Master Looter

[Delmore]

The last time I high end raided was Sunwell in full progression. I will tell you this, if RNG played out the way it does today in Personal, it would be disheartening. Trial members getting loot related to the effort put in would make me sad. What you have to remember about high end raiding is this: Gear = Value = Play time. People with better gear "generally", esepcially as DPS or heals, should come close in numbers. Every piece of gear is a part of your ability to play at that level. When pushing "new" content, every single piece of gear matters, as a wipe or a kill could be on a razors edge. It matters to people, it cant just be brushed off even though this has 0% effect on me as a player.

[IceMan1763]

Why get rid of the ability to trade BoP items? This game is a team game, not an individual game. I don't want just my gearing to get better, I want my team's gearing to get better. Look outside of raids to M+. You've got 5 people and 3 pieces of gear drop. If the person that randomly gets given a piece of gear won't use that item, what benefit comes from not allowing that person to give the gear away?

And the system of "if I run this enough times, I'll have everything" sounds super boring. It turns the raid into a gear treadmill, even more so than it already is. I don't need every DPS trinket in the raid, I just need the two that are best for me. What harm is there in letting me get those two and giving the others to other players?

Your system sounds like a loot system designed for a single player game, not a team game.

The harm is that trading accelerates the rate of gearing far too much and makes tuning more difficult. Gear is the means to the end, not the end, so any changes that create a better system which leads to better raid tuning is an improvement and any change should be on the table. There's absolutely ZERO reason for ML and loot trading to stay. The game is still a team game because you need 20 people to clear the hardest content working together. Now that team just won't have to worry about distributing loot and the obvious pitfalls that have come along with the system they have in place now.

Legion was the epitome of super fucking boring and increasing RNG (along with boring max level progression systems) made the game much worse in that way, not better. I find it hilarious that you think smoothing out the RNG curve would make the game boring. We should take out bad luck protection just for you on quests (that's been in place in WOW for about 10 years now, by the way) and you can tell us how much less boring and fun it is for you when you get an unlucky streak and it takes you twice as long to complete a silly quest as anyone else. The notion that some smoothing of RNG suddenly makes the game too boring for you is an incredibly weak argument, buddy.

[lummiuster]

If they intend to remove ML, they should remove the trading requirement for it to not be an upgrade. But if they do that, split runs will continue to be a thing, we'll just see groups doing 20 druid clears, 20 pally clears, etc.

No it wont happen. Very bad prediction man. Keep thinking the world collapses every time something you don't approve happens.

[IceMan1763]

The average player couldn't care less about WF races and they never did. The only people concerned with it are the guilds themselves or sad desperate nerds living vicariously through people a thousand times better than them at a video game.

FWIW I don't get why Blizz is trying this again after the backlash it got the first time. Split runs affect such a small sect of an already small portion of the raiding scene that there's no point in forcing loot systems on people. I don't care about ML/PL personally but it's a dumb idea to be like "this is how it works and that's it"

That's so wrong, split running does affect how they tune the raids. It affects far more than the 1% you pathetic white knight fanbois like to claim.

[Kazuchika]

That's so wrong, split running does affect how they tune the raids. It affects far more than the 1% you pathetic white knight fanbois like to claim.

At what point was I white knighting anything? Try reading at higher than a third grade level before shitposting bud.

[PraisCthulhu]

Why maintain a system only used by the 1% that is unnecessary and allows split raiding to be far more lucrative than it should be, something the lead developer has already stated he would like to see end? Do the 1% guilds NEED ML to clear Mythic raids? If the answer is No, which it clearly is, than I think you have just lost the argument honestly. ML is NOT necessary AT ALL and the game will probably worse off when they remove it, but only because they need an overhaul of how they handle gear and loot distribution and removing ML is actually not going far enough.

It really depends on what they do. If they just leave personal loot as it currently is and take away master loot, the game will be worse. Taking away master loot only works in a world where ilvl is almost always an upgrade. I'm not even strictly in favor of master loot, but the way personal loot works now sucks for organized groups who run together consistently. If they're going to take away the system that does work for organized groups, then they need to improve personal loot.

