Master Looter

[Emerald Archer]

Again, that is your choice to participate in such a grueling environment that treats people like resources. Your decision to be part of that idiocy should not effect my ability to choose how to play.

Of course that's their decision. People choose what kind of guild they want to join. Higher end mythic guilds (say top 150) it IS like burek said, outside of a few exceptions.

There IS competition for these guilds, they want to improve, they want to get better rankings than they did previously. Yes there are a few exceptions in the top 150. But the general mindset is that it is competitive. You want to beat the people on your server, in your region, over all regions. Whatever your goal is. Even if it's just to beat that 1 guild with similar prog to you.

It might not be competitive to you, that's okay. That's 100% fine, people should play in guilds that match their stance on raiding. But that doesn't make competitive minded players in the wrong, because it isn't what YOU like.

If you want to be in one of these guilds, you have to know you're ALWAYS playing for your raid spot. It doesn't matter if you've been in the guild for 5 years, if some trial of the same spec shows up, and is better than you at mechanics, dps etc, and once he passes trial the next boss requires just 1 of your spec, the newly passed trial is going to take your spot on that fight.

And your prog will increase the amount and quality of apps you get. So it is important to finish as early as you can, even if you aren't intentionally competing with other guilds.

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My biggest gripe with Personal Loot is that you're unable to trade anything that's higher ilvl than you currently have in the slot.
If you get a piece of gear X ilvls higher with bad stats that you'll never use, all you can do is vendor it and then everyone is losing out.

That's not how personal loot works? They changed it.

You can trade any item you get, no matter how much higher it is than what you have. Outside of tier, I think either tier needs to be higher, or you need to have that tier item already. I can't remember the specifics around tier, but it works differently.

They might change it back in BFA, but its been months since it has worked the way you stated.

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Dabbled means to do something casually there is nothing casual about being 2 bosses short of clearing a raid on mythic to most people.

I mean, you can see it as "all but 2 bosses" or you can see it as "they've killed all the easy bosses and are now stuck at the first hard one"

But anyone 9/11M now, should eventually kill aggramar within a few hundred wipes. So I don't agree with the guy saying it's beyond their capabilities. They'll get aggramar after an insane amount of wipes for sure. Not to mention after nerfs.

But if they're 9/11M at the end of a tier, yes they dabbled. They killed the easy bosses and never got a hard boss down. It's not a proper mythic guild, but a heroic guild who partakes in mythic. But in all seriousness, good on any heroic guild who gets past 5/11M. They're a step above the typical heroic raiders who partake in mythic.

[Firatha]

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I mean, you can see it as "all but 2 bosses" or you can see it as "they've killed all the easy bosses and are now stuck at the first hard one"

But anyone 9/11M now, should eventually kill aggramar within a few hundred wipes. So I don't agree with the guy saying it's beyond their capabilities. They'll get aggramar after an insane amount of wipes for sure. Not to mention after nerfs.

But if they're 9/11M at the end of a tier, yes they dabbled. They killed the easy bosses and never got a hard boss down. It's not a proper mythic guild, but a heroic guild who partakes in mythic. But in all seriousness, good on any heroic guild who gets past 5/11M. They're a step above the typical heroic raiders who partake in mythic.

In almost any past raid including this teir being having only the last 2 bosses left is already being past the first hard bosses the biggest % gap in kill numbers is always before the last 2 this teir its Imonar last teir it was mistress or even sisters to some extant. As for guilds clearing half of mythic but still being considered a heroic guild its always been a dumb thing to be because at that point your plan was never just to stop after clearing heroic it was always to just to see how far you can get knowing you wont ever get past the really hard end 2ish bosses in mythic thats still a mythic guild however some heroic guild that has no set goal of killing mythic bosses decides try and kill the first boss and manages to kill after a few weeks and stops there thats a heroic dabbling in mythic.

