1. #39961
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Least I got T-Rex and Barding now along with the cowboy looking set so I'm done with lockboxes until the firework drop is reduced. Although why they don't just outright remove it is beyond me.
    Still haven't got T-Rex, not that I'll ever use it, but it's a sign of 'I survived Eureka', so might as well try for it.

    As for why they still have fireworks, in the words of the Great Sage Butt-Head, 'Uhh...it's like...you gotta have stuff that sucks...to have stuff that's cool...uh-huh-huh, huh-huh-huh...'

  2. #39962
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    That's not true. I've said this before. While I understand you don't have the same experience I have to qualify it, I've done high mythic + keys (20+) and those things are ass-puckering at times. The amount of survival by skin of the teeth moments we've had are insane. I know you've never participated it in and that sucks, because I'd take you just so you can experience it.

    I stand by my statement before. In over a decade+ of playing MMO's, Mythic + has by far been the most exciting and engaging addition I've ever experienced.
    Which is, I think, the point @Faroth was making. Most MMO's only get close to being difficult at a point most players are never going to reach. It gives the impression that the game world lacks any kind of real danger. It's right to an extent too, for the most part you're in very little danger of death in the open world in a Themepark MMO unless you venture to an area well above your level range.

    I was perfectly comfortable fighting mobs in groups of 3-4 in FF 14 while leveling without any major issues. Leveling as a Prot Paladin in WoW ment I could take on groups of 15+ mobs at times. Lack of danger outside of high level content is a very common theme in MMO's.

    It's not a problem that is beyond fixing however, but providing a challenging open world experience for all your players is extremely difficult for a Hotkey based MMO to pull off. Especially when your players come from all kinds of gaming backgrounds and skill levels to begin with.

  3. #39963
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    You have to give the mobs abilities that are actually dangerous and the player needs to pay attention to.
    Only thing you can't do is rely on interrupts / CCs because not every class has them, so that does limit the design choice to "dodge the funky circle".

  4. #39964
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    That's what I meant - I don't see the problem with Eureka being a full blown FFXI throw back to set it apart and make it wholly different from the rest of the game. Like I said, I feel it didn't go far enough in recreating that old school sense of exploration and danger and it becomes a little too samey to the rest of the game's design (noting Hunts and FATE train comparisons specifically).
    Ah my bad. We're on the same page then.

    Ah, yes, I've not done the high level mythic key runs. I want to say 5+ was what I was most commonly seeing in the search function when I quit my last stint in Legion. and I never did more than the first Mythic run, so that's fair! I would have enjoyed exploring those more, but my old guild is practically dissolved and none of my friends play WoW at all anymore. Alas...
    Come back for BfA. Even if you play casually that's fine. My buddies and I have a team of 4, room for 1 DPS slot . It'll be a shit show too, so plenty of ass puckering gameplay.

    Maybe if I break away from MMOs I will tackle some of those PS2 & PS3 RPGs you've recommended.
    Good you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Which is, I think, the point @Faroth was making. Most MMO's only get close to being difficult at a point most players are never going to reach. It gives the impression that the game world lacks any kind of real danger. It's right to an extent too, for the most part you're in very little danger of death in the open world in a Themepark MMO unless you venture to an area well above your level range.

    I was perfectly comfortable fighting mobs in groups of 3-4 in FF 14 while leveling without any major issues. Leveling as a Prot Paladin in WoW ment I could take on groups of 15+ mobs at times. Lack of danger outside of high level content is a very common theme in MMO's.

    It's not a problem that is beyond fixing however, but providing a challenging open world experience for all your players is extremely difficult for a Hotkey based MMO to pull off. Especially when your players come from all kinds of gaming backgrounds and skill levels to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    You have to give the mobs abilities that are actually dangerous and the player needs to pay attention to.
    Only thing you can't do is rely on interrupts / CCs because not every class has them, so that does limit the design choice to "dodge the funky circle".
    One thing I wanted to note though. I didn't take into account "open world". I missed that designation. It's true that themeparks tend to lack this aspect. The last time I encountered this was B&S. B&S wasn't "dangerous" in the sense we're talking, but enemies hit you hard, but it was easy to use your evasion/defensive skills and CC skills to mitigate incoming damage. If you literally tried to just auto attack the enemy, you'd die long before it did. I cannot say the same for WoW or FF14.

    Alternatively Blade and Soul had the "Terror" enemies. If any of you played vanilla B&S you know what I am talking about. Huge damage, high HP, telegraphs faster than Titan EX, and if you tried to run or outrange them, they throw a chain at you and combo you before slamming you in the ground.

    I've gone over my "idea" of compelling open world gameplay here before. The idea that enemies evolve and use abilities and AI as situations change. I.e. more aggressive when you're low HP, will try to interrupt/CC you when casting/healing, might enrage if you CC them, might flee to grab allies, etc.

