Suggestion: Master Loot for highest Mythic Raids, PL for everything else.

[Leenaleena]

Hello folks!

With the current debate regarding the expected removal of Master Loot raging far and wide, I was wondering what people think if we kept MasterLoot for Mythic only.

I believe, that those who desperately defend ML do so, because for actual progression a controlled distribution of loot is invaluable. Guilds who push for mythic kills early on (aka the race world-wide, region-wide and server-wide) rely heavily on the fact that with ML they can dump gear on dps first, thus greatly increasing their likehood of pushing for more kills/earlier kills of certain bosses (which is what matters to them!). Most of us who do raid in a progressive/semi-progressive environment generally accept that loot goes dps > tanks >= healers, because it makes the most sense for the group as a whole. As a healer main since forever, I may not like the fact that I'm always the last one to get items, but I understand that this is the way the entire group gets better/faster in the most effective way possible within the raid.

However, the fact that Blizzard pushes for PersonalLoot as the main loot distribution method suggests that number-wise, PL wins over ML by some margin. According to them, PL rewards more items in the long run, so more people get their characters equipped by x amount of weeks. Which in general, is perfectly fine for Heroic/Normal guilds and PUGs, where the actual speed of progression often takes a back-seat compared to the fun of playing together and clearing a raid eventually.

As for those who say that ML invites abuse by loot councils (and all those other loot systems that are devised by players), I say: People who abuse ML that way will find other/new ways to abuse PL just as quickly. It's not the system at fault in that case, but the people who run a faulty/abusive internal distribution based on personal preference and not utility for the raid. They are only interested in personal betterment and don't care about the group. (If you encounter these people, get as far away from them as possible.)

I know that there are tons of threads (and reddit posts and whatnot) on the general issue of ML vs PL already, but I'm trying to see if there is an alternative that does not include the complete removal of ML.

Ideas, issues, thoughts?

[Morgaith]

How about we leave it where it is seeing as the current loot system is a non-issue.

ML is only used in raid groups where the goal of the guild is to progress on bosses and therefore gear up the raid.

[Samin]

Has there been an actual official statement about removal of ML or is this still based on them saying that PL will be the default and the removal of tier sets might reduce need for ML (in other words, is this entirely based on lack of reading comprehension or did I miss some new development)

[Allenseiei]

I still don't see why there's this way of thinking of FORCING guilds to take a certain loot system. It doesn't matter if its normal, heroic or mythic guild, if the guild wants to use master loot as its loot policy then it has all the right to do so.

If a player does not like master loot, then he has no reason to join a guild with that policy and he/she should join a guild that uses personal loot.

[Brogan117]

I actually think that the removal of masterloot might make the mythicprogression at least interesting to watch again. Now it maybe wont the guilds that spend 24/7 of the first week splitfarming like robots. Maybe a underdog gets to have some first kills just by the luck of the loot. I personally find that to be way more exciting than having to bet on method or those scummy exorsus russians.
But in reality, we'll just have to wait and see, and to be honest with myself, I think those top 3 guilds will find another way to even abuse personalloot by some manner.

[Allenseiei]

Has there been an actual official statement about removal of ML or is this still based on them saying that PL will be the default and the removal of tier sets might reduce need for ML (in other words, is this entirely based on lack of reading comprehension or did I miss some new development)

There hasn't been exact confirmation on it, but Ion in the Q&A said its the desired system by the dev team and how with the removal of tier sets it will remove, in their opinion, disbalances in the raiding scene due to split runs.
This is in my opinion a hint on what they are planning to do and they probably want feedback from the community before fully going with it.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually think that the removal of masterloot might make the mythicprogression at least interesting to watch again. Now it maybe wont the guilds that spend 24/7 of the first week splitfarming like robots. Maybe a underdog gets to have some first kills just by the luck of the loot. I personally find that to be way more exciting than having to bet on method or those scummy exorsus russians.
But in reality, we'll just have to wait and see, and to be honest with myself, I think those top 3 guilds will find another way to even abuse personalloot by some manner.

Define "again", because split runs have been a thing since WotlK. The thing that slowed them down was the combined loot lockout between all difficulties. (meaning you had to choose each week which difficulty u wanted loot from).
There are other things that create unbalance much heavier than split runs and those are programming personalities inside guilds. People who can program very complex and easy to read auras have a huge advantage over guilds who dont have those individuals.
"Luck" on loot is not an engaging way either. I still remember top guilds poaching players from weaker ones in a much more common trend before split runs became a thing.