EDIT let me try and say this another way this is all opinion in the end really but it kinda goes like this for me

Guild that's goal is just to kill heroic but ends up killing the first bosses over the months of the teir very much a Heroic Guild just messing around in mythic casually

Guilds that's goal is to try and kill heroic asap but still takes them some time to even to that and but still plans to kill mythic bosses but only is never able to get past that hard hump buts goal was to kill mythic bosses this is very clearly a mythic guild a bad one though.

Then there are what people might view as "real" mythic guilds, guilds that clear heroic week one and start mythic on its first week with the intend to of at least getting to the last boss maybe just missing CE but still getting to try it.

[Deleted]

I can't understand one thing, why you deny guilds which wanna compete on their own server in ranking? For you master loot and the best guilds is just guild in top10 world... but what with local guilds on servers? If you wanna progress and some day be that top10 guild you need people in your roster, you can recruit best people if your progress is high and your ranking on server is high so most of top20 guilds in all servers COMPETE for players. ML is loot system for most of them, if you don't wanna compete with them just progress HC and use PL or find guild which progressing mythic and use PL...

and for me.. being in top5 guild in server is compete enough but i need ML for that.

The problem is that people wanna gear but dont wanna make any afford to get it. They wanna come to first squad first day and just get everything "bcuz i deserved!". No, you don't. Thats why guilds using DKP, EPGP or council loot.

Last thing. Tell me, with PL HOW can you make people to be in time on raid, to have food/flasks and don't make same mistakes? No, you can't kick them from raid bcuz most of guilds have only 20-25 active rairders so you dont have so many players to choose... Raid Leader have to any way to maintain policy of smooth and good raiding.

[Emerald Archer]

Guilds that's goal is to try and kill heroic asap but still takes them some time to even to that and but still plans to kill mythic bosses but only is never able to get past that hard hump buts goal was to kill mythic bosses this is very clearly a mythic guild a bad one though.

Then there are what people might view as "real" mythic guilds, guilds that clear heroic week one and start mythic on its first week with the intend to of at least getting to the last boss maybe just missing CE but still getting to try it.

Imonar can't be compared to mistress, augur, botanist, maiden etc. It's a very easy fight, so are the rest before Aggramar. It's unique to this tier.

But what i said doesn't apply to all raids. You're 100% right. But this raid, that will be the case. Especially considering it's the last raid of the tier, which usually ends in the hardest difficulty being an actual joke. 9/11 will be a joke to reach.

[SirCowdog]

Of course that's their decision. People choose what kind of guild they want to join. Higher end mythic guilds (say top 150) it IS like burek said, outside of a few exceptions.

There IS competition for these guilds, they want to improve, they want to get better rankings than they did previously. Yes there are a few exceptions in the top 150. But the general mindset is that it is competitive. You want to beat the people on your server, in your region, over all regions. Whatever your goal is. Even if it's just to beat that 1 guild with similar prog to you.

It might not be competitive to you, that's okay. That's 100% fine, people should play in guilds that match their stance on raiding. But that doesn't make competitive minded players in the wrong, because it isn't what YOU like.

If you want to be in one of these guilds, you have to know you're ALWAYS playing for your raid spot. It doesn't matter if you've been in the guild for 5 years, if some trial of the same spec shows up, and is better than you at mechanics, dps etc, and once he passes trial the next boss requires just 1 of your spec, the newly passed trial is going to take your spot on that fight.

And your prog will increase the amount and quality of apps you get. So it is important to finish as early as you can, even if you aren't intentionally competing with other guilds.

And how does ANY of that change or impact what I said? People are still choosing and deciding to involve themselves in a type of gameplay that they KNOW is going to require a much different approach to what they might normally do. They're trying to emulate or participate in the top 1% of the entire population of the playerbase. And Blizzard is making changes that effects the other 99% of players based on that 1%.

Everyone else is losing player agency because of the actions of a relative handful of people. That's not in any way fair or equitable.

[Deleted]

And how does ANY of that change or impact what I said? People are still choosing and deciding to involve themselves in a type of gameplay that they KNOW is going to require a much different approach to what they might normally do. They're trying to emulate or participate in the top 1% of the entire population of the playerbase. And Blizzard is making changes that effects the other 99% of players based on that 1%.

