Thread: Master Looter

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  1. #441
    Warchief Nazrark's Avatar
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    The hate for master loot comes from PUGs. The whole new looking for group system built into the game has exacerbated the issue as well. Before we had the whole MS>OS Master Loot. So before you got into the raid you knew the loot system as a PUG. If you didn't like it then you wouldn't join.

    What this will hurt is groups of friends that play together and already have how they do loot on lockdown. Now we all have to just hope that a boss drops loot for the person that needs it.

    You can't do anything to change the behaviour of World First guilds. They'll sink an unimaginable time into the game in the hopes of getting World First.

  2. #442
    Warchief vsb's Avatar
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    Do they really hate it? Did you made a poll? Did some leaders of high end guilds made any statement regarding this subject?

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    The hate for master loot comes from PUGs. The whole new looking for group system built into the game has exacerbated the issue as well. Before we had the whole MS>OS Master Loot. So before you got into the raid you knew the loot system as a PUG. If you didn't like it then you wouldn't join.

    What this will hurt is groups of friends that play together and already have how they do loot on lockdown. Now we all have to just hope that a boss drops loot for the person that needs it.

    You can't do anything to change the behaviour of World First guilds. They'll sink an unimaginable time into the game in the hopes of getting World First.
    And all that hate for nothing, you can't even ML pugs anymore >.>

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    Do they really hate it? Did you made a poll? Did some leaders of high end guilds made any statement regarding this subject?
    considering many of the top guilds run about 6-7 clears each week on alts in order to ML items to a few mains in each of those runs in order to gear faster id say , yea many of them are most likely pissed. I know its something ive been seeing on Discord amongst our raiders as well as friends in end game guilds.

    With everything to personal loot this is something that cant be done easily anymore

  5. #445
    Mechagnome Xenyatta's Avatar
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    Honestly, I don't like it because I like the option of sending loot where it's most needed rather than a 2% upgrade when there's someone who has a 15% upgrade need.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubulous View Post
    This is actually a really good point that hasnt been mentioned much, thank you
    My experience was the opposite across several raid groups. This is because there was bias with the loot councils, they prefered those that raided regularly. However, they rarely had enough people to fill all of the roles for their raids. So, they would "allow" other to join them on the theme of how fair their loot council is, until loot actually drops. Then when you find out that repeatedly logging in to raid with them accrue points with them, allowing you to get favor with getting loot. However, now you've already started raiding and you'd likely have to sacrifice your lockout in order to simply have most to all of your loot stolen by this council. This fed on itself, making it so that it was "efficient" for many of these groups to "not have enough and therefore were looking for people to join their runs" enticing guildies and randoms alike to join, then simply hurl excuses as to their own biases for loot, holding them hostage in the lockout and effective getting better chances at loot since they have a predisposition to essentially steal loot from their own guildies or people that they'd sucker into raiding with them.

    Swap the loot rules to Personal and you'd have far greater turnout. This is because people knew that loot distribution was many many times farer than with these corrupt councils and even if you needed to invite others, it was far easier and quicker to get new blood for both the raid groups and guild rosters when rolling with Personal Loot. That is, until the corrupt raider would usurp leader positions of groups otherwise used to running Personal, swap the loot rules, and effective start their extortion rackets all over again on otherwise innocent raiders.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Torrasque View Post
    Only you can't trade gear that you can use of a superior ilvl, not only that you can't be screwed out of your loot because you have to be coerced into giving it up loot the first place, instead of corrupt loot councils outright stealing loot for their own biases. Therefore, personal loot absolutely fixes that problem entirely.
    Again, if the loot council is outright ''stealing'' loot you're in a shit guild and you should leave. And if a player puts up with that kind of stuff, they will put up with the loot council demanding that they trade any item they can trade so it can be redistributed. And an item you can trade can very easily be an upgrade if it has better stats, is a better trinket, has better Azerite powers, has a socket, so on and so forth.

    This is no reason to penalize the majority of loot councils which are fair and distribute stuff evenly.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Again, if the loot council is outright ''stealing'' loot you're in a shit guild and you should leave. And if a player puts up with that kind of stuff, they will put up with the loot council demanding that they trade any item they can trade so it can be redistributed. And an item you can trade can very easily be an upgrade if it has better stats, is a better trinket, has better Azerite powers, has a socket, so on and so forth.