First, you should be able to trade an item if you've got the same item equipped already, no matter the ilvl (or maybe up to 10 ilvl lower). There should be no ilvl cap on trading jewelry or trinkets, because some rings and trinkets just straight are not good for some classes and specs (necks too, but that won't be an issue in BfA). You should also be able to trade *any* piece of gear if it is 10 ilvl or less higher than what you're currently wearing. Blizzard themselves have said they are okay with 5-10 ilvl not being an upgrade depending on stats, so if the piece drops for me and is only 5-10 ilvl higher than what I'm wearing, let me give it to someone else if it isn't an upgrade for me.

There are *other* ways they could address this split clear problem. They could only allow 2-3 Mythic lockouts per account until world first (or for the first month or whatever).

I understand that split runs are a problem they want to address, but personal loot is garbage for regularly running groups and punishing all of them because 1% abuse it is a crappy solution.

[lummiuster]

Exactly. My guild isn't even a high end guild, we just like to clear the content we're going to clear quickly. I have personally passed on upgrades I was "due" according to our loot rules so that someone who would benefit from it more could have it.

Maybe it is not how Blizzard wants it to be? Maybe they want geared people to have as many loot as undergeared people? Maybe they don't agree with the fact the when a raid comes out, everyone has a list of BIS they will get and everyone gets their BIS under 3weeks.
Since they plan on nerfing secondary stats to make item level the decision factor when equipping a loot, they want everyone to know they will get rewarded before running a raid.
Since item level will matter the most and we won't get our BIS specific to a build, we will see people playing different builds within the same spec because their stats optimize different talents and so we have diversity within specs.

Forced personal loot is better.

[Sencha]

I raid because I enjoy killing bosses. I care more about the group's overall DPS than my overall DPS, because the group's DPS is more relevant to our ability to down bosses. If a piece of gear is a very minor upgrade for me and is a major upgrade for my friend, I'd rather it go to my friend.

I understand your point. But in the end it just means that the overall dps of the raid will increase at a slightly slower pace on a weekly basis due to the removal of loot trading. But every guild will be affected in the same way. So if you're into guild racing it's a non-issue. And if you're not, it just means you will maybe need one more week to kill that boss if the issue if the lack of dps.

[PraisCthulhu]

If they intend to remove ML, they should remove the trading requirement for it to not be an upgrade. But if they do that, split runs will continue to be a thing, we'll just see groups doing 20 druid clears, 20 pally clears, etc.

Not in mass you won't. Guilds will still want to gear their mages, rogues, shaman, warlocks, etc. You're not going to see a rash of guilds suddenly comprised of only classes that can tank, heal, and DPS, which, by the way, is Druid, Pally, and Monk. Your "etc" was literally 1 more class, but you were trying to make the potential problem sound way worse than it is.

[Deleted]

Don't you want more new WF guilds? Aren't you tired of Method and Exorsus being the only ones? And guilds dropping left and right?

What even is this counterargument? Who gives a damn about policing the fucking Mythic race. Top guilds are the top for a reason, and it's not split runs. Skilled players who seek to trial for world first raiding end up in Method and Exorsus for different reasons than split runs.

Additionally, the video is more of a complaint about Blizzard policing the loot distribution as they have many other experiences just because they dislike a 0.01% of people 'exploiting' a mechanic fundamental to the game (trade).

[Rendark]

Your reason to keep it is "we" like to use it (actually it seems more than half of this forum are ready for it to be gone, so "we" is a small group apparently) and no one is making other people use it? The people not using it are affected by the existence of it though in a lot more ways than a short sighted fanboi like you could ever admit. It DOES affect me. It AFFECTS the WHOLE game.

So, once again, I have seen ZERO LOGICAL arguments for keeping ML. Great job arguing your side buddy. Bye ML forever yay

You haven't said how master loot affects you. My point is a lot of people like it and it doesn't hurt the game to have it. If you think it does maybe say why rather then just put smiley faces at the end of your "victory speech".

[Vorkreist]

Don't you want more new WF guilds? Aren't you tired of Method and Exorsus being the only ones? And guilds dropping left and right?

You think thats the reason Method and Exorsus wins? Rofl, I miss the shit talking in the wf progress thread now

[PraisCthulhu]

Maybe it is not how Blizzard wants it to be? Maybe they want geared people to have as many loot as undergeared people? Maybe they don't agree with the fact the when a raid comes out, everyone has a list of BIS they will get and everyone gets their BIS under 3weeks.
Since they plan on nerfing secondary stats to make item level the decision factor when equipping a loot, they want everyone to know they will get rewarded before running a raid.
Since item level will matter the most and we won't get our BIS specific to a build, we will see people playing different builds within the same spec because their stats optimize different talents and so we have diversity within specs.