Everyone else is losing player agency because of the actions of a relative handful of people. That's not in any way fair or equitable.

Its not emulating. If you dont progress current raid your best people will leave, if you wanna keep them you have to kill ASAP next bosses. If you wanna do that you have to compete with another LOCAL (on same servers) guilds for best players in server. In other way your guild will disapper or finish with 3/11M.

Stop with that stupid argument that ML is just for ML and competition is only between top10 guilds in the world.

Create your own guild and try to clear entire raid on mythic. GL with maintain 20 ppl squad who can clear mythic coves or aggramar.

[Deleted]

And how does ANY of that change or impact what I said? People are still choosing and deciding to involve themselves in a type of gameplay that they KNOW is going to require a much different approach to what they might normally do. They're trying to emulate or participate in the top 1% of the entire population of the playerbase. And Blizzard is making changes that effects the other 99% of players based on that 1%.

Everyone else is losing player agency because of the actions of a relative handful of people. That's not in any way fair or equitable.

Its not emulating. If you wanna make progress you need great players, if you wanna keep them you have to make progress in other way they go to another guild with better progress. So you HAVE to compete with locals guilds. For the best progress you need ML. If you don't do that your people will leave and your guild will be disbanded or you will stay on 3/11M.

Try to create your own guild and maintain 20 great people for progress, you will see how is hard to clear covens or aggra on mythic without decent people.

[Emerald Archer]

And how does ANY of that change or impact what I said? People are still choosing and deciding to involve themselves in a type of gameplay that they KNOW is going to require a much different approach to what they might normally do. They're trying to emulate or participate in the top 1% of the entire population of the playerbase. And Blizzard is making changes that effects the other 99% of players based on that 1%.

Everyone else is losing player agency because of the actions of a relative handful of people. That's not in any way fair or equitable.

No I agree with you that changes shouldn't be made, I don't like the changes but I'm not too phased. If it's personal loot, we'll just treat it like master loot and have everyone give their personal loot to 1 person who then shares it out.

I'm just saying that the way you worded a lot of your things, seemed like you thought there was something wrong with the cutthroat behaviours of top 100-200 guilds.

[Maykel]

Stop. No. This is why we can't have nice things!
No one is forcing you to play that way!

God dammit! It's like people can't grasp this simple concept. You'd rather force everyone else who plays the game to conform to your own terrible decision to play in a specific way that's already harmful to your own enjoyment, rather than actually recognize it and just NOT do it. You want everyone to lose the ability to choose how to play so you don't have to be careful or responsible with your own decisions. WTF!

Aren't you doing exactly the same saying people can't play with ML?

And how does ANY of that change or impact what I said? People are still choosing and deciding to involve themselves in a type of gameplay that they KNOW is going to require a much different approach to what they might normally do. They're trying to emulate or participate in the top 1% of the entire population of the playerbase. And Blizzard is making changes that effects the other 99% of players based on that 1%.

Everyone else is losing player agency because of the actions of a relative handful of people. That's not in any way fair or equitable.

I've been reading through the last couple of pages, but I've yet to see a proper argument on why ML has to be removed completely (not just from you). I see comments stating you can trade all the loot to 1 person and then distribute. Why? Why can't I just to this with ML? Why can't we just keep both? I mean, people can still make a decision on whether they want to play with ML or PL. Don't like ML? Don't join a guild/raid that uses it. No one is forcing you.
In the different loot systems I've experienced I still find ML/Loot council the best option looking at how I like to play the game. And in the period I've been using ML/loot council (current guild, since start of MoP) I've seen 1 person actually quit over the loot system (trialist who expected to get a lot of gear in her 1st week).

