Grom buffed in Warcraft Chronicles 3

[Syegfryed]

2. Where did it say their muscles literally grew? And even if it did, they wouldn't bother changing the models JUST for that, just look at the Mag'Har in TBC WAAAAAY before WoD or chronicles came out.

a retcon dur

[Deleted]

a retcon dur

.......No.

The Mag'har in TBC came out before WoD and Chronicles. They use the exact same model as any other Orc, but are 100% uncorrupted.

Also the wowpedia page you listed as being retconned has been updated AFTER WoD and Chronicles 2.

[Qualia]

and like i said it was retconned with WoD and so on, the blood just make then bound to the Legion, didn't gave then more strength and power that they already had, think it is in chronicles 2 they talked about.

2. Where did it say their muscles literally grew? And even if it did, they wouldn't bother changing the models JUST for that, just look at the Mag'Har in TBC WAAAAAY before WoD or chronicles came out.

Chronicle 2 stated that the blood granted them power and made their body grew, together with triggering bloodfury state:

"Always one to show his fearlessness, the Warsong chieftain drank deep of Mannoroth's blood. A hush fell over the orcs at what happened next. Grommash grew taller, and his muscle bulged as power flooded his veins. A hellish red glow blazed bright in his eyes. With a mighty war cry, the Warsong chieftain howled for the blood of the draenei. The other orcs in attendance would not be denied this power. Nearly all clamored to drink and experience the rush of might that Grommash had.
<...>
The orcs who drank Mannoroth's blood reveled in power as their bodies twisted and swelled with might.
"

[Deleted]

Chronicle 2 stated that the blood granted them power and made their body grew, together with triggering bloodfury state:

"Always one to show his fearlessness, the Warsong chieftain drank deep of Mannoroth's blood. A hush fell over the orcs at what happened next. Grommash grew taller, and his muscle bulged as power flooded his veins. A hellish red glow blazed bright in his eyes. With a mighty war cry, the Warsong chieftain howled for the blood of the draenei. The other orcs in attendance would not be denied this power. Nearly all clamored to drink and experience the rush of might that Grommash had.
<...>
The orcs who drank Mannoroth's blood reveled in power as their bodies twisted and swelled with might.
"

Read the bold

[Qualia]

Read the bold

I don't disagree with you. I was just giving you two the proof from a more recent canonical source to settle the discussion of whether demonic blood granted the Orcs power / might and made them more muscular - it does. For one, I don't see them being ripped in WoD as an argument that demonic blood doesn't do what it did (as stated in Chronicle 2) - they could have been muscular at first place, then grow even more.

[Syegfryed]

.......No.

The Mag'har in TBC came out before WoD and Chronicles. They use the exact same model as any other Orc, but are 100% uncorrupted.

yes, and whats your point? the maghar are even bigger than thee green ones, its impossible for the blood give then MORE size, y When they are smaller than the uncorruped ones

it was in TBC too that we learned that blood fury was not a demon blood thing, but a natural ability from the orcs

Also the wowpedia page you listed as being retconned has been updated AFTER WoD and Chronicles 2.

and?

- - - Updated - - -

Chronicle 2 stated that the blood granted them power and made their body grew, together with triggering bloodfury state:

"Always one to show his fearlessness, the Warsong chieftain drank deep of Mannoroth's blood. A hush fell over the orcs at what happened next. Grommash grew taller, and his muscle bulged as power flooded his veins. A hellish red glow blazed bright in his eyes. With a mighty war cry, the Warsong chieftain howled for the blood of the draenei. The other orcs in attendance would not be denied this power. Nearly all clamored to drink and experience the rush of might that Grommash had.
<...>
The orcs who drank Mannoroth's blood reveled in power as their bodies twisted and swelled with might.
"

yet, this effect was due to the bloodfury active, basically the blood triggered the power they already had, not give then more, still is down from the original source,like Grom in WoD without the blood is big as Garrosh

besides not all orcs drank it, and even the ones who didn't were matched with the ones who did it , the exemple is Garrosh being taller/bigger than normal orcs

[OIS]

2. Where did it say their muscles literally grew? And even if it did, they wouldn't bother changing the models JUST for that, just look at the Mag'Har in TBC WAAAAAY before WoD or chronicles came out.

In Rise of the Horde, orcs that drank Mannoroth's blood got gains, so much that their armor couldn't contain them and were dented from the inside.