Forced personal loot is better.

If I outgear an instance, I don't *want* as much gear as the people who are undergeared. Giving more gear I don't need does not make the game more fun. Giving gear to my guildy who needs it *is* fun.

They said the same thing about secondary stats going into Legion and for several patches in Legion, but they never actually fixed the problem, so pardon me for being skeptical of their claim that suddenly ilvl will *always* be an upgrade.

Forcing personal loot and making ilvl mean more still won't change the fact that there will be BiS pieces. Because, at its core, DPS is based on equations with gear being a variable, there will *always* be a variable that gives you the highest result when you plug it in, that is just how it works.

All that said, I'm actually fine with only personal loot so long as they also address personal loot's short comings. As of now, it is a pretty weak system if you're in a group that plays together consistently week to week. They can improve it for organized groups while still maintaining how it currently works for Pugs. Maybe instead of 80% guild groups getting access to master loot, 80% (or higher) guild groups can get access to a version of personal loot with more relaxed rules for trading gear (instead of having to be lower ilvl, maybe up to 10 ilvl higher becomes tradable, maybe make all rings and trinkets tradable since they are far less dependent on ilvl).

[IceMan1763]

What even is this counterargument? Who gives a damn about policing the fucking Mythic race. Top guilds are the top for a reason, and it's not split runs. Skilled players who seek to trial for world first raiding end up in Method and Exorsus for different reasons than split runs.

Additionally, the video is more of a complaint about Blizzard policing the loot distribution as they have many other experiences just because they dislike a 0.01% of people 'exploiting' a mechanic fundamental to the game (trade).

The argument is this:

1) Split raiding and the time requirements to do so to be in a top guild are completely ridiculous. If you don't believe me, Ion agrees and he's a moron so if you disagree I'm not sure what that makes you: "Using multiple raid groups to funnel loot to a set of mains [is] a competitive advantage of the high end, it’s not fun for people who do it,"
2) Split runs require time most people don't have, that's the main requirement to be in Method or Exorsus. Taking away the competitive advantage the lead designer literally just stated in my quote above will lead to a more healthy competitive landscape. If Method and Exorsus will continue to do well, but removing the advantage of a practice most people simply don't have time for will absolutely help to even the playing field. Unless you're a Method or Exorsus raider is afraid of a more healthy competition, I don't know why you would possibly complain about the removal of split runs as a practice.
3) Nothing is a "fundamental mechanic". If it is, how did the game survive for what, 4 or 5 years BEFORE TRADING EXISTED? Trading wasn't in the game once and, if there is good reason, it can be removed again.

[Accendor]

Id rather have the current system than see loot go to sharding. Pretty much every trinket that titanfroges and isnt bis for that player will be sharded. and thats gonna suck balls.

I agree on that because I also do not want the current system to change.

[PraisCthulhu]

I understand your point. But in the end it just means that the overall dps of the raid will increase at a slightly slower pace on a weekly basis due to the removal of loot trading. But every guild will be affected in the same way. So if you're into guild racing it's a non-issue. And if you're not, it just means you will maybe need one more week to kill that boss if the issue if the lack of dps.

I'm not into guild racing, but slowing down progression is not fun. I don't care that every guild is equally effected. The issue is that the overwhelming majority of groups that used master loot did not in any way, shape, or form abuse it but used it to play the game in a way that was fun for the members of the group. Now all those groups are being punished because Blizzard wants to fix a problem that only exists for like world top 20 guilds.

[IceMan1763]

They can improve it for organized groups while still maintaining how it currently works for Pugs. Maybe instead of 80% guild groups getting access to master loot, 80% (or higher) guild groups can get access to a version of personal loot with more relaxed rules for trading gear (instead of having to be lower ilvl, maybe up to 10 ilvl higher becomes tradable, maybe make all rings and trinkets tradable since they are far less dependent on ilvl).

Personal loot definitely needs improvements if they get rid of ML, but you are going the completely wrong direction. They shouldn't come up with a more complex, complicated, and "relaxed" rules PL system. They should simplify. ZERO TRADING OF BOP items then just tune around the fact that people will gear up a little more slowly. Simple is better and trading of BOP items IS NOT NECESSARY. It didn't even exist in the game for years, in fact, and the game grew like crazy in those years.