[Leodric]

I've been reading through the last couple of pages, but I've yet to see a proper argument on why ML has to be removed completely (not just from you). I see comments stating you can trade all the loot to 1 person and then distribute. Why? Why can't I just to this with ML? Why can't we just keep both? I mean, people can still make a decision on whether they want to play with ML or PL. Don't like ML? Don't join a guild/raid that uses it. No one is forcing you.
In the different loot systems I've experienced I still find ML/Loot council the best option looking at how I like to play the game. And in the period I've been using ML/loot council (current guild, since start of MoP) I've seen 1 person actually quit over the loot system (trialist who expected to get a lot of gear in her 1st week).

Of course they can make a decision, but they deep down want to get carried by those ML using guilds (who use this method to be more efficent) AND get loot, without putting the work of being a loyal player who pulls his weight. People complaining about ML are people who are pulling bad parses and don't understand why another raider who is way more valuable than they are get's the loot first. They want to have the same reward as someone who puts way more energy and skill into it. Also giving them the option to open up their own guild and manage their own raid will not be followed, because they will realize soon that managing all that extra stuff isn't as easy as they thought.

Basically people who don't want to put the effort into something. Adult Babies.

[franksredhot]

Because casuals, when given the chance, absolutely love to take away any toys from hardcore players, but whine constantly in favor of the exact same thing you're talking about when their toys are threatened. They are, historically, massive hypocrites.

I see people on the official forums especially, who have a real axe to grind with anyone who is actually good at the game and plays more than they do. There's an incredibly toxic inferiority complex going around the WoW players.

It's this.

You can see exactly the same thing in other domains. There's some type of privilege that people expect. They're refusing to recognize that outcome could possibly be due to effort.

The same type of issue manifests on the other side as well, with the complaints against LFR and titanforging. This is the "high effort" argument. They see that low effort can lead to (possibly) greater outcome, and their justice bells ring.

What both sides need to understand is that BOTH of these arguments are logically consistent, and important enough to large amounts of players to warrant open dialogue. Too often I see straw-manning and ad hominem nonsense on here. It's unproductive.

Consider the other position in a way that you aren't just attempting to counterpoint it. Actually think about how you could have your mind changed, and allow that argument to attempt it.

[Deleted]

He isn't wrong. Contemplate the idea of raid tryouts, which individuals absolutely will use as a shot at loot rather than the intended purpose.

yes, he is 100% wrong. and silly no one will join a guild as tryout to get loot when you can just join a pug. this aint 2004 anymore but 2018 where every raid is being pugged 24/7....

[Deleted]

yes, he is 100% wrong. and silly no one will join a guild as tryout to get loot when you can just join a pug. this aint 2004 anymore but 2018 where every raid is being pugged 24/7....

GL pug mythic.

[melodramocracy]

I just hope after ML is removed that the culture in most of the guilds improves as people stop worrying so much about who gets what loot, but Im probably deluding myself even thinking thats possible, gonna be nerdrage all day and night every time Jimmy stands in fire gets a TF ovettuned trinket.

If anyone wanted raid culture to truly improve, they'd be asking Blizzard to ban meters and strip ilvl from gear entirely.

[Eazy]

Don't you want more new WF guilds? Aren't you tired of Method and Exorsus being the only ones? And guilds dropping left and right?

That's straight bullshit. People have the same opportunities in this game. It's not like Method or Exorsus have bonuses.

[lummiuster]

Stop. No. This is why we can't have nice things!

You are not competing with anyone. That is your own perception, not the objective truth. It literally doesn't matter if another guild is more progressed than you unless you're in the top 10 guild in the entire freaking world. And even then the game doesn't reward you for being world first. That's 100% 3rd part competition for views based 100% outside of the game. Loot doesn't go away if someone gets there first. Drops don't change if you're a week behind or ahead. Bosses don't disappear or do different attacks because you reached it before anyone else.

And even IF for some reason you were actually in such a top-10 guild, you're still suggesting that Blizzard modify and change and take away even more player agency because of less than a fraction of 1% of the entire playerbase. That is just plain wrong.

But lets go ahead and take your argument seriously. Lets say there WAS some kind of competition with other guilds that effected the entire game. YOU would still be CHOSING to engage in that competition. It's YOUR OWN FAULT that you're choosing to feel like you're forced to be ultra-mega-basement-dwelling-tryhard. No one is forcing you to play that way!