[Qualia]

yet, this effect was due to the bloodfury active, basically the blood triggered the power they already had, not give then more, still is down from the original source,like Grom in WoD without the blood is big as Garrosh

besides not all orcs drank it, and even the ones who didn't were matched with the ones who did it , the exemple is Garrosh being taller/bigger than normal orcs

And how did you know that was just bloodfury's effect instead of the blood just granting them even more extra power? You said it has been retconned, but in this thread, you haven't been able to provide any canonical source stated that demon blood didn't grant the orcs more power, just put them in an permanent blood-frenzy state instead - with all the effect except being bounded to the Legion's will came from Blood Frenzy. I could have missed it, but if I'm not wrong, all you have to support your argument is characters' model, which is pretty flimsy at best. At this rate, it wouldn't matter what we link that stated that the Orc gained power after drinking demon blood (short of something literally spell out "that effect didn't come from blood frenzy") - for example, but not limited to: "Gul'dan and his warlocks has previously empowered their kin with fel energies, but this process only granted them limited strength. Drinking blood of a demon was a far superior method that would give the orcs otherworldly power", you will just claim it's blood frenzy and not from demon's blood, ignoring that those canonical statements said that the blood granted them those mights, not activated what they already had.

Just think about this: demon's blood grant anyone who ingested them more power and rage, including the ones without a blood frenzy racial - i.e: the draenei or Illidan ("The smell of it made Illidan lick his lips. The tang set his tongue to tingling. Strength flowed into him. The demon’s blood was like a drug"), why should the Orcs be an exception?

[DemonHunter18]

well, we all know that Night Elves suck now days, Cenarius (not really a Night Elf but you know...) sucks as well.

[Syegfryed]

And how did you know that was just bloodfury's effect instead of the blood just granting them even more extra power?

because bloodfury do increase your power, is a natural bloodlust

You said it has been retconned, but in this thread, you haven't been able to provide any canonical source stated that demon blood didn't grant the orcs more power, just put them in an permanent blood-frenzy state instead - with all the effect except being bounded to the Legion's will came from Blood Frenzy.

The canonical source are WoD and chronicles 2

chronicles 2 stated that the demon blood bound then to the will of kil'jaden and put then in a blood-fenzy, nothing more

WoD show that the uncorrupted orcs are the same, in terms of power strength and size, so the blood didn't gave then more power strength and stamina like we though before, if did it, chronicles would said that

I could have missed it, but if I'm not wrong, all you have to support your argument is characters' model, which is pretty flimsy at best.

not model, but canon size, just think, how the demon blood would increase the green orcs size and musucular features, when the maghar orcs in lore are bigger than the green ones? like garrosh?

Just think about this: demon's blood grant anyone who ingested them more power and rage, including the ones without a blood frenzy racial - i.e: the draenei or Illidan ("The smell of it made Illidan lick his lips. The tang set his tongue to tingling. Strength flowed into him. The demon’s blood was like a drug"), why should the Orcs be an exception?

the thing is: there area lot inconsistency, so i prefer to stay with the chronicles description, "bound in the kil'jaden's will and in a state of blood-frenzy "

[KrakHed]

not model, but canon size, just think, how the demon blood would increase the green orcs size and musucular features, when the maghar orcs in lore are bigger than the green ones? like garrosh?

I don't understand your argument here. Garrosh is Garrosh. Not all Mag'har are Garrosh. Also, the Orcish blood curse kind of weakened over time, even before Grom broke it. That's why they were passive enough to be used as slaves. They lost the extra mass the demon blood originally gave them.

Fel Orcs are still described as larger than normal Orcs.

[Eazy]

Firstly: You can kill Cenarius in the mission in the WC 3 Campaign with Grom alone, as soon as he was on Demon Blood again.

Secoundly: Orcs are physically incredibly strong. On top of that the Demon Blood and on top of that Grom is wielding Gorehowl, which is no ordinary orcish axe. Grom's Grandfather channeled the power and strength of six LEGENDARY Gronns into Gorehowl. Thats the reason why Grom can break the defense of even a powerful Demon Lord like Mannoroth even in WoD without the Demon Blood. And Cenarius is much less tanky compared to Mannoroth. Thats the reason why Garrosh was able to shatter Cairne's powerful Runespear with Gorehowl. Getting hit or trying to block Gorehowl is super bad idea, unless you can counter the power of these six legendary Gronns it holds. Which is not an easy task for anyone except super powerful beings.

