Master Looter

[KayRule]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3nWMlxf4lI

I've never disagreed more with a video. Why are high end raiders complaining their taking Master loot away? I thought high end raiders hated being forced to do split runs? Don't guilds like Method hate running 5+ characters through heroic every week? Wouldn't forcing personal loot make it easier for other guilds to compete with method? Why are people complaining about removing Master loot as an option? Aren't you tired of Method winning every single race? Don't you want more people to take up high end raiding?

What's wrong with forcing it for a few weeks until a few guilds have killed the final boss on mythic? Or restricting heroic clears per account during the WF race and banning account sharing players?

No more loot funneling. That's it. The only people upset it's gone are for that.

[Grevmak]

High end players see loot as a tool to defeat bosses. Being able to manually give BiS items to the corresponding classes was cool because it reduced one layer of RNG. Happened to me on a few occasions that I got some trinket that was ok for my spec but exceptionally good for another. I can trade it if my Ilvl is lower, yes, but that's not how Tiersets or Trinkets work right now.

With the ilvl>secondarystat changes this will probably change, especially since Tier sets are going away, but I'd still prefer having Master Loot just so I don't see people getting slightly annoyed by yet another guy getting that really good piece of gear that would be the biggest upgrade for him/her but is marginal for the person who recieved it.

This mentality is prolly why Blizz wants to change loot: To make it a reward instead of a tool.

[Deleted]

But tell me one thing... now we have PL and ML so we can CHOOSE, why we have to delete ML?

ML is the only system that helps raid leader maintain raid... otherwise people dosn't care, they are late, they slack and many more... I have feeling that most of the people who wanna delete ML is that people who just attend once a week on raid and they dont do a lot at fight but they just wanna ITEMS!!!!

By ML we can have EPGP or DKP so both loot systems which are good for guilds and for rules in raids. If u dont wanna play with guild with ML just create your own guild and you will see how its hard to make ppl care about raid, about mechanics and about preparation to it.

[Trickname]

For a start the guy isn't a high end raider, as he clearly states. I'm pretty sure he even mentioned a few times that he thinks splitruns are stupid (or something to the effect of)

He then he gives a 15 minute discussion/rant on why he doesn't like the idea.

His argument is broader than just this ML stuff, he is arguing against design choices being based on 1% of the player base because it's a bad precedent.
He also makes the point about how stupid it is to remove choice in an MMO.

It won't change anything in the 'race'. They will just do whatever they need to for world first. It will probably force them to make more characters and invest more time into the game than the current system. Norrowing the playing field even more.

[High Priestess Tyrande]

removing ML is a terrible idea, im ok with them promoting PL, but ML is essential to serious raiding guilds.

if you dont like ML , dont play in ML groups, simple as that.

[agittunc]

Then why are you even in a SPECULATION THREAD about Alpha when you want to go in blind?

maybe because people keep making posts that don't make sense? like you saying because they remove some RNG aspects that justifies removing master loot. when my point is how actual raiding guilds use it? which you completely ignored.

That's entirely the problem with it though, it is currently being used, en masse, by a large number of people to steal loot from others, and it's a growing issue among the community that has been growing in its petition for a while over the last two expansions. That said, people that have guild-orientated groups, generally, never encounter these issues because they have had the same group for long, extended periods of time. The issue with people attempting to join new groups or people starting out with raiding altogether which is massively growing population of the game with how much attention Blizzard is putting into making raiding more and more accessible.

i have been in many guilds not facing these issues. are you talking about your own experiences? because i haven't been in such a situation for 3 years now. so not up to me to say. and like i said its a guild thing.

That's exactly the problem with it, it being used as a tool to steal loot from large majorities of the playerbase. It's growing issue as well as an issue that directly opposes the Dev's desire to make raiding more available to people.

like i said, thats the players issue for not knowing anything before going in. because i haven't had this issue because i know what i will get myself into before going in. 80% off the playerbase that get "scammed" are from people not reading their rules. simple.