    This is no reason to penalize the majority of loot councils which are fair and distribute stuff evenly.
    The issue is that the problem is rampant, it's everywhere in the casual and intermediate raiding space. Not only that, groups that have been long time running can be ruined by one person in the leader position and changing the loot rules to a loot council on the spot.

    This is beside the point that anyone can do that, at any time, because of the way that grouping currently functions.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Greathoudini View Post
    It's been like this since forever. I've never cared for my secondary stats (except for hit back when it was a thing), never did reforging and still topped charts within my gearscore/ilvl bracket.
    In fact Legion has been the most secondary stat reliant expansion since almost forever.
    Blizz has never stated they wanted ilvl>secondary stats until after they announced BFA. Though, it is up to the community to give up their shitty useless min/maxing habits, I guess. Because that's all secondary stat priority will become. A habit.
    For people who enjoy doing high-end content, min/maxing is a must. If that is something you don't care about, that is fine. This game allows tons of people to play the game how they want. Blizzard is taking away player choice and are making the game less enjoyable for a certain group of people. I don't think it is very helpful or productive to talk as if your preferred way of playing is the only valid way of playing this game. The people who are being affected by this change have a right to be upset about it.

  10. #450
    Ideal situation:

    PL everywhere, no exceptions

    PL can never be traded

    only the winner of PL can shard it, and only if they have Enchanting

    Split runs are a perma ban offense.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Torrasque View Post
    The issue is that the problem is rampant, it's everywhere in the casual and intermediate raiding space. Not only that, groups that have been long time running can be ruined by one person in the leader position and changing the loot rules to a loot council on the spot.

    This is beside the point that anyone can do that, at any time, because of the way that grouping currently functions.
    What the hell? If someone changes the loot rules to Master Loot ''on the spot'' then it's so fishy it would make me quit the guild instantly. And most Heroic guilds I saw run PL to begin with, or variants of group loot with DKP or something. Master Loot is the province of more serious raiding guilds. If a casual guild (doing Normal and maybe Heroic later) runs ML, you either really trust the loot council or run like hell.

    All the above of course ignores that a lot of loot councils don't even have the GM or sometimes officers in them, if they're properly managed.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    What the hell? If someone changes the loot rules to Master Loot ''on the spot'' then it's so fishy it would make me quit the guild instantly. And most Heroic guilds I saw run PL to begin with, or variants of group loot with DKP or something. Master Loot is the province of more serious raiding guilds. If a casual guild (doing Normal and maybe Heroic later) runs ML, you either really trust the loot council or run like hell.

    All the above of course ignores that a lot of loot councils don't even have the GM or sometimes officers in them, if they're properly managed.
    That doesn't stop people from lying to get people in their group in order to get more people in to effectively steal from them. That's issue, there are so many raiders that hop around from groups, that it's easy to prey on them. This is way it is so rampant and why it's growing so quickly with how easy it is to do with the group finder.

  13. #453
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Realitytrembles View Post
    Ideal situation:

    PL everywhere, no exceptions

    PL can never be traded

    only the winner of PL can shard it, and only if they have Enchanting

    Split runs are a perma ban offense.
    why dont you just play a fucking singleplayer game u cunt ?

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by TheEaterofSouls View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3nWMlxf4lI

    I've never disagreed more with a video. Why are high end raiders complaining their taking Master loot away? I thought high end raiders hated being forced to do split runs? Don't guilds like Method hate running 5+ characters through heroic every week? Wouldn't forcing personal loot make it easier for other guilds to compete with method? Why are people complaining about removing Master loot as an option? Aren't you tired of Method winning every single race? Don't you want more people to take up high end raiding?

    What's wrong with forcing it for a few weeks until a few guilds have killed the final boss on mythic? Or restricting heroic clears per account during the WF race and banning account sharing players?
    What are you even talking about?

    Firstly, getting rid of master loot won't fix split running, in fact it'll probably make it worse because they can still redistribute and coordinate loot so long as the people who get it have something of equal or higher ilvl equipped which would mean that guilds like Method who do anything and everything for an advantage will run more splits to ensure that all of their split toons are capable of trading drops to those they want the drops on.

