didn't have the spec you wanted, he had it, so you picked him up and he did the job and he got super-lucky and got the loot, and it is completely fair that it is his. Congratulate him and move on. But wait, this doesn't end here. Next week you again show up and go into the raid and the boss goes down because you supposedly got stronger / wiser and you have one more chance at your loot, and you will continue to have another 100 chances. Because you were there for progression, you have a spot in farm raids now. That random cannot and will not go to your farm raids, but you will. And you will get your loot from those easy farm raids, way more loot than the single piece that the random got. Everything is *completely* fair.

[JohnRoads]

If you look at it from an optimization standpoint it makes sense to be angry about the potential removal of ML.

While it certainly is a big downside, if you as a guild like to optimize everything as much as possible the potentially forced use of PL won't change that mentality tho right? What I try to say is: yes it sucks that blizzard removes yet anoter tool for optimization but will this literally kill your guild?

In my case i would say no. That's the way we like to play so we will find other ways to do it with PL.

If you as a guild hold on to that way of handling your raiding scene this change will certainly impact you but it wont force you to resign or anything like that.

It will most likely not kill any guild if ML is removed, but why take that tool away from guilds in the first place?

[Grimbold of Skullcrusher]

Not really, the corrupt RLs will still force you to hand over all your PL drops. The only thing that really changes that it takes longer to handle drops after a bosskill.

Well you wont be able to hand it over if it is an ilvl upgrade for you. I think in the end it is a good thing.

[Allenschezar]

If trading of PL items is disabled, there doesn't seem to be a way to abuse loot. Whatever you get from a boss is unpredictable, does not effect what others get and is yours and yours only.

If it is completely disabled. Sure i agree. But i never saw a statement that would suggest tradable loot is gone from PL. And If the rules for trading stay the same what will keep an abusive Raid Lead from demanding tradable loot?

Someone made the example earlier that his Raid Lead abuses ML to shuffle loot to certain people first (Guild Officers or whatever) and that if he weren't ok with that he would have to leave the guild.

So in that case you have two options. Leave the guild or stay and put up with the abuse.

Let's say you have the same guild but now it's PL. You get an item that is tradable and it's demanded you give up your loot because certain people are equipped first. Yeah sure you can decline but the scenario stays the same.

You still have two options. Decline and probably get kicked out of the guild or stay and put up with the abuse.

The one thing different is you still have the item once your kicked out of the guild. Great so now you only have to hop abusive guilds until you have your gear. Or you run pugs. But they always had PL to begin with so what's the point in forcing others into PL then?


Or you know. You just could have searched for a good guild which doesn't abuse ML and you wouldn't have a problem in the first place. But after all the hardcore pro PL posts i've read such guilds don't exist after all.

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It will most likely not kill any guild if ML is removed, but why take that tool away from guilds in the first place?

Imo there is no good reason i agree. But i keep reading all the posts about abusing ML and so on. And from the looks of it blizzard decided to listen to them.

So i just try to understand why people think that it's really needed to remove ML. And of course i try to find any positive aspects about that change i guess.

[IceMan1763]

Master loot and loot council are the best way to gear a raid. If you are in a bad guild with a corrupt master looter then leave it.

I was in a good guild once that gave a great trinket to a fresh healer when I had been there months. I think they wanted her to stick around because we had been going through trial after trial for that raid spot. She left about a week later and I had to go two tiers without an almost essential trinket for my class.

My point - Loot council/ML/whatever you use IS subjective by nature. Removing it would be great for the game but only if they also remove trading and add bad luck protection for all drops. Going halfway and keeping trading will actually make things worse than they are now because guilds will start trying to force loot trades among their members.

[IceMan1763]

Dydric, hate to break it to you, but if your guilds would rather DE loot over giving it too you as a trial, it means they think that shard is worth more than you as a player. chances are you're just terrible and think you deserve a participation award in the form of loot for getting carried by that guild

This kind of attitude is EXACTLY why they should remove ML. I hope they do and I hope you quit over it, the game will be MUCH better off.