Thread: Demo Changes!

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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    Just because something is does not mean it ought to be that way. Most of the time it's a false illusion of choice. Basically the freedom to screw yourself over by choosing the suboptimal stats, or a way for the developer to create garbage gear to keep you chasing the good gear.
    or a way to distinguish yourself and be better than the people who have no idea what they are itemizing.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Azelas View Post
    or a way to distinguish yourself and be better than the people who have no idea what they are itemizing.
    You can already distinguish yourself in a raid encounter, so I see no reason to create more bloat of unintuitive information that people will simply run a sim on.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    the dreadstalkers aren't spammable, they have a 20 sec cd and 12 sec duration.

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    the spell is basically a colossal smash for demo. Dreadstalkers have a CD and last only 12 secs (which is the duration of the buff)
    the buff is basically jaws of shadow from thalkiel being baked into a talent. like recurrent ritual and wilfreds being baked into demonic consumption and demonic calling (although the RR talent got a boost because demonic calling also makes them instant)

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    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    also, with the Soul Strike, Power siphon and Demon Core, Demo has gained back some mobility. Implosion seems to be helping with target swapping (for imps). What were some other issues the spec had in legion? I didnt main the spec in legion so im not as keen on certain things.

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    the problem with linking FTS with those talents are its an incorrect correlation. those talents (ELT, Eradication and Shadow Embrace) you have to constantly keep an eye on them to make sure they dont fall off. What FTS is, is a window of damage similar to the Arms BFA (or old) Colossal Smash, or the Ret BFA execution sentence, or Enh Earthen Spike. You dont maintain FTS, its a mini dps window.
    something you'd try to line up with like demon commander and other CDs, pretty much, yeah?

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    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    As demo is still missing a mastery, I really hope it's an interesting mastery. I really hope it's not just : your pets do more damage like the current BM's mastery. i feel the most obvious mastery is gonna be : you and your pets deal X% more damage. While it's a perfectly reasonable mastery, I feel like now is the opportunity to come up with something better.

    Anyone have any ideas?
    maybe some flat damage buff and increased chance of imps giving demonic core procs? it seems like they're really trying to make demo a demon bolt heavy spec, with the instant procs and dogs giving 2 stacks. not so sure about it, but it sounds like something they'd do
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Why cast fire when I have imps to do that for me?

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    Yea I get how it works, I'm just asking how many procs are you getting in say a 20-30 sec interval, outside of the 2 guarantees from dogs? Is it so much that shards/procs are being wasted?

    After saying that, I guess my question comes back to, how often are you getting procs and what kind of shenanigans are you talking about? Plus if it's 10%, how drastic of a drop are you talking?
    I didn't count, but it was pretty much a cycle of constant MC procs and hogs with a few SB's in between to keep it going. The proc rate is already too high. If it were made any higher you would never need to cast SB.

    I can't say what the number it would need to be brought down to would be, but the current number should be at the extreme end of stacking the stat if it were to ever function that way.

    When I look at it from a dk perspective
    When I'm talking about making them like DK runes, I'm saying the imps themselves should function as runes as opposed to using soul shards to summon imps.

    I'm not talking about the current state of things, I was just spitballing an entirely new concept.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I didn't count, but it was pretty much a cycle of constant MC procs and hogs with a few SB's in between to keep it going. The proc rate is already too high. If it were made any higher you would never need to cast SB.

    I can't say what the number it would need to be brought down to would be, but the current number should be at the extreme end of stacking the stat if it were to ever function that way.
    What percentage of your current DC procs are Dreadstalkers? That number won't increase as you get more gear.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinnin View Post
    What percentage of your current DC procs are Dreadstalkers? That number won't increase as you get more gear.
    Didn't pay attention to exact numbers, mostly feelycrafting atm. But the dogs definitely make up the largest chunk, the 100% rate on both dogs feels excessive atm. In the context of Garonne's mastery idea the overall proc rate needs to be brought down significantly for such a thing to be meaningful.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I didn't count, but it was pretty much a cycle of constant MC procs and hogs with a few SB's in between to keep it going. The proc rate is already too high. If it were made any higher you would never need to cast SB.

    I can't say what the number it would need to be brought down to would be, but the current number should be at the extreme end of stacking the stat if it were to ever function that way.

    When I'm talking about making them like DK runes, I'm saying the imps themselves should function as runes as opposed to using soul shards to summon imps.

    I'm not talking about the current state of things, I was just spitballing an entirely new concept.
    For enh, the increase in their procs is a secondary effect, so the increase goes up very small. I think no mastery is like a 8% and decked out now theyre like at 16/18%. So while it's basically double, it's not so huge where it's spammable the whole fight. I bring this up because I wasn't implying our increase would be huge (30,40,50%) but along those same lines.
    If you get a chance, Would you be able to see how many procs you're getting? I was looking at some logs and this one guy got 16 procs of demoncore on a 2:36 min fight (which is the most I've seen -with riders and inner demons) . Idk how well he was playing as I don't have it in my hands personally but that number didn't seem huge. Wanted to compare it.