That's ignoring the facts, though, which I've mentioned already. Sticking your head in the dirt or plugging your ears to the changes that are already implemented in the alpha doesn't magically make you right.

how am i ignoring facts? i bring my opinion and you come with facts. and my logic is flawed he said. you honestly are hypocritical. when i say that it should be a STEPPING STONE for normal/heroic and not dictate progress is something you keep IGNORING. so i'll rest my case and not keep playing your game.

You obviously aren't listening or reading what I'm posting if you honestly think this... As I mentioned already, the vast magority of RNG is ALREADY GONE from the Alpha. Titanforging, gone. All tertiary procs, multiplied in reducing their effectiveness and increasing rarity not making them "viable" upgrades anymore. Set bonus and Tier, gone. Raid ilvl gear is going to be craftable. All secondary stats will be mostly useless compared to primary stats making same ilvl variations of gear nearly identical in value. And much MUCH more that negates RNG. Most to nearly all RNG is gone from BFA. This is why Master Looter will matter so little in regards to your point, as well as proof that you've been directly ignoring my points nearly entirely.

i don't think you learned blizzard's mistake on secondary stats when it always wasn't that important in the beginning of an expansion and it always turns out that it is needed. people will go through hell to get dps increases and here you are trying to justify rng to master loot. like i said you are hypocritical. when i bring my perspective and you try to bring up facts? do you even read before you are posting?

the removal of RNG aspects should not dictate how master loot should be removed or not. period. it's something completely diffrent and the aspects of RNG that you mentioned should never have been introduced anyway. masterloot has been a feature since vanilla. so stop comparing it.

Proof that you haven't read a word of my posts.

taking a piece of my post and saying that i don't read is stupid. im not gonna say more into that.

You honestly can't read can you, or do you simply choose not to? That isn't even stated anywhere in my posts...

no but you wanna bring up how much better personal loot is in comparison to master loot. and my opinion is that YES it is in a individual player's standpoint but not a guild's standpoint. saying that i cant read is again hypocritical if you cant read my context into a post.

you are honestly a hypocrite. i stand on my opinion. respect my opinion. don't just go around force your opinion into other people's throats.

and again. i am not trying to be a dick here. but the way you wanna go on a debate seriously is annoying. when you keep bringing shit up that has nothing to do with masterloot.

in case you were still ignoring shit and bring up points that blizzard don't give a shit about.

the reason they want to remove master loot is because of split runs. that is the primary goal. the rest are sub.
and the problem with this is. this particular thing is not solved by removing it. hence why it's stupid.

[Accendor]

Looking back, the world first guilds will not be remembered as being skilled but as a group of people with no life that could split raid all day. So this change must happen.

If this change would only affect world first kills this would be true, but it affects everyone so it must not happen.

[Gaaz]

Removing Master Loot is a shift towards RNG. And personally, I do not like the idea. It is not "the sky is falling" type of thing, since top end guilds will find a way around it (passing gear from secondary characters to main ones manually is still possible I assume, gear is not automatically soulbound). This change removes some minor loot abuse problems and introduces more RNG. Bad trade off IMO.

[JackWest]

Don't you hate it when some weeb decides what loot you are supposed to have? I much prefer it being based on chance rather than some dictatorial structure.

Please, do share your progress and gear in antorus with us. If i have to make an ‘educated guess’ i’d say you are the guy that tries to pug normal every week and then complains he gets declined by grps because he still doesnt have curve. So, smth along the lines of 2/11 hc and 940 ilvl?

[Accendor]

His whole argument can be destroyed by this simple statement - "You can trade items."

No, you can not and that is the whole problem. There are many restriction on the trading and titanforging (which is a great concept by itself) makes it even worse, because it forces you to keep bad gear (for you) in your inventory just because it has a higher itemlevel so you can trade away other pieces in the future.
If there was not itemlevel restriction for trading, this would not be a problem. But then again if there was no item level restriction there would be no reason to remove PM.

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Loot should be personal and untradable.

Go play a single player game please.