Thirdly: Unless someone here wants to argue that six legendary powerful Gronn don't have the power to clubber Cenarius into a pulp and as long as Grom has Gorehowl and is able to make contact with Cenarius body in a meaningful attack, Cenarius is superbly screwed facing Grom Hellscream. And Grom himself is not a no one, without Demon Blood too, he is a powerful Orcish Blademaster, not a Peon. He might be a lot of bad things, but he is still a legendary orcish warrior.

Many of people were pardoning me ans saying that he isn't actually a BM, but he was just BM because of the Wc3 game. I was wondering - any sources of Grom being Blade master?

[Syegfryed]

I don't understand your argument here. Garrosh is Garrosh. Not all Mag'har are Garrosh.

i just use Garrosh a exmple, there are more, lik Dranosh,, and other orcs npcs

Also, the Orcish blood curse kind of weakened over time, even before Grom broke it. That's why they were passive enough to be used as slaves. They lost the extra mass the demon blood originally gave them.

the curse broke it but there is no source saying they shrunk down evem more before that

Fel Orcs are still described as larger than normal Orcs.

yeah, demons, would be bigger regardless

- - - Updated - - -

Many of people were pardoning me ans saying that he isn't actually a BM, but he was just BM because of the Wc3 game. I was wondering - any sources of Grom being Blade master?

Micky neilson said he didn't considered Grom an actually blademaster, it was jut a game thing

https://twitter.com/MickyNeilson/sta...33805866385409

[Qualia]

because bloodfury do increase your power, is a natural bloodlust

That doesn't mean consuming demon blood wouldn't increase your power even further, they aren't mutually exclusive. To make it simple - think of it like this: bloodfury gives the orc +10 to power, demon blood gives them +20, so consuming demon blood - which gives them both power and put them in a permanent bloodfury state gives them +30.

The canonical source are WoD and chronicles 2

chronicles 2 stated that the demon blood bound then to the will of kil'jaden and put then in a blood-fenzy, nothing more

WoD show that the uncorrupted orcs are the same, in terms of power strength and size, so the blood didn't gave then more power strength and stamina like we though before, if did it, chronicles would said that

Except Chronicle 2 never said "nothing more". It said consuming blood bound them to the Legion's will ("This last act cursed them and shackled their wills to the Legion"). It means exactly what it said: consuming the blood bound them to the Legion, not that consuming the blood bound them to the Legion *ONLY*. In fact, in your argument, they wouldn't even be in a blood frenzy state as it wasn't mentioned here either. As it was described in various other sources (Chronicle, in-game book, and novels) that consuming blood does grant them extra, supernatural / otherworldly power (would power come from a triggered racial state considered "otherworldly"?), the effect gives them both.

Think of a similar example, if you read something that said "Eating food from good chefs allows you to savor the great taste", are you going to argue that "Oh, so eating food from good chefs doesn't give you any nutrient as it wasn't mentioned there"?

(And again, I'd like a quote, not "hey Chronicle 2 said this and that". Everyone can remember what Chronicle said from their perspective, I want the exact wordings - I'm sure I can't find the exact line of "bound in the kil'jaden's will and in a state of blood-frenzy" in Chronicle 2, for example, which section / page did it come from?).

not model, but canon size, just think, how the demon blood would increase the green orcs size and musucular features, when the maghar orcs in lore are bigger than the green ones? like garrosh?

The current green orc already lost their demon's blood effect, so I'm not sure how you could compare current Mag'har with WC2 Orcs in anything other than in-game model at best. And what if Garrosh (or Grom, or any named Orcs for that matter) was an exceptionally big and muscular Orc? It's not like it was said that consuming demon's blood turn the Orcs into giant or increase their sizes two-fold or anything - for example, if we are using the visual portrayal of characters instead of text, Gul'dan in Harbingers grew in size after taking Fel in compared to his decimated self before, but he was still smaller than many other Orcs portrayed in that same short story.

