Master Looter

[IceMan1763]

Or just let the players do what they want? It's literally not an issue. Signed, ex-top 3 world raider.

Something you took advantage of wasn't an issue for you? Shocker man.

It's literally an issue:

"Using multiple raid groups to funnel loot to a set of mains [is] a competitive advantage of the high end, it's not fun for people who do it"
- Ion

Signed, ex top 100 world raider on a 12 hour per week schedule, something impossible in today's WOW

[tclphz]

Or just let the players do what they want? It's literally not an issue. Signed, ex-top 3 world raider.

This is what I find strange about this whole thing. Why not just give people the option and let them decide? Why force everyone into some system? I like personal loot over master loot in pugs, there was an actually issue there.

But if the goal of this is to stop split raids... Let the world first raiders kill themselves doing split runs. That's their choice. Give guilds the choice in how they want to run their loot system.

[Pull My Finger]

It's simple. These people always think they need to be terribly pissed off about something, because they're little kids that believe they always need to cry in order to remember everyone that they're important.

[IceMan1763]

This is what I find strange about this whole thing. Why not just give people the option and let them decide? Why force everyone into some system? I like personal loot over master loot in pugs, there was an actually issue there.

But if the goal of this is to stop split raids... Let the world first raiders kill themselves doing split runs. That's their choice. Give guilds the choice in how they want to run their loot system.

The devs clearly tuned Mythic raiding around the behavior of WF guilds, affecting anyone who would even LIKE to participate. Ion has said split raiding is a competitive advantage he would like to see end years ago. You can't allow behavior that forces devs to account for it, affecting a whole swath of people, then come here and incredulously wonder why they would remove the choice which is causing the problem. Unless you honestly believe the devs don't tune with split running in mind, in which case you are being willfully blind or just don't participate in that level of raiding at all so you simply don't understand how it works.

[Deleted]

Anyone who thinks this is going to stop split raiding is retarded. The only way that'll happen is if they do this and remove the option to trade gear, which would be fucking awful.

[Acidbaron]

A lot of guild systems are tied to rewarding attendance and good plays with the loot system. Taking that away for unorganized or less organized guilds does not seem like an overall good move.

It is already hard to motivate people to do mythic raids, combine this with M+ loot, raid sets going away. One would suspect they might be unintentionally killing it off. Once that happens though, say good bye to all big class contributors.

[salate]

I still remember one moment from my gruul raiding experience, when one guy literally cried over a t5 token cuz he had no DKP to buy it...
Or the moment when I raided Ulduar 25 and Rogue outbid Avalanche-like bow (Dont remember tbh its name, dropped from Auraya or Kologarn), saying "nothing personal" and never used it (I'm a hunter tho). I used stupid weapon from KT 219 lvl for until... I got the bow from Lady Deathwshiper.


Master Loot is really sux for casuals like me. Let it be.

[babyback]

The devs clearly tuned Mythic raiding around the behavior of WF guilds, affecting anyone who would even LIKE to participate. Ion has said split raiding is a competitive advantage he would like to see end years ago. You can't allow behavior that forces devs to account for it, affecting a whole swath of people, then come here and incredulously wonder why they would remove the choice which is causing the problem. Unless you honestly believe the devs don't tune with split running in mind, in which case you are being willfully blind or just don't participate in that level of raiding at all so you simply don't understand how it works.

I couldn’t care less about the guilds that are aiming for WF are doing several split runs. The issue is that many of the lower tier mythic guilds are requiring it. You don’t need to do split runs to raid mythic. But many think it’s a requirement because those above them do it.

[Xenodrake]

Method is like the only guild that requires 5+ characters per player. Banning that kind of behavior seems reasonable. Anything to make the playing field more fair. Maybe we'd see more new blood.

The issue with split raiding isnt how fast a raid is cleared, it's how unfair it is to new potential WF raiders.

This sounds like a guy who applied to Method but got denied to me.

[Preston Garvey]

What if I do? Wanna fite? Meet me near the bike rack after class.

Bro look u would not make it 5 min with my fast fist blows!!!

[Teri]

I felt bad for another mage in my Vanilla guild as he had to wait like months to complete his 8/8 tier 2 after me, not because of master loot, but due to RNG on drops.

Mind you, this was on a live server, so you couldn't just go to AQ or Naxx cause they didn't exist yet.

I am not saying that personal loot would have been better, but Master loot by far was the best method by then , based on trust. (and DKP)

Things like loot-chests were even more based on trust since they couldn't be master looted. (Majordomo)

[Usernameforforums]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3nWMlxf4lI

I've never disagreed more with a video. Why are high end raiders complaining their taking Master loot away? I thought high end raiders hated being forced to do split runs? Don't guilds like Method hate running 5+ characters through heroic every week? Wouldn't forcing personal loot make it easier for other guilds to compete with method? Why are people complaining about removing Master loot as an option? Aren't you tired of Method winning every single race? Don't you want more people to take up high end raiding?