[Dug]

Has there been an actual official statement about removal of ML or is this still based on them saying that PL will be the default and the removal of tier sets might reduce need for ML (in other words, is this entirely based on lack of reading comprehension or did I miss some new development)

This is my question too. I've yet to see any definitive statements on the outcome of ML, just a whole lot of assuming.

[Stabatya]

I still don't see why there's this way of thinking of FORCING guilds to take a certain loot system. It doesn't matter if its normal, heroic or mythic guild, if the guild wants to use master loot as its loot policy then it has all the right to do so.

If a player does not like master loot, then he has no reason to join a guild with that policy and he/she should join a guild that uses personal loot.

Except there is no incentive for a guildmaster/raid leader to run personal loot. They (you, I’m assuming?) are quite happy funneling all the loot into his/her chosen raiders (officers, friends, ect). Make it all PL and remove the ilvl restrictions on trading, now your traditional ML/Loot council won’t be the default option. Yes, guildmasters/raid leaders will try and force people to trade over loot said person doesn’t want to, but only the most hardcore will enforce it. Most guilds will accept members aren’t willing to trade it if it’s an upgrade and move on with their life.

[Leenaleena]

Has there been an actual official statement about removal of ML or is this still based on them saying that PL will be the default and the removal of tier sets might reduce need for ML (in other words, is this entirely based on lack of reading comprehension or did I miss some new development)

It hasn't been confirmed yet, which is why I said "expected" removal. So far it has only been heavily implied in that recent QA though that might have been a ploy to see how the community reacts. In my opinion it's viable enough that suggestions and opinions are worth being thrown about

[Amengar2407]

this will in no way change anything on split raids...maybe even will make it worse. You can't funnel loot? ok everyone builds the same character 6-8x and than run 6-8x HC and than you raid with the char that had the most drop-luck. this isn't a step to create a better situation. Not in the least.

EDIT: And for everyone with the bold idea: loot lockout per battlenet Account: Just create 6-8 Accounts...no problem with that too.

[Stabatya]

EDIT: And for everyone with the bold idea: loot lockout per battlenet Account: Just create 6-8 Accounts...no problem with that too.

You think Blizzard will have a problem collecting 6-8x subscription fees for hardcores who take this route? Are you trying to give them ideas on how to make more money or?

[Amengar2407]

only less than 1% of all players are affected by this....do you think the trouble to install this system would in the least be lucrative for them? if they do something like that it never ever will be for the money -.-

I indeed doubt that only personal is designed to address Split Raids. it is to make the life of your average (80% + playerbase) way easier and the game seemingly more fair for them....thats where the money is

[Leenaleena]

this will in no way change anything on split raids...maybe even will make it worse. You can't funnel loot? ok everyone builds the same character 6-8x and than run 6-8x HC and than you raid with the char that had the most drop-luck. this isn't a step to create a better situation. Not in the least.

Those with sufficient motivation and time are always going to find ways to "abuse" the system. The top 100 guilds (-ish) are part of that group as well. My main issue is how loot distribution changes will affect the remaining guilds within the top500, maybe even top1000 (which I think is around the mark that people clear the raid in a regular timeframe before the next expansion hits). I already jokingly mentioned to my friends how we shouldn't bring hunters anymore in that case, since their mail gear and bows are going to be wasted in a PL environment (apart from the token resto shaman and the occasional enhancer). That is not the point of this though.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually think that the removal of masterloot might make the mythicprogression at least interesting to watch again. Now it maybe wont the guilds that spend 24/7 of the first week splitfarming like robots. Maybe a underdog gets to have some first kills just by the luck of the loot. I personally find that to be way more exciting than having to bet on method or those scummy exorsus russians.
But in reality, we'll just have to wait and see, and to be honest with myself, I think those top 3 guilds will find another way to even abuse personalloot by some manner.

I don't agree there. A race that depends on RNG and not on actual skill? That's like watching someone play the slots. It might just broaden the pool of competing guilds by sheer virtue of reducing the usefulness of split runs and pushing the best players. But a race based on lucky drops? Sounds a little 'meh' to me.

Of course the top dogs in Legion were those who not only had the skill, but also the time to grind leggos and AP and split run effectively.

[Stabatya]

only less than 1% of all players are affected by this....do you think the trouble to install this system would in the least be lucrative for them? if they do something like that it never ever will be for the money -.-

I indeed doubt that only personal is designed to address Split Raids. it is to make the life of your average (80% + playerbase) way easier and the game seemingly more fair for them....thats where the money is

I’m saying in a world where they introduce PL across the board. Do you really think they are going to complain if people run 6-8 concurrent subscriptions to overcome the restriction. No... No they will not. I don’t think they will implement it with the intention of making money. Pretty sure they will implement it partially to slow down progression, partly to stop loot disputes but mostely they are implementing it to make the game more casual friendly for new/returning players in BFA.

