Suggestion: Master Loot for highest Mythic Raids, PL for everything else.

[Allenseiei]

Well there ya go, you’ve already got a solution in place and your guild members are obviously happy with the change. Soooo you have no problems if PL does become the only loot option.

I’m certain the large majority of “normal” mythic guilds won’t care if this is implemented (well... the guildmasters and raid leaders might for obvious reasons). Once it becomes a reality (it probably won’t end up happening, let’s be real), it’ll be accepted and people will move on with their lives.

Or will they? Peronsal Loot will create the same issues as the legendary system. Lucky ppl will be resented instead of congratulated. Specially in more normal mythic guilds.
The problems we forsee is that it increases tension in the guild since there are more requirements. We might see an increase volatility in our roster due to those requirements.

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And these are precisely the guilds I am concerned about (since that's where I am and want to be in BfA).

Exactly. This change basically means:

1. top 0.01% guilds will find a workaround.
2. Normal mythic guilds will be forced into the legion legendary scenario, where RNG will favor certain people while the rest fall behind and can't do anything about it. This results in increased tensions in the guild, more member volatility emanating from frustration, etc.

[Stabatya]

Or will they? Peronsal Loot will create the same issues as the legendary system. Lucky ppl will be resented instead of congratulated. Specially in more normal mythic guilds.

Jealousy will always exist. Jealous because someone got lucky with PL vs jealous because someone got awarded a BIS trinket cause they have been in the guild longer. In one scenario the game is blamed, nothing can be done. In the other scenario a guild/player is blamed and a loot dispute ensues.

[Amengar2407]

Or will they? Peronsal Loot will create the same issues as the legendary system. Lucky ppl will be resented instead of congratulated. Specially in more normal mythic guilds.
The problems we forsee is that it increases tension in the guild since there are more requirements. We might see an increase volatility in our roster due to those requirements.

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Exactly. This change basically means:

1. top 0.01% guilds will find a workaround.
2. Normal mythic guilds will be forced into the legion legendary scenario, where RNG will favor certain people while the rest fall behind and can't do anything about it. This results in increased tensions in the guild, more member volatility emanating from frustration, etc.

and even those guilds are so small in numbers they don't care. its about the majority

[Leenaleena]

and even those guilds are so small in numbers they don't care. its about the majority

And again, the majority will have their "better" PL only system. The normal mythic guilds get to keep their ML.

[Coldfrostzero]

only less than 1% of all players are affected by this....do you think the trouble to install this system would in the least be lucrative for them? if they do something like that it never ever will be for the money -.-

I indeed doubt that only personal is designed to address Split Raids. it is to make the life of your average (80% + playerbase) way easier and the game seemingly more fair for them....thats where the money is

They have already restricted to personal in non-guild raids. I have not seen anyone asking for this sort of change. It is a choice. Your guild decides to master loot or it uses personal loot. We don't need to force guilds into never having a choice of rewarding people. Attendance across the board for guilds is already suffering and keeping a full roster of people is growing harder and harder every expansion. It isn't about "oh I can be replaced by our 5th priest on the roster because I'm not performing" anymore. It is "they have no choice since they can't raid without me" instead. Those days are long gone, and unless their is a sudden resurgence in subscriptions or guild minded raiders, this just gives more incentive to pug raid.

Don't get me wrong, as someone with multiple geared alts (last expansion I was able to switch out 4 different characters for mythic), I love the personal lockouts for normal/heroic in pugs, but I think this is a step too far. This may push more people into pug raiding instead of being in a guild since there is no incentive in being in a guild. Pug raiding can be great, most of the time it is a disaster of people who shouldn't be raiding past LFR because that is how they treat it, wasting everyone's time.

[Ophenia]

How about we leave it where it is seeing as the current loot system is a non-issue.

100% this.

I've never seen someone complaining about this.

[Leenaleena]

Jealousy will always exist. Jealous because someone got lucky with PL vs jealous because someone got awarded a BIS trinket cause they have been in the guild longer. In one scenario the game is blamed, nothing can be done. In the other scenario a guild/player is blamed and a loot dispute ensues.