  8. #408
    1 from each dog you summon (so 2 per cast), so that's easy enough to figure out for a given time frame.

    The imps just fill it out a bit more, the dogs do the heavy lifting as far a procs go.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  9. #409
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    1 from each dog you summon (so 2 per cast), so that's easy enough to figure out for a given time frame.

    The imps just fill it out a bit more, the dogs do the heavy lifting as far a procs go.
    If we get 1 per dog like you say (I have no alpha), that might be the reason it's too much. Though 1 from 2 dogs is weird and 50% chance for each dog just adds RNG for RNG sake...

    I would guess you'd pump out 10 Imps per 20s + dogs = 3 MC at the start. And this can escalate quickly to more Imps/shards with good MC procs. Does add some serious ramp to the spec though.

  10. #410
    I think Nether Portal should be baseline.

    BTW I cant see the logic behind the tier 100 talents, they dont have any shared theme like "AoE" or "CC".

  11. #411
    Well i'm pretty much loving how demo is changing! Only real issues are mastery-doom-target swapping-demons damage! First of all i'd like to see some kind of execute for demonology, this could be done via mastery (your pets deal increase mastery % x % target life lost damage or instead of pets all your and your pets damage); doom seems more like a target focus talent, it could add some kind of buff to demons for every time passed on the same target, something like "your demons do % more damage for doom's hit as long as doom is on the same target up to 10 times (but this way they should reduce it's hitting timer a bit), this way it would keep been a shitty dot, but there could be a reason for choosing it and keeping it on the same target been extremely punishing if it should ever expired (making it like agony but with longer ramp up timer and buffing pets instead of itself)!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    I think Nether Portal should be baseline.

    BTW I cant see the logic behind the tier 100 talents, they dont have any shared theme like "AoE" or "CC".
    well for tier 100 sacrificed souls seems nice, but wil'fred mechanic with pets instead of soul shard could be better, and you're right they should be more related to each other, instead of nether portal they should add something for tyrant giving him some kind of utility addition (something like when tyrant is out each time we summon pets there's some % of summoning double that number), this way we have the single target, aoe and utility!
    Last edited by Demoros; 2018-03-20 at 10:43 AM.

  12. #412
    Doom should summon a Doomguard, like the old times (controlling it ofc).

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    I think Nether Portal should be baseline.

    BTW I cant see the logic behind the tier 100 talents, they dont have any shared theme like "AoE" or "CC".
    the theme is soul Shard dump for more damage.

    by spending shards with the first talent, you're doubling the tyrant which increases the uptime and damage of your pets and guardians.

    second is a small burst window, you get out as many imps (by spending shards) to buff the commander (small because you lose the imps damage)

    third is a larger burst window, pop portal and spend shards as fast as possible in a 10-12 sec window, pop demon commander and keep summoning for the remainder of the 6-8 secs. your normal pets get a buff and duration increase, but your summoned pets from portal should also get an increase. could end up with 30+ demons at 1 time if played right.

    all three with different damage distribution but all focused about spending shards.

    sidenote: i hope the current iteration of Nether Portal is a bug and will be fixed. just a FYI, it summons 1 demon for when we spend soul shards and NOT 1 demon per shard spent which is bullshit in my opinion and makes the talent very unattractive with a 3 min, 20 sec cd. we'll get at most 6-7 extra demons which is poop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    Doom should summon a Doomguard, like the old times (controlling it ofc).
    this is a great idea, but idk if it should be a 100% chance. and in the event its not, a 30 sec, 1 tick dot wouldn't work imo. Make it an actual dot, with actual ticks: ticks every 3 or 5 secs with a 5 or 10% chance per tick to summon a doomguard for 15 secs.
    Last edited by garonne; 2018-03-20 at 05:50 PM.

  14. #414
    Nether Portal is just choking on execution at this point. 3 min CD, cast time, plus its further reliant on us casting our butts off during? That is a ton of things to happen (and not be molested in pvp or raid hazards) for what kind of power? STM in shadowpriests is a 4 min cooldown you just hit and go demigod for 60 seconds and it doesn't kill you anymore. Nether Portal could be a demonic stampede, IE something similar to destro's rain of infernals - a group of potent guardians. It could go to be a shadow to our casting like affliction's ill conceived dot totem but why recycle that mess?

    Demo is one spec the devs love to go "Rube Goldberg" machine on for some reason. At some point KISS needs to step in and not prune but design things without the circus antics involved. What does the spec feel like it needs? Lets give it that in a way that isn't painful to balance, use, or understand. Thus a simpler demon stampede or a big BMF demon (maybe let us select from ST/aoe options?) makes more sense for a summoner spec. Does the skill need more? Buff the BMF...should be easy right? The other two basically are a aoe demon tyrant cooldown vs a more frequent demon tyrant throughput build. Burst/CD vs aoe vs throughput...seems like a reasonable toolkit.