[Syegfryed]

That doesn't mean consuming demon blood wouldn't increase your power even further, they aren't mutually exclusive. To make it simple - think of it like this: bloodfury gives the orc +10 to power, demon blood gives them +20, so consuming demon blood - which gives them both power and put them in a permanent bloodfury state gives them +30.

but again, we don't have this confirmation, just speculation, we only have a confirmation of then grwoing in strenght and power i when Grom drink it a second time

(And again, I'd like a quote, not "hey Chronicle 2 said this and that". Everyone can remember what Chronicle said from their perspective, I want the exact wordings - I'm sure I can't find the exact line of "bound in the kil'jaden's will and in a state of blood-frenzy" in Chronicle 2, for example, which section / page did it come from?).

it is on the wiki

The current green orc already lost their demon's blood effect, so I'm not sure how you could compare current Mag'har with WC2 Orcs in anything other than in-game model at best. And what if Garrosh (or Grom, or any named Orcs for that matter) was an exceptionally big and muscular Orc? It's not like it was said that consuming demon's blood turn the Orcs into giant or increase their sizes two-fold or anything - for example, if we are using the visual portrayal of characters instead of text, Gul'dan in Harbingers grew in size after taking Fel in compared to his decimated self before, but he was still smaller than many other Orcs portrayed in that same short story.

the thing is all of maghar orcs in outland are bigger than the Green ones, and this don't make sense if the blood give to then more muscles and increase their size

it was not a model thing or error, was made on purpose, so unless they said the lethargy shrunk down the orcs, we could only speculate

[KrakHed]

the thing is all of maghar orcs in outland are bigger than the Green ones, and this don't make sense if the blood give to then more muscles and increase their size

Give me a size comparison. In Outland. Not of hero NPCs, but common shopkeeper NPCs.

I'm pretty sure the common Mag'har are no bigger than common Orc NPCs. Though now I look it up, I hear some of them may have been scaled too high by accident.

[Syegfryed]

Give me a size comparison. In Outland. Not of hero NPCs, but common shopkeeper NPCs.

I'm pretty sure the common Mag'har are no bigger than common Orc NPCs. Though now I look it up, I hear some of them may have been scaled too high by accident.

https://i.imgur.com/jFw5YXf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XTXPPqV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/w78VTDd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6CwJNj2.jpg


and this guy is just obnoxious:

[Qualia]

but again, we don't have this confirmation, just speculation, we only have a confirmation of then grwoing in strenght and power i when Grom drink it a second time

Why is the power gain from the second drinking ("With otherworldly power surging through their bodies, the orcs rampaged Ashenvale") a confirmation that drinking the blood another time granting the Orcs more strength and power, but the one from the first drink ("Grommash grew taller, and his muscles bulged as power flooded his veins" and "Clearly, demons had spiked the orcs' blood, and in turn the brutes had been granted unnaturally heightened strength, endurance, and aggression"). In both case, it was stated that they gained otherworldly / unnaturally strength and power.

it is on the wiki

I wouldn't take wiki as a canonical source when it comes to an argument. It's undeniable that Wowpedia is a good collection of lore, and it has its sources taken from canon, but still, it isn't canon. Those articles were written by players - like I, you, or anyone else on this site. As my interpretation of canon could be wrong, so could yours, or anyone else, and thus, the same thing applied to the wiki (assuming you are talking about Wowpedia instead of Wowwiki). There is a "references" section in which wiki article, so I'd appreciate it if you can link me where did that part of the wiki referred to - which book / interview and which page, ideally with the exact quote from those book - that'd make discussing things easier, or we'd have to interpret other players' interpretation instead of the lore. The wiki wording just isn't reliable enough to be part of a discussion (even though the serious of the debate isn't on the same level, but it's the same how wikis aren't acceptable references for your university assignments or working research papers). They are written by players like us, and have been wrong before (I can still those few months where people kept editting Yogg / C'thun's status back and forth between "Unknown", "Inactive" and "Deceased").

[KrakHed]

https://i.imgur.com/jFw5YXf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XTXPPqV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/w78VTDd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6CwJNj2.jpg


and this guy is just obnoxious:

Garrosh and Jorin are hero NPCs. As for that really huge fucker? I've heard someone confused the Mag'har for Mok'nathal and set the scaling wrong for a bunch of their NPCs. Brown Orcs aren't supposed to be bigger.

[Syegfryed]

Garrosh and Jorin are hero NPCs. As for that really huge fucker? I've heard someone confused the Mag'har for Mok'nathal and set the scaling wrong for a bunch of their NPCs. Brown Orcs aren't supposed to be bigger.

but all other brown orcs are bigger, not Garrosh and jorin, just that big boy is obnoxious