In the PL scenario, the game is blamed. It's the game design that creates unhappiness, and it's a game design that we did not chose, but was forced upon us.

In the 2nd (ML) scenario, the guild/player is blamed. It's the guild mentality of rewarding someone for personal reasons that is ineffective for the group as a whole. Staying in a guild like that is a choice. Personal example: This sort of ineffective loot distribution is one of the reasons I'm leaving my current guild after the Argus kill. Personal choice, right there.

[Allenseiei]

Jealousy will always exist. Jealous because someone got lucky with PL vs jealous because someone got awarded a BIS trinket cause they have been in the guild longer. In one scenario the game is blamed, nothing can be done. In the other scenario a guild/player is blamed and a loot dispute ensues.

Except the first one you can work towards that position. Many guilds use the ML system in a very simple way:

1. Are you raider/member (active player in the raiding team)? Then they run with ilvl and if the item is bis or not for that person. For example: trinket drops, they give it to the least ilvl player in terms of trinkets and if its BiS. If its not bis, but it is for someone else, the one who's bis gets it.

2. Are you a new player and you are still in the trial period? Then you will only recieve items that the active players dont want untill you stay long enough and prove commitment to the guild. This is done primarily to avoid people jumping from guild to guild getting the items they want and leaving.

In your example, the game is not the only thing blamed. The player is resented too, even if it was the system that gave him the item.
With ML, if people understand the logic of the redistribution, no one blames anyone. Loot system was explained, you decided to join the guild, then you abided their terms and accepted them. If you don't like it, you either don't join or leave. The resentment is there, but its temporarily since members get loot regularly. In an RNG world, there could be people not getting anything, while others getting their bis.
There is choice in the current system, but there is none in personal loot. You are forced to abide completely by RNG. It's the so much hated legendary system all over again.

Forced PL loot only favours the new player in a guild.

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and even those guilds are so small in numbers they don't care. its about the majority

You can choose personal loot today. The mayority PUG, and PUG's go personal loot. There's no problem to be fixed for the majority.
Now if you are talking about the majority of guilds, then that's the guild's choice and the person's choice to join it.
Who are you to force the way you want players to create their own communities?
If you dont like ML, dont join a guild who has ML loot policy.

[Stabatya]

In the PL scenario, the game is blamed. It's the game design that creates unhappiness, and it's a game design that we did not chose, but was forced upon us.

In the 2nd (ML) scenario, the guild/player is blamed. It's the guild mentality of rewarding someone for personal reasons that is ineffective for the group as a whole. Staying in a guild like that is a choice. Personal example: This sort of ineffective loot distribution is one of the reasons I'm leaving my current guild after the Argus kill. Personal choice, right there.

Your definition of choice is misguided. Currently if you want to raid mythic content you will be part of a guild that uses master loot and loot council. I’ve never encountered a guild that uses PL for mythic content, now you can argue that’s because it’s inefficient but as I said I’d wager it’s more likely due to guild masters/raid leaders want control over who gets what.

As I said earlier, if you want to give players a choice, put PL as the default. Guilds can enforce trading items between members if they want to. NOW the player has a real choice, stay in said guild and trade away loot at the guilds request or leave and join a guild that doesn’t enforce that. Take the choice away from people who can skew a decision of loot one way or another and put it in the players hands.

[Leenaleena]

Your definition of choice is misguided. Currently if you want to raid mythic content you will be part of a guild that uses master loot and loot council. I’ve never encountered a guild that uses PL for mythic content, now you can argue that’s because it’s inefficient but as I said I’d wager it’s more likely due to guild masters/raid leaders want control over who gets what.

As I said earlier, if you want to give players a choice, put PL as the default. Guilds can enforce trading items between members if they want to. NOW the player has a real choice, stay in said guild and trade away loot at the guilds request or leave and join a guild that doesn’t enforce that. Take the choice away from people who can skew a decision of loot one way or another and put it in the players hands.