[agittunc]

No, you can not and that is the whole problem. There are many restriction on the trading and titanforging (which is a great concept by itself) makes it even worse, because it forces you to keep bad gear (for you) in your inventory just because it has a higher itemlevel so you can trade away other pieces in the future.
If there was not itemlevel restriction for trading, this would not be a problem. But then again if there was no item level restriction there would be no reason to remove PM.

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Go play a single player game please.

couldn't have said it better myself

[HuxNeva]

The issue is that this does nothing to actually stop split runs, it just means that the number of split runs needs to go up. Personal loot by it's very nature makes split runs FAR more important as it comes with the cost of gear drops being much higher variance. All the top guilds will run split runs until their raid team has the gear they want to have. Making it more difficult will only make it worse. The only way you can actively fight this is by making it not as beneficial, ie Mythic Nighthold gear is the same ilvl as Heroic Tomb. What this would do is make split runs only a thing for content on farm (which is universal) and the first week of the introductory raid.

Here's my two cents, I don't like PL because it simply makes getting loot boring. With the various loot systems based off master loot you likely spend some time thinking about what loot you want and what the needs of the other players in the party/raid are, with PL you just kill bosses and have a sim add on tell you if it's an upgrade or not, and you vendor/DE if you are an enchanter if it isn't. Even if you ignore the profoundly stupid RNG bullshit that is Legion's loot you still don't consider anything because PL has taken over everywhere but in serious guilds. You either get the loot or you don't, there is no role you or anyone else has in deciding that outside of bonus rolls. Plus it's undeniably more interesting to see loot when you kill a boss rather than it just appearing in your bag.

I agree with that. as long as loot is 'tradable' not much will change for the better, and even with untradable loot there might be initial 'clone' runs trying different 'copies' of characters to see which one has more loot 'luck'.

[JackWest]

For a start the guy isn't a high end raider, as he clearly states. I'm pretty sure he even mentioned a few times that he thinks splitruns are stupid (or something to the effect of)

He then he gives a 15 minute discussion/rant on why he doesn't like the idea.

His argument is broader than just this ML stuff, he is arguing against design choices being based on 1% of the player base because it's a bad precedent.
He also makes the point about how stupid it is to remove choice in an MMO.

It won't change anything in the 'race'. They will just do whatever they need to for world first. It will probably force them to make more characters and invest more time into the game than the current system. Norrowing the playing field even more.

Exactly. Josh from method(i think it was him) already said they have 2 ‘workarounds’ on the ml removal so they wiill keep doing split runs. Hence the change will have the opposite effect, as it will slow down the progression of non world first guilds by making rng dictate their gearing process

[Aggrophobic]

Loot should be personal and untradable.

Why do you even play a multiplayer game then?

[Lochton]

Mate, you might wish to reformat your text so most of it isn't 'bold' and 'underlined', makes it easier to read.

[Tems]

The only shit that this creates is that it makes 20 people distributing loot instead of 1 (or council), which is such a shitty change considering that it will cause more drama than you think.

As for split runs, just let ML be only in mythic??

[agittunc]

Mate, you might wish to reformat your text so most of it isn't 'bold' and 'underlined', makes it easier to read.

noted and changed!

[agittunc]

The only shit that this creates is that it makes 20 people distributing loot instead of 1 (or council), which is such a shitty change considering that it will cause more drama than you think.

As for split runs, just let ML be only in mythic??

i'd say only for guild runs.

[Deleted]

maybe make heroic loot untradeable for the 1st month? Trying to think of a solution to split runs. Ban guilds who do split runs with more than 3 characters? Banning guilds who do above a certain number of split runs from getting a WF kill as cheating?

It would make no sense to ban players or remove accomplishments for playing hardcore. It would be like banning a player for farming the insane reputation for 24 hours straight.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't like the fact that split runs exist are nowadays mandatory to compete in world firsts.

An artificial solution will be needed and the only solution is probably having the gear untradeable.

[Aggrophobic]

It eliminates nothing but choice. There is simply nothing positive about this for the players.
For Blizzard there might be as you'll have to spend more time doing the content if your guild happens to be unlucky and that might mean you'll be subbed for longer but the end result is a game that is less fun to play.