    Secondly, master loot makes it a lot easier for coordinated guilds because it empowers them to distribute loot as needed. For example, it's not uncommon that a group will find out that having a certain class of some sort will give them a significant advantage on a boss fight (think aff lock on coven), that group can then take a member who is competent on aff lock with an undergeared alt and funnel them gear before they get to coven in order to make things easier on themselves. You might not understand it, but for groups that don't have a lot of people on the bench this typically happens at least once each raid tier after the first one (because most people don't have a load of alts leveled up during the first raid tier).

    Lastly, this will make coordinating loot in a group much, much, much more of a social strain. Right now with master loot, loot is distributed from on high by some means and someone who doesn't get the piece of loot had hopes, but couldn't reasonably claim "hey no, that's mine" because it was never theirs to begin with. Now think about trying to coordinate loot drops with personal loot and all of that social tension of being expected to trade a piece of loot you want from your bags to someone else. It's yours, but for the sake of the group you'll be expected to trade it over which is overall a much worse social experience than just letting leadership dole it out.

    The point is that this won't fix split running and will only make things worse for organized groups. I mean, if they want to make sure master loot can't be abused then make it so only guild groups can run master loot. The game already checks to see if your group is a guild group, so they could restrict master loot to guild groups which would make it so pugs and groups that aren't like 80% guild members can't abuse master loot.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Torrasque View Post
    That doesn't stop people from lying to get people in their group in order to get more people in to effectively steal from them. That's issue, there are so many raiders that hop around from groups, that it's easy to prey on them. This is way it is so rampant and why it's growing so quickly with how easy it is to do with the group finder.
    On the group... finder?

    You do know that Master Loot can only be used in guild groups, right?

    And you're an outright moron if you join a guild's run where they use ML and expect to be treated the same as guild members. Blizzard shouldn't babysit that kind of people, and the scenario is so incredibly specific that I really don't see how it's a good argument to bring more problems to all the people using ML legitimately.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by TheEaterofSouls View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3nWMlxf4lI

    I've never disagreed more with a video. Why are high end raiders complaining their taking Master loot away? I thought high end raiders hated being forced to do split runs? Don't guilds like Method hate running 5+ characters through heroic every week? Wouldn't forcing personal loot make it easier for other guilds to compete with method? Why are people complaining about removing Master loot as an option? Aren't you tired of Method winning every single race? Don't you want more people to take up high end raiding?

    What's wrong with forcing it for a few weeks until a few guilds have killed the final boss on mythic? Or restricting heroic clears per account during the WF race and banning account sharing players?
    Your first paragraph is wrong, your second paragraph would be fine if that's what they were doing, but it isn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  17. #457
    Deleted
    Don't you hate it when some weeb decides what loot you are supposed to have? I much prefer it being based on chance rather than some dictatorial structure.

  18. #458
    Some organised guilds will indeed prefer master loot. However I've seen many guilds using master loot whether it was EPGP or loot council and it was just corrupted AF. It's the reason I don't raid in a guild for some time now. I hate master loot with passion yet I understand some top guilds complain about forced personal loot.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Greathoudini View Post
    Blizz already stated they wanted ilvl>secondary stats
    They've said that, or something along those lines, numerous times. And very little actually comes of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Realitytrembles View Post
    Ideal situation:

    PL everywhere, no exceptions

    PL can never be traded

    only the winner of PL can shard it, and only if they have Enchanting

    Split runs are a perma ban offense.
    And by ideal, you mean terrible.

    Explain why / how split runs impact your gameplay in any way. Are you a world first-level raider?

  20. #460
    I never had an issue with Master Looter as I always knew the situation I was getting into when I signed up for a group with Master Looter. That said, I only ever joined groups with people I could trust, or at least rely on for being honorable and respecting the rules set out by the raid lead.

    As others have stated, Master Looter was a good way to not only help enforce raid/guild rules and such, but it was also an ideal way for guilds to more efficiently and optimally gear their raid team to be the most effective. Individual performance is not as important as group performance, and with ML a guild could directly affect group performance to better serve the raid.

    As far as the world first race, I couldn't care less, however I highly doubt this will even the playing field at all, but even if it did....making RNG a more integral part of the world first race rather than skill, dedication, good leadership and decision making makes it a worthless race IMO.

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