(PL scenario) What happens if a player agrees that they do not need the item they just got, and there are suddenly four other people in the group who want it? Who makes the choice: The player? The raid-lead? A group of voters? Do all of these people know where the item is the most efficient, do they all keep track of another person's BIS-items, stat weights and currently equipped gear?

Every boss, this scenario, times...4 or 5? Does every boss kill then require a fixed 20 minutes discussion afterwards regarding the loot? Can every one of those 20 people trust the remaining 19 people to always have the group's best at heart?

What about the player who does not put quite as much effort into gearing themselves via M+ beforehand, since they'll get shiny loot in the raid anway and won't be able to trade it since their own items are worse? (Personal experience: I have been very obstinate on gearing via M+ in Legion at times. While that was 'meh' behavior, I simply had to live with the fact that I did not get priority loot in the raid anyway. As long as I could keep people alive, it did not negatively affect my guild. In a PL scenario, the gear I'd get via PL could have been more effectively distributed if I wasn't such a slacker.)
What about the player who helps out once and won't be able to trade items because the gear is not on the same level as the rest of the raid's?
What about the guild-hopping trial?

Yes, PL might offer more personal choices for every player/item, but it also opens a can of worms in the same breath, which is not what I, as a 'normal' mythic raider, want.

[Unholyground]

they should put in anti failure mechanics that are not bonus rolls though, something that builds up and gives you a guaranteed loot drop off whatever boss you want that you can only do once per lockout.

[Stabatya]

(PL scenario) What happens if a player agrees that they do not need the item they just got, and there are suddenly four other people in the group who want it? Who makes the choice: The player? The raid-lead? A group of voters? Do all of these people know where the item is the most efficient, do they all keep track of another person's BIS-items, stat weights and currently equipped gear?

Every boss, this scenario, times...4 or 5? Does every boss kill then require a fixed 20 minutes discussion afterwards regarding the loot? Can every one of those 20 people trust the remaining 19 people to always have the group's best at heart?

What about the player who does not put quite as much effort into gearing themselves via M+ beforehand, since they'll get shiny loot in the raid anway and won't be able to trade it since their own items are worse? (Personal experience: I have been very obstinate on gearing via M+ in Legion at times. While that was 'meh' behavior, I simply had to live with the fact that I did not get priority loot in the raid anyway. As long as I could keep people alive, it did not negatively affect my guild. In a PL scenario, the gear I'd get via PL could have been more effectively distributed if I wasn't such a slacker.)
What about the player who helps out once and won't be able to trade items because the gear is not on the same level as the rest of the raid's?
What about the guild-hopping trial?

Yes, PL might offer more personal choices for every player/item, but it also opens a can of worms in the same breath, which is not what I, as a 'normal' mythic raider, want.

If your guild is choosing to enforce loot trading then they can also enforce their own set of rules surrounding that (who chooses who gets the loot and so on). These same problems exist with ML and loot council, they are just masked by addons, addons that will no doubt be modified with work with PL (hell there is already addons that announce what loot you received to your party/raid and if it’s an upgrade for you and/or is tradeable). To be clear, I’m not arguing PL will be easier for guilds that want to enforce their own loot distribution rules, quite the opposite. It WILL make it harder and that’s the point, the majority of guilds will see the amout of effort required and abandon the idea.

Now you are free to do with the loot you earned as you please. Got something better and want to trade? Go ahead. Got something you don’t really want? Trade away. Got all the MS loot from a particular boss? No problem, switch loot specs and get a chance at loot for your OS.

Note: As I said previous, they should remove the ilvl restrictions on loot trading IF this change goes through.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

How about we leave it where it is seeing as the current loot system is a non-issue.

Agreed. Maybe let people who like ML use it, and people who like PL use it....