What's wrong with forcing it for a few weeks until a few guilds have killed the final boss on mythic? Or restricting heroic clears per account during the WF race and banning account sharing players?

I don’t hate it but I don’t like it. It does make things easier. You can do multiple runs now and stacks classes and hand gear over to your main class raider. High end raiders are already doing this so it doesn’t change anything really. No more tier sets makes this change make sense too.

[darkwarrior42]

depends how you look at it.

you see it this ways others see it as come back to the very core of social interactions where those interactions arent focused around means to an end (gear) only around actual goal (killing bosses clearing raid)

removing loot drama and loot from equation will make this happen.

I think that's an overly optimistic interpretation.... if they were getting rid of gear entirely, I would agree, but they're not. You still need the means to achieve your end, the only difference is now the system is entirely responsible for determining whether or not you obtain said means.

Long ago, my wife and I healed together. This was during WotLK, when she was a resto druid and I was a holy pally, and we were the healers for our 10-man raid team. We wanted very different trinkets, so if a trinket dropped, there was no question of who would get it. Under Personal Loot, all the healer trinkets are "viable", so if a higher ilvl trinket drops for me, it's mine. I can't give it to her, even if I don't want it for myself, because it's an "upgrade."

Before I quit playing in Legion, I had numerous cases of someone in our group wanting to trade an item, but being unable to do so because of PL restrictions. (Blizzard says they're going to try to make sure higher ilvl is always an upgrade; I don't give them any benefit of the doubt, so I don't assume they'll succeed, but even if they do, trinkets will still vary wildly because they always do... unless they gut trinkets and make them boring.)

Taking away master loot is an explicit statement that we are not supposed to help our guildmates anymore. No, forming a team with them to clear the content doesn't count, because that's not sufficient; we need to not only clear the content, we also need to get the rewards from said content in order to be strong enough to move on. When system tells me I have to keep an item instead of giving it to a guildmate who could make better use of it, I don't care even slightly what people too immature and stupid to handle loot without drama would do; what I care about is the fact that the game is no longer allowing me to help my guildmate. The guild works together, but when rewards are passed out we're stuck with what we get.

The core of social interaction in a guild is the social interaction. I'll do that on discord, or on a guild website, or wherever else we hang out. The core of the game interaction is us helping each other out to make our team as a whole stronger. If I'm playing a prot pally and I tank a mythic+ or an old raid for a plate dps guildee to help them gear up, I don't want the game giving me a drop that RNGs up to be a +5ilvl upgrade for me, and then telling me I have to keep it for myself because it's an upgrade. I want to give that item to my guildmate, even if it's better for me than what I"m currently wearing, because that's why I'm there. No argument, no rationale about me looking out for myself, no bullshit about making me stronger also helping the guild.... I came to help my guildmate, not myself. When the game tells me that's not allowed, the game is explicitly telling me I cannot help my guildmate.

Nobody likes loot drama, and I don't like split runs, but if the price of solving those problems is killing my ability to pass on upgrades because they're better for a friend.... no. I have an annoying callus on my foot, but I'm not going to cut off my damn foot to get rid of it. Though, this is a very Blizzard solution; find a problem, take a sledgehammer to it, and hope what's left is still salvageable enough to work with...

[tclphz]

The devs clearly tuned Mythic raiding around the behavior of WF guilds, affecting anyone who would even LIKE to participate. Ion has said split raiding is a competitive advantage he would like to see end years ago. You can't allow behavior that forces devs to account for it, affecting a whole swath of people, then come here and incredulously wonder why they would remove the choice which is causing the problem. Unless you honestly believe the devs don't tune with split running in mind, in which case you are being willfully blind or just don't participate in that level of raiding at all so you simply don't understand how it works.

I don't care that they tune with split raiding in mind. If the difficulty of the raid is the issue with split raids, then are you asking for easier bosses or faster clears? I have never raided at a top 100 level, but have raided with guilds full clearing mythic. I've never heard anyone complain about split raids as ruining the experience of other raiders. Perhaps your experience is different than mine.

If you want the devs to stop tuning towards WF guilds, then ask the devs to stop tuning towards WF guilds. You complain about devs accounting for WF guilds and affecting a whole swath of people, and yet you're supportive of devs accounting for WF guilds by removing ML and affecting a whole swath of guilds.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Sure you can't trade ilvl upgrades, but that's its own issue; if I have two ilvl 300 trinkets and I get a ilvl 310 trinket that's absolute crap for me but absolute BiS for a guildie, now I can't trade this important power boost to them so everyone's unhappy. Same with stuff like rings or the all-important weapon drops where pure ilvl doesn't rule the day sometimes.