    Shit like that would go a long way to making open worlds feel more dangerous.

  5. #39965
    I love FFXIV, as far as aesthetics and story, but I haven't felt compelled to log in and actually play in weeks. Eureka didn't help that either as I have no interest in grinding out anything in FATE trains anymore after all the FATE and Hunt grinding there was for leveling and Relic upgrades in ARR, Leveling and Anima upgrades in HW, etc...

    The only reason I stay subbed anymore and log in once a week or so is so I don't lose my house. Though I just realized they added Hildibrand quests on this latest patch too, so I'll check those out.

    I likely won't partake in much of the game unless there's a new patch introducing new story or side quests I'm interested in, because the formula is already getting really old and leveling classes is a huge chore IMO, especially DPS (which is all I have left to level) since the optimal way is through the roulette which takes FAR longer to queue for as DPS than as healers or tanks.

    I'm glad folks are enjoying Eureka though, it keeps the population healthy, I just personally don't see myself ever taking part in it...not at this point anyway.

  6. #39966
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I've gone over my "idea" of compelling open world gameplay here before. The idea that enemies evolve and use abilities and AI as situations change. I.e. more aggressive when you're low HP, will try to interrupt/CC you when casting/healing, might enrage if you CC them, might flee to grab allies, etc.

    Shit like that would go a long way to making open worlds feel more dangerous.
    Slightly off FFXIV topic, but did you keep tabs on the early days of EQNext when they were partnered up with Storybricks and the things they were trying to do with AI?

  7. #39967
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    One thing I wanted to note though. I didn't take into account "open world". I missed that designation. It's true that themeparks tend to lack this aspect.
    I'm aware you didn't say open world, but I don't think locking away the challenging content behind super-duper hardmode dungeons and raids is the way to go myself. Most players are never going to get to experience that kind of combat challenge, which is a shame because the point at which the game gets "good" is long after the point at which most people will have either quit playing or have given up on ever being able to complete that content and have gone off to do their own thing.

    Part of the problem, at least where FF14 is concerned, is that the leveling process is seen more as a way to deliver story content to the player. Players on the other hand seem to think of leveling as being a form of elongated tutorial, where you slowly learn how to play your class better and better until you reach the level cap. While there's not any inherent conflict of interests between the two, I do feel that both could be better served by the developers.

    The other part is that to create a combat system that teaches players how to deal with various mechanics they'll need to know later on. This is where the open world, in my oppinion, completely fails. It's very rare that you need to move outside of danger zones when you're not doing group content. It directly leads to the common situation where you get players that know what all their buttons and skills do, but can't move out of the bad stuff even when their life depends on it. That really needs to change and from an early level if you're looking to educate players enough for them to complete the harder content.

    Making the open world harder to deal with, thats "more challenging" not "more time consuming and arduous", would go a long way towards allowing players to really enjoy the combat more without needing to be part of a cutting edge raiding guild. I think everyone would benefit from such a set up, provided that the game builds up to that difficulty slowly, rather than expects players to start there.

  8. #39968
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I'm aware you didn't say open world, but I don't think locking away the challenging content behind super-duper hardmode dungeons and raids is the way to go myself. Most players are never going to get to experience that kind of combat challenge, which is a shame because the point at which the game gets "good" is long after the point at which most people will have either quit playing or have given up on ever being able to complete that content and have gone off to do their own thing.

    Part of the problem, at least where FF14 is concerned, is that the leveling process is seen more as a way to deliver story content to the player. Players on the other hand seem to think of leveling as being a form of elongated tutorial, where you slowly learn how to play your class better and better until you reach the level cap. While there's not any inherent conflict of interests between the two, I do feel that both could be better served by the developers.

    The other part is that to create a combat system that teaches players how to deal with various mechanics they'll need to know later on. This is where the open world, in my oppinion, completely fails. It's very rare that you need to move outside of danger zones when you're not doing group content. It directly leads to the common situation where you get players that know what all their buttons and skills do, but can't move out of the bad stuff even when their life depends on it. That really needs to change and from an early level if you're looking to educate players enough for them to complete the harder content.

    Making the open world harder to deal with, thats "more challenging" not "more time consuming and arduous", would go a long way towards allowing players to really enjoy the combat more without needing to be part of a cutting edge raiding guild. I think everyone would benefit from such a set up, provided that the game builds up to that difficulty slowly, rather than expects players to start there.
    For the most part I agree, however FFXIV forces players into dungeons as part of the story, where they are then forced to deal with the mechanics you're alluding to, so open world or not, players are exposed to all the mechanics they need to get familiar with as they level. Whether they ever learn to deal with them is another matter entirely, but the game does give every player the opportunity to learn them on their way to max level.