[Leenaleena]

If your guild is choosing to enforce loot trading then they can also enforce their own set of rules surrounding that (who chooses who gets the loot and so on). These same problems exist with ML and loot council, they are just masked by addons, addons that will no doubt be modified with work with PL (hell there is already addons that announce what loot you received to your party/raid and if it’s an upgrade for you and/or is tradeable). To be clear, I’m not arguing PL will be easier for guilds that want to enforce their own loot distribution rules, quite the opposite. It WILL make it harder and that’s the point, the majority of guilds will see the amout of effort required and abandon the idea.

Now you are free to do with the loot you earned as you please. Got something better and want to trade? Go ahead. Got something you don’t really want? Trade away. Got all the MS loot from a particular boss? No problem, switch loot specs and get a chance at loot for your OS.

Note: As I said previous, they should remove the ilvl restrictions on loot trading IF this change goes through.

But the majority of those mythic guilds used ML item distribution to advance their group at a quicker pace than what they would have via randomized PL distribution. And for the progression race it is precisely that pace that matters to people. And the same questions still apply: Who gets the item if more than one person wants it? Who makes the choice then? The amount of time needed to discuss the loot will be wasted.

No matter the loot rules, trials will be a risk.

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Agreed. Maybe let people who like ML use it, and people who like PL use it....

That is the current system. Which is not what this thread is about.

[Stabatya]

But the majority of those mythic guilds used ML item distribution to advance their group at a quicker pace than what they would have via randomized PL distribution. And for the progression race it is precisely that pace that matters to people. And the same questions still apply: Who gets the item if more than one person wants it? Who makes the choice then? The amount of time needed to discuss the loot will be wasted.

No matter the loot rules, trials will be a risk.

Distributing loot with the intention of speeding up progress is a bleeding edge game, this is the minority of the minority of players. The rest of the “normal” mythic guilds use it as an excuse to hand out loot to people they deem more deserving. This is inherently unfair to new/returning players or those just dipping their toes into raiding. It’s been mentioned that the raiding scene is dwindling, A lot of that is due in part to the high point of entry. Imagine your new to the raiding game, you spend many nights learning to kill a boss, finally you down it. Your raid leader then decides your not worthy of loot, you haven’t been around long enough, you haven’t “earned your stripes” as it were. No matter how you spin it, that’s going to turn players off, not only from raiding but from the game as a whole. As a business this is something blizzard should avoid, even if it means sacrificing the convenience of the 0.01%.

As I said earlier, in a world where PL is the only option (assuming ilvl restrictions are removed), if a guild decides to enforce trading then they are more than capable of enforcing rules to support this. Now if a player then decides they don’t like being asked to trade away their loot, they are free to leave and join a guild that doesn’t enforce it. That is choice in the hands of the player. The only risk trials will face is refusing to trade away loot and thus being kicked from the guild... I’m sure they wouldn’t have joined if they were told they would be forced to trade loot to begin with. Again, this is choice, in the hands of the player.

[Leenaleena]

Distributing loot with the intention of speeding up progress is a bleeding edge game, this is the minority of the minority of players. The rest of the “normal” mythic guilds use it as an excuse to hand out loot to people they deem more deserving. This is inherently unfair to new/returning players or those just dipping their toes into raiding. It’s been mentioned that the raiding scene is dwindling, A lot of that is due in part to the high point of entry. Imagine your new to the raiding game, you spend many nights learning to kill a boss, finally you down it. Your raid leader then decides your not worthy of loot, you haven’t been around long enough, you haven’t “earned your stripes” as it were. No matter how you spin it, that’s going to turn players off, not only from raiding but from the game as a whole. As a business this is something blizzard should avoid, even if it means sacrificing the convenience of the 0.01%.

As I said earlier, in a world where PL is the only option (assuming ilvl restrictions are removed), if a guild decides to enforce trading then they are more than capable of enforcing rules to support this. Now if a player then decides they don’t like being asked to trade away their loot, they are free to leave and join a guild that doesn’t enforce it. That is choice in the hands of the player. The only risk trials will face is refusing to trade away loot and thus being kicked from the guild... I’m sure they wouldn’t have joined if they were told they would be forced to trade loot to begin with. Again, this is choice, in the hands of the player.