[Geckoo]

this will in no way change anything on split raids...maybe even will make it worse. You can't funnel loot? ok everyone builds the same character 6-8x and than run 6-8x HC and than you raid with the char that had the most drop-luck. this isn't a step to create a better situation. Not in the least.

EDIT: And for everyone with the bold idea: loot lockout per battlenet Account: Just create 6-8 Accounts...no problem with that too.

You can always find a way to keep doing them, but in the end no one really likes to do split runs, is just something that has proved to be so efficient that has become a must in order to be competitive at those levels. The change is not aiming to remove split runs, the change aims to make it less efficient, less worth the time spent on them, less worth the effort.

Forced personal loot, tier sets gone, mythic+ as a great source for gear... even if they can still find ways to make split runs, it won't be worth doing them.

[Amengar2407]

even this regards the top 2-3% of players and is in no way the base on which blizz decides such things. so they don't mind it is a problem for them when it is a solution for the rest. is there a better way? maybe for the Top but for all? the less they have influence in the loot-distribution the better. influence means yerks can misuse it and also a lot of ppl don't want the hasle of dealing with influence (meaning loot distribution). most ppl just want to play. and no they don't go here and tell us all about it. they are happy they maybe even have a party for it but mostly won't even know this forum or are even that informed to know that this change is coming

[Allenseiei]

Except there is no incentive for a guildmaster/raid leader to run personal loot. They (you, I’m assuming?) are quite happy funneling all the loot into his/her chosen raiders (officers, friends, ect). Make it all PL and remove the ilvl restrictions on trading, now your traditional ML/Loot council won’t be the default option. Yes, guildmasters/raid leaders will try and force people to trade over loot said person doesn’t want to, but only the most hardcore will enforce it. Most guilds will accept members aren’t willing to trade it if it’s an upgrade and move on with their life.

That only happens in third rate guilds. In decent guilds you don't do that because you lose your raiders. The era of TBC where everyone stayed through all the shit you do is long gone. There are guilds competing with yours will happily poach good members if you abuse your authority.

Removing Ilvl restrictions brings back the split raiding problem that blizzard wanted to avoid in the first place. In first rate guilds people will still trade the items, and that does create stress in relations regarding members and also officer-member relations. You will not fix anything, you will simply make it worse.

[Leenaleena]

even this regards the top 2-3% of players and is in no way the base on which blizz decides such things. so they don't mind it is a problem for them when it is a solution for the rest. is there a better way? maybe for the Top but for all? the less they have influence in the loot-distribution the better. influence means yerks can misuse it and also a lot of ppl don't want the hasle of dealing with influence (meaning loot distribution). most ppl just want to play. and no they don't go here and tell us all about it. they are happy they maybe even have a party for it but mostly won't even know this forum or are even that informed to know that this change is coming

Which is why I'm suggesting that we keep the ML system for those 2-3% who actually raid mythic. That was the entire point of this thread.

[Stabatya]

That only happens in third rate guilds. In decent guilds you don't do that because you lose your raiders. The era of TBC where everyone stayed through all the shit you do is long gone. There are guilds competing with yours will happily poach good members if you abuse your authority.

Removing Ilvl restrictions brings back the split raiding problem that blizzard wanted to avoid in the first place. In first rate guilds people will still trade the items, and that does create stress in relations regarding members and also officer-member relations. You will not fix anything, you will simply make it worse.

- - - Updated - - -



We in our guild (Right, KR server) have already made a way around it. Basically it's two things:

1. Azerite gear will ALWAYS be tradeable since it can't titanforge, so people will have the same ilvl in those pieces.
2. You asign slot by slot ilvl quota on alts. Meaning that all alts have to have a certain ilvl piece on each slot so trading becomes available. We have already run a vote through our members and they approved of this system.
3. Mythic + will always be an easy way to gain gear an all alts.

This punishment is mostly on normal mythic guilds that want to freely redistribute gear, like it has been happening for 14 years.

Well there ya go, you’ve already got a solution in place and your guild members are obviously happy with the change. Soooo you have no problems if PL does become the only loot option.

I’m certain the large majority of “normal” mythic guilds won’t care if this is implemented (well... the guildmasters and raid leaders might for obvious reasons). Once it becomes a reality (it probably won’t end up happening, let’s be real), it’ll be accepted and people will move on with their lives.

[Leenaleena]

This punishment is mostly on normal mythic guilds that want to freely redistribute gear like it has been happening for 14 years.

And these are precisely the guilds I am concerned about (since that's where I am and want to be in BfA).