God dammit! It's like people can't grasp this simple concept. You'd rather force everyone else who plays the game to conform to your own terrible decision to play in a specific way that's already harmful to your own enjoyment, rather than actually recognize it and just NOT do it. You want everyone to lose the ability to choose how to play so you don't have to be careful or responsible with your own decisions. WTF!

I have never raided to compete and I find it very nuts. I said "compete" because I know it is the main concern for guilds who want ML. The only use of ML is to be stronger and to compete. Since there is no such competition, then lets get rid of it... You just made my point and killed all the reasons why ML exist.

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This doesn't reflect reality in the slightest. Plenty of guilds are non-competitive, and actually run PL 100% of the time.

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.

Exactly. Why these non-competitive guilds would have to suffer (raids being harder) because they want to use personal loot...

[In Ogres We Trust]

Ehh...

Who cares? At first, since it eliminated choice, I was against it, but as it currently stands, good for them. An argument could be made for leaving ML on Mythic only, but even then, my gut tells me that they're trying to prolong the life of each raid (and by extension, raider subscriptions) while, at the same time, removing gear carries, progression carries, ninja looting, cheap tactics by master looters, etc.

[Onikaroshi]

Ehh...

Who cares? At first, since it eliminated choice, I was against it, but as it currently stands, good for them. An argument could be made for leaving ML on Mythic only, but even then, my gut tells me that they're trying to prolong the life of each raid (and by extension, raider subscriptions) while, at the same time, removing gear carries, progression carries, ninja looting, cheap tactics by master looters, etc.

Why bother, we're not the cyclical ones, raiders are generally the one subscribed the longest straight.

And as for the carries.... they want the carries (for gold) people buy tokens (from blizzard, for money) to get gold, to buy carries. Gold carries are nothing but money in the bank for Blizzard.

[Talvindius]

ML benefits a minority of raiders, and even those who benefit from it aren't gonna see much of a difference since tier gear is gone. I imagine a lot of high end progression guilds will probably do a lot of their gearing in m+ since it's repeatable and you can target specific dungeon loot with comps of a specific armor type.

Fair chance at loot still exists, nothing wrong with that.

[SirCowdog]

I'm just saying that the way you worded a lot of your things, seemed like you thought there was something wrong with the cutthroat behaviours of top 100-200 guilds.

Well, yes, that's true. But it's a different topic. The reason I was harping on it was because someone used the "competition" of those top guilds as justification for why ML needed to be removed. My point was two-fold:

1) If you want to compete, that's your choice. Don't try to force that choice or the consequences of it on other people.
2) BLIZZARD removing Master Loot for everyone because they don't like how those top guilds operate is likewise forcing everyone to suffer to consequences of their actions(that's bad too!)

Also, under the new system, according to Hazzicostas, you can't trade items unless they're lower ilvl than what you have. This means you can't do any kind of loot council or trading during progression.

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Aren't you doing exactly the same saying people can't play with ML?


I've been reading through the last couple of pages, but I've yet to see a proper argument on why ML has to be removed completely (not just from you). I see comments stating you can trade all the loot to 1 person and then distribute. Why? Why can't I just to this with ML? Why can't we just keep both? I mean, people can still make a decision on whether they want to play with ML or PL. Don't like ML? Don't join a guild/raid that uses it. No one is forcing you.
In the different loot systems I've experienced I still find ML/Loot council the best option looking at how I like to play the game. And in the period I've been using ML/loot council (current guild, since start of MoP) I've seen 1 person actually quit over the loot system (trialist who expected to get a lot of gear in her 1st week).

I. Am. Arguing. In. Favor. Of. Master. Loot.

Or rather the decision of people to CHOOSE to use it. As I just posted, the original person I was replying to was arguing that master looting and top guilds were using it in a "bad" way, and so that's why personal loot only was good.

I'm almost ALWAYS in favor of player agency and their ability to choose how they wish to play. I am NOT in favor of people trying to dictate their own personal choices on everyone.