    Part of what's fun to me in any game is to always have something to strive for. One of the coolest things in FFXI when I played was that there was always a sense of danger out in the world, because getting aggro from something was always dangerous, because things you could kill easily didn't aggro you unless you literally walked through them. Getting better gear made survival less uncertain, but more often than not you would simply be vigilant and ensure you never got aggro in the first place. The game gave you tools, usually items, but also abilities/ spells in some cases, to avoid getting aggro from things you didn't want to get aggro from and simply getting to your destination unscathed was an accomplishment. There were some things you weren't ever meant to out level or out gear.

    I think my mentality on this is really summed up as; if reaching your destination is a foregone conclusion, the value of the journey is lost.

    In general I think there just needs to always be a threat that's always there and not just locked behind some instance door or something, but in the world. And not just a bunch of nuisance mobs aggroing you and dismounting you, I mean real threats. That said, part of what made the threat in FFXI so real was the fact that you lost a huge chunk of xp when you died and could actually delevel, and you couldn't just run back to your body and start where you left off (much like FFXIV) and traveling certain places took a lot of time, so you had to be hyper vigilant if you didn't want to waste massive amounts of time.

  9. #39969
    Pandaren Monk Melsiren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Slightly off FFXIV topic, but did you keep tabs on the early days of EQNext when they were partnered up with Storybricks and the things they were trying to do with AI?
    R.I.P EQ Next and its ambitious emersive world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    High elf fans are basically flat-earth society of warcraft lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Alleria Windrunner View Post
    I AM the victim.

  10. #39970
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralqadar View Post
    R.I.P EQ Next and its ambitious emersive world.
    While EQ was just before my PC gaming time, I was pretty optimistic about what EQN could shape up to be. So much for that, unfortunately.

    More on topic: Level 20 and 3 weapons done. This is by far the easiest first step of any sort of relic weapon questline.

    Food for thought: each area of Eureka is elementally aspected. We make a different weapon from each area (so you don’t need Anemos weapons to make the next one). However...at the end of the xpac, we combine all the weapons made into Captain Stormblood Relic.

  11. #39971
    Elvl 17, got my mount. Story bit was mildly interesting. Be glad to finish out my relic stuff, though I expect I'll keep using Eureka for Tomestone cap until I finish my Mendacity gear.

  12. #39972
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Lv 20 now and already got more zuzu feathers than I play active classes.

  13. #39973
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Lv 20 now and already got more zuzu feathers than I play active classes.
    Send them to me

    8 weapons done and enough crystals on hand for #9; just need another set of feathers. I’m still helping friends/FC with leveling up in there plus it’s famtastic for capping weekly tomestones, so getting the rest of the crystals won’t be too bad...aside from the eleventy billion times I have to click to convert crystals. Ugh...

  14. #39974
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Yeah since I have no pressing need for the weapon I'll wait for the announced crystal exchange hotfix.

  15. #39975
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Lv 20 now and already got more zuzu feathers than I play active classes.
    Yea I bought 2 weapons and now I have a ton of leftover feathers/crystals. Just holding on to them until the next step comes out I think because I don't really like a lot of the current stuff.

  16. #39976
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Slightly off FFXIV topic, but did you keep tabs on the early days of EQNext when they were partnered up with Storybricks and the things they were trying to do with AI?
    Yes I did. I was super excited to be a Lion person type of Knight and actually was digging the concept. Like all MMO's though the combat system was going to be the main draw for me. I needed more info on it to be 100% on board. I like the bigger ideas behind their systems and was willing to try it for sure though.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    The other part is that to create a combat system that teaches players how to deal with various mechanics they'll need to know later on. This is where the open world, in my oppinion, completely fails. It's very rare that you need to move outside of danger zones when you're not doing group content. It directly leads to the common situation where you get players that know what all their buttons and skills do, but can't move out of the bad stuff even when their life depends on it. That really needs to change and from an early level if you're looking to educate players enough for them to complete the harder content.

    Making the open world harder to deal with, thats "more challenging" not "more time consuming and arduous", would go a long way towards allowing players to really enjoy the combat more without needing to be part of a cutting edge raiding guild. I think everyone would benefit from such a set up, provided that the game builds up to that difficulty slowly, rather than expects players to start there.
    We're on the same page here. Agreed.

  17. #39977
    No lifed the shot out of the game yesterday; 12 weapons complete as a result. To top it off, I logged on this morning before work to catch the last Pazuzu kill I will ever need. Just 3k protein crystals short of all the weapons...then it’s off to make the DRG armor and I’ll be done with this part of Eureka outside of helping friends there.

  18. #39978
    Oh I forgot to mention finally eeked out an O8S kill.

  19. #39979
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Oh I forgot to mention finally eeked out an O8S kill.
    Meanwhile my poor casual butt is still trying to get his 05S kill.

    IMA DO IT.

  20. #39980
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Meanwhile my poor casual butt is still trying to get his 05S kill.

    IMA DO IT.
    Just gotta keep up with it. If you need help and don't mind a lower chest reward I'd gladly help if you're on Primal.

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