[Accendor]

Here, a list of reasons when you can't trade, some guy got answer from blue.



Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...nt_trade_your/

In no way it says "Lower or equal" but instead, it says an actual upgrade, which does make sense and as you can see in the same discussion, some people can trade, some people can't which obviously aims to be it a bug if you can't.



Why removal of loot trading? It's even more fair. You got an item, fine. You don't want it? You decide what happens with it.

equal was wrong on my part but for everything was I stated was exactly eas you quoted.

- - - Updated - - -

Personal loot definitely needs improvements if they get rid of ML, but you are going the completely wrong direction. They shouldn't come up with a more complex, complicated, and "relaxed" rules PL system. They should simplify. ZERO TRADING OF BOP items then just tune around the fact that people will gear up a little more slowly. Simple is better and trading of BOP items IS NOT NECESSARY. It didn't even exist in the game for years, in fact, and the game grew like crazy in those years.

thats like the completely worst solution to a non existing problem I ever heard of.

[PraisCthulhu]

The harm is that trading accelerates the rate of gearing far too much and makes tuning more difficult. Gear is the means to the end, not the end, so any changes that create a better system which leads to better raid tuning is an improvement and any change should be on the table. There's absolutely ZERO reason for ML and loot trading to stay. The game is still a team game because you need 20 people to clear the hardest content working together. Now that team just won't have to worry about distributing loot and the obvious pitfalls that have come along with the system they have in place now.

Part of playing a team game is being able to help your team mates. Helping team mates is fun. Removing my ability to help my team mates makes the game less fun. There is a legitimate argument to be made for getting rid of master loot, but there is 0 argument for what you're suggesting (getting rid of trading gear altogether).

Legion was the epitome of super fucking boring and increasing RNG (along with boring max level progression systems) made the game much worse in that way, not better. I find it hilarious that you think smoothing out the RNG curve would make the game boring. We should take out bad luck protection just for you on quests (that's been in place in WOW for about 10 years now, by the way) and you can tell us how much less boring and fun it is for you when you get an unlucky streak and it takes you twice as long to complete a silly quest as anyone else. The notion that some smoothing of RNG suddenly makes the game too boring for you is an incredibly weak argument, buddy.

What if I told you it isn't all or nothing? There is a fun amount of RNG. Too much RNG becomes frustrating and too little makes the game boring and predictable. Using your quests as an example, this is exactly why we have quests to collect drops that aren't a 100% drop from the mobs. Having an element of randomenss makes the game fun. Legion had too much randomness. But there is a happy middle ground between the amount of RNG Legion has and what you've suggested, guaranteeing everyone gets every piece of loot from a raid if they run it for X lockouts.

[Deleted]

The argument is this:

1) Split raiding and the time requirements to do so to be in a top guild are completely ridiculous. If you don't believe me, Ion agrees and he's a moron so if you disagree I'm not sure what that makes you: "Using multiple raid groups to funnel loot to a set of mains [is] a competitive advantage of the high end, it’s not fun for people who do it,"
2) Split runs require time most people don't have, that's the main requirement to be in Method or Exorsus. Taking away the competitive advantage the lead designer literally just stated in my quote above will lead to a more healthy competitive landscape. If Method and Exorsus will continue to do well, but removing the advantage of a practice most people simply don't have time for will absolutely help to even the playing field. Unless you're a Method or Exorsus raider is afraid of a more healthy competition, I don't know why you would possibly complain about the removal of split runs as a practice.
3) Nothing is a "fundamental mechanic". If it is, how did the game survive for what, 4 or 5 years BEFORE TRADING EXISTED? Trading wasn't in the game once and, if there is good reason, it can be removed again.

1) If that's what is required to remain ahead of others in a competitive landscape, fucking let them be miserable. Why be so hellbend on policing others? Also, if Blizzard actually cared about fun we wouldn't have Titanforging and Legiondaries among other things.
2) Then that's too bad for the people who don't have the time, you shouldn't be playing competitively if you're not willing to do everything you can to make it.
3) There was always a method to trade in some form, be it the AH or BoEs. Without it player interaction couldn't have evolved beyond just communication. And no, split runs aren't a good reason to eliminate trade.