  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Didn't pay attention to exact numbers, mostly feelycrafting atm. But the dogs definitely make up the largest chunk, the 100% rate on both dogs feels excessive atm. In the context of Garonne's mastery idea the overall proc rate needs to be brought down significantly for such a thing to be meaningful.
    Interesting that it feels excessive since it's really not that much resource generation when you get down to it. Call Dreadstalkers gives you 2 Demon Core procs which equates to 4 shards over 3s. Shadowbolt will give you 1.5 shards in that same three seconds. Call Dreadstalkers also costs two shards, so really the total resources over never pressing that button is only ~0.5 Shards (4 - 2(cost of dogs) -1.5(resources you'd get in that same time pressing shadowbolt). Is it just the amount number of instants feels too much?

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinnin View Post
    Interesting that it feels excessive since it's really not that much resource generation when you get down to it. Call Dreadstalkers gives you 2 Demon Core procs which equates to 4 shards over 3s. Shadowbolt will give you 1.5 shards in that same three seconds. Call Dreadstalkers also costs two shards, so really the total resources over never pressing that button is only ~0.5 Shards (4 - 2(cost of dogs) -1.5(resources you'd get in that same time pressing shadowbolt). Is it just the amount number of instants feels too much?
    I'd say its more that the feeling of the proc is diminished when you're casting it so frequently. The amount of shards isn't really an issue (that ultimately all comes down to numbers / tuning anyway) as opposed to it just feels very watered down. It reminds me a lot of legion destro especially at the start of the xpac where we were casting as many CB's as we were incinerates which just devalued CB and made it feel more like casting filler.

    With just the sheer volume of procs its approaching filler in much the same way. It feels more like something that should be opted into via talent or azerite bonus or something of that nature as opposed to baseline as there's not much room to work from there as the proc rate is already incredibly high.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I'd say its more that the feeling of the proc is diminished when you're casting it so frequently. The amount of shards isn't really an issue (that ultimately all comes down to numbers / tuning anyway) as opposed to it just feels very watered down. It reminds me a lot of legion destro especially at the start of the xpac where we were casting as many CB's as we were incinerates which just devalued CB and made it feel more like casting filler.

    With just the sheer volume of procs its approaching filler in much the same way. It feels more like something that should be opted into via talent or azerite bonus or something of that nature as opposed to baseline as there's not much room to work from there as the proc rate is already incredibly high.
    How worried would you be about mobility if the proc rate was lower?

  18. #418
    I'm not sure comparing it to Incin/CB is a fair way to go about it. Just in terms of damage values alone, Demonbolt is absolutely still a filler. It does slightly more sp% than Incinerate, but doesn't get any mastery bonus (as yet) and so is just straight weaker.

    Feels to me more like we're looking at a Solar Wrath/Lunar Strike dual-filler sort of spec, considering the actual damage is still largely from the demons.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I'd say its more that the feeling of the proc is diminished when you're casting it so frequently. The amount of shards isn't really an issue (that ultimately all comes down to numbers / tuning anyway) as opposed to it just feels very watered down. It reminds me a lot of legion destro especially at the start of the xpac where we were casting as many CB's as we were incinerates which just devalued CB and made it feel more like casting filler.

    With just the sheer volume of procs its approaching filler in much the same way. It feels more like something that should be opted into via talent or azerite bonus or something of that nature as opposed to baseline as there's not much room to work from there as the proc rate is already incredibly high.
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    I'm not sure comparing it to Incin/CB is a fair way to go about it. Just in terms of damage values alone, Demonbolt is absolutely still a filler. It does slightly more sp% than Incinerate, but doesn't get any mastery bonus (as yet) and so is just straight weaker.

    Feels to me more like we're looking at a Solar Wrath/Lunar Strike dual-filler sort of spec, considering the actual damage is still largely from the demons.
    it seems the problem you may be having is that you feel that DB should be the CB of the rotation when it could be like what bio said, the Lunar strike, the less often filler spell. HoG may be what fills that role as a spender/big(ger) dps button

  20. #420
    Not really feeling the Imp Mother 2.0 Demo iteration as well. Blizzard will never be able to convince me that imps and dreadstalkers as baseline combat summons is befitting of a "master of demons". I really thought based on what the devs said in that AMA that they'd take Demo in a direction of summoning fewer, more powerful combat demons with caster interaction as the primary theme. Like maybe our Hand of Gul'dan working like Nighthold Gul'dan's Hand of Gul'dan, summoning Jailers, Inquisitors, Overfiends, etc.

    Also has the Doomguard been pruned? Really thought it would show up as a baseline Demo summon. I always thought that the master of demons would have completely different baseline summons than Affliction or Destruction. Maybe the Infernal, Doomguard, Shivarra, and Felguard. Ah well, a man can dream.
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