I've been in "normal" mythic guilds the past two expansions, and apart from 1-2 weeks of trial time where trials don't get loot unless it's trash for anyone in the main roster, I have not seen that kind of blatant abuse of ML. For one thing it's not a single person deciding, it's a council (or should be) and second, 'worthiness' is not based on amount of time you have spent with the guild (apart from trial time) but on the usefulness of you getting that item. If you are new to the raiding game, you won't be raiding mythic, you'll be first stepping into LFR, then normal, then heroic and then you might start getting into mythic. By then you would have had to make that choice to understand how mythic is different from the other modes beyond numbers/mechanics and should simply not have the kind of mindset that goes "I just spent nights to kill this boss, I deserve an item!" like a child wanting a due reward for something well done. Being able to progress and maybe get a juicy new server/region/world rank is reward enough in most cases.

I'm sure there are going to be many, many trials who "agree" to abide to the guild's loot rules and once they get their loot they disappear. Being forced into PL makes that sort of ninja looting actually happen again, this time within the once organized and fair raiding environment.

[Stabatya]

I've been in "normal" mythic guilds the past two expansions, and apart from 1-2 weeks of trial time where trials don't get loot unless it's trash for anyone in the main roster, I have not seen that kind of blatant abuse of ML. For one thing it's not a single person deciding, it's a council (or should be) and second, 'worthiness' is not based on amount of time you have spent with the guild (apart from trial time) but on the usefulness of you getting that item. If you are new to the raiding game, you won't be raiding mythic, you'll be first stepping into LFR, then normal, then heroic and then you might start getting into mythic. By then you would have had to make that choice to understand how mythic is different from the other modes beyond numbers/mechanics and should simply not have the kind of mindset that goes "I just spent nights to kill this boss, I deserve an item!" like a child wanting a due reward for something well done. Being able to progress and maybe get a juicy new server/region/world rank is reward enough in most cases.

I'm sure there are going to be many, many trials who "agree" to abide to the guild's loot rules and once they get their loot they disappear. Being forced into PL makes that sort of ninja looting actually happen again, this time within the once organized and fair raiding environment.

In every other aspect of the game you are rewarded based on effort put in by the game. Only in a ML/Loot council scenario is this not the case. Imo if you killed a boss, you deserve a shot at loot, period. It shouldn’t be gated behind the decision of another player, period. But, we will have to agree to disagree in this case as it really doesn’t effect me very much either way.

Anticipating that Blizzard will come out in a few days and announce this was all one big misunderstanding I want to clear up a few things...

-I do NOT actually believe Blizzard will remove ML.
-I have raided at a “high” level since vanilla (bleeding edge during vanilla and TBC, “normal mythic” level since).
-I’ve never not been awarded my fair share of loot.
-I have seen other players denied loot for the stupidest of reasons.
-I’ve seen great, long standing players leave due to loot disputes.
-I’m an old man, my playstyle these days is rush max level, raid “normal mythic” level for the first two tiers or so then take a break from the game to focus on IRL. This change will not effect my playstyle either way.

[Shadowsgrace]

If I recall hearing correctly, one of the subtle reasons they want to purge Master Loot is because of the "Mythic Raiders" The ability to funnel loot to specific people to gear them up shortens the life span of the Mythic progression, or something like that. For instance, by testing the next raid on the PTR, if a high end guild realizes they can cheese a mechanic if they had 4 rogues all with a few specific Items (This is a Hypothetical Situation to just make a point) then all they have to do is funnel to them those pieces and there go that mechanic.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Ya, would make a lot more sense if Personal Loot was forced in Heroic and below only. I have a feeling that is what might end up happening.

[Emerald Archer]

Except there is no incentive for a guildmaster/raid leader to run personal loot. They (you, I’m assuming?) are quite happy funneling all the loot into his/her chosen raiders (officers, friends, ect)

Eesh lets remove the bias there mate, and focus on the actual majority.

Funnelling the loot into the best raiders/best roles/best specs/whoever getting it ends up benefiting the raid the most as a whole. Favouring guild progression over personal greed.