And corrupted loot councils will stay corrupted and do shenanigans with the loot they can get their hands on. At best you lessen the problem a bit while creating many more problems elsewhere, as well as leaving players even more at the mercy of the RNG. The solution is to avoid bad loot councils and master looters, not make it unavailable altogether to those who use ML responsibly.

To be clear I was 100% in favor of Blizzard removing ML from pugs with the guild-only restriction. That made sense. This? It's bullcrap that helps close to nobody and will cause grief to many others.

Blizzard (Ion) said they were going to fix the ilevel issue by making an ilevel upgrade an upgrade no matter what. That should fix the issue. The only exception and where I agree with you is with rings.

I don't see how you can fix ML from abusive guild leaders. I just genuinely don't see it.

[Unholyground]

Q. Why Do High End Players Hate Forced Personal Loot?
A. Because Jesus died for your sins!

[Stockers]

I don't see how you can fix ML from abusive guild leaders. I just genuinely don't see it.

People are not forced to stay in a guild... there are MANY MANY guilds out there to find all sorts of raid times an environments, from late night guilds that raid at 2am, to furry only guilds, and you know what, there's even guilds out there that use PL! Amazing eh?

If the GM is abusing the loot system, just fucking leave the guild, if you're thinking it, there's likely others are too. They are obviously being a dick, so just get the fuck out. It's not hard.

There ya go. Fixed.

[Cannibalus]

Why maintain a system only used by the 1% that is unnecessary and allows split raiding to be far more lucrative than it should be, something the lead developer has already stated he would like to see end? Do the 1% guilds NEED ML to clear Mythic raids? If the answer is No, which it clearly is, than I think you have just lost the argument honestly. ML is NOT necessary AT ALL and the game will probably worse off when they remove it, but only because they need an overhaul of how they handle gear and loot distribution and removing ML is actually not going far enough.

Personal loot will start a dangerous trend of perpetual guild hoppers. They will sit in a guild, get some loot, leave or get kicked because they failed the trial, join other guild and rinse/repeat. In the end it will hurt the guild's progression and favor this type of irresponsible guild hopping that has no downside, as you get to kill bosses and get loot like everyone else. Moreover it will start another trend based on randomly getting the mount from the last boss on mythic. Normally it's rollable between raiders or the GM takes the 1st one and after that the officers then raiders etc. This way with PL the chance increases that trials or mischievous raiders get the mount and leave the guild or quit wow for awhile cause hey! they just finished the content, bitches!

The more you know the more you understand why GuildML is neccesary. If you're a casual and like to skip raids and not give a shit and assume that it is the way that you kill bosses, sure, your opinion is valid. And thus, WoW will start to die due to toxic cunts ruling the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Q. Why Do High End Players Hate Forced Personal Loot?
A. Because Jesus died for your sins!

Let me guess, u took a sniff of paint thinner just before Bible Class?

[Jastall]

Blizzard (Ion) said they were going to fix the ilevel issue by making an ilevel upgrade an upgrade no matter what. That should fix the issue. The only exception and where I agree with you is with rings.

I don't see how you can fix ML from abusive guild leaders. I just genuinely don't see it.

Blizzard said that time and again and it's always going to be bullshit. Stats are too important to be just tossed by the wayside and always make ilvl a straight upgrade (plus that would be boring as hell anyway, no more optimal builds or decision making, just slap on the biggest numbers). Ilvl is also not going to help too much for things like trinkets, Azerite armor pieces which are tier 2.0, and weapons if you can equip different combinations (IE as a Fury warrior if I get a higher ilvl one-hander it's useless until I get a second one) on top of jewelry. It is no fix at all if you scratch the surface of the argument and only creates more problem for more people.

You fix abusive guild leaders by not joining their guilds, and these issues mostly fix themselves because guilds that just distribute the loot to the GM and officers are going to see much of their roster be under-geared, will have a harder time progressing and naturally lose more players than they gain, which is a very bad thing in Mythic especially. Also as I said, shit loot councils will stay shit.

Also, players are hardly infallible, and I've seen more than one person treat ''I didn't get this item I wanted immediately even though this guildie needs it more'' as ''OMG abusive loot council!!''.

[OokOok]

" Ban guilds who do split runs with more than 3 characters? Banning guilds who do above a certain number of split runs from getting a WF kill as cheating?" LOL oh man, wow is turning into Nazi germany. Banned for wanting to play a game you pay for a certain way.

Hey TheEaterOfSouls, by your divine logic you're basically saying it's okay also if the government put you in jail for your overweight ass eating an entire pizza in one day because they feel you should only eat 2 slices at once.