Umbric's logic

[Florena]

My understanding with void elves is that they're largely loyal to Alleria specifically for saving her from the void and teaching them to resist its whispers, similar to many forsaken being loyal to Sylvannas specifically rather than the Horde. Joining the Alliance was the price of her aid. With their transformation, they can't exactly go back to Silvermoon and tell Rommath they forsook void magic and ask to be let back in, there's no going back for them. I'm not saying the void elf story couldn't have been better, but it doesn't really strike me as worse than 'the alliance is too closed off' even though there is zero indication the Alliance wouldn't have allowed the nightborne to keep their traditions as well. Or what we've seen datamined of the draenor orcs coming to aid the horde and seeming to have forgotten it wasn't just the horde that helped save their timeline, etc.

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This is incorrect. The Void Elves don't want to fight the Horde. They do it because Alleria is forcing them to. She won't teach them how to remain sane without giving her something in return.

Yeah. They say Silvermoon abandoned them which you can argue against but Umbric showed no desire to kill blood elves.

[JTHMRulez1]

The void is very powerful, but its drawbacks are simply just not worth the gains, fel is already in a category of better not used and if used only in small amounts and void is much worse.

But, again, we have both the examples of the PC character and Locus Walker. You could also include Alleria but she is still pretty ignorant about the Void althogether. Sure, the weak-minded and ignorant should never even try to wield the Void. But it would be ignorant to negate the fact that the Void is an incredibly powerful force, specially with the angle that Blizzard is following.

Besides. Fel is not in that category. Demon Hunters and lots of warlocks use fel and not in small amounts. I don't see people saying that Demon Hunters are stupid. Despite also having examples of Demon Hunters who turned to the dark side and Warlocks aswell.

[Goldielocks]

Yeah. They say Silvermoon abandoned them which you can argue against but Umbric showed no desire to kill blood elves.

At the same time, to desire the death of the entire Horde just because of Silvermoon is silly. To further argue, Sylvanas would have welcomed them with open arms (thanks to their power, the same reason why she accepted the Nightborne). If Umbric had a brain he would have understood this.

However, he desired to keep his sanity more. An understandable choice.

[Torrasque]

In all seriousness, this logic is shared with Thalyssra and the Nightborne...

[Friendlyimmolation]

So you're completely incapable of seeing my point - I know what I said. That's the talking point, this mystical "new horde" that does all the exact same things as the old one, but now for some reason it's honorable and not a blood haze.

Like I've outlined before, I'll simplify it - guy murders your family, you hate him more than anything... a few years later he apologizes and says he's not a killer and wants to be your friend. Cool. "What do you spend your time doing now that you're not a killer, guy?" "Oh... I've just been murdering your cousins that you don't like. Also, your family is weak trash."

I'll let the elf Alleria Windrunner expound on this point, quote: "Impossible! I refuse to believe she now leads the Horde. Not after all they did to our people during the war." This is the feelings of a person who those events happened to 1000 years ago... for everyone else who experienced them at the time of their joining the horde, they happened just over 10 years ago.

In this time you're failing to mention how they lost 90% of their people to the scourge, and how in their darkest moments the most unlikely ally was the only one who offered genuine help. It has jack fucking shit to do with honor, and more to do with staying with the faction that ends up being a safer bet then the humans who have proven them selves unreliable at best from the elves point of view.

Once again, Alleria, Vereesa, the pathetically small group of high elves that aren't Horde are the exception, the rest got over the Horde's misdeeds when there were much bigger fish to fry and the Alliance had already proved themselves unworthy allies.

No, I'm entertaining the ideas of "how would real living beings with actual emotion and motivation act in this circumstance?" You're living in Blizzard hand wave land, where anything goes because Blizz says so. "Hey these guys are friends now!" Ok? Really? "Blood elves HATE Night elves now!" Ummm... wait... when Kael'thas met them both sides were eager to become allies. "Yeah but then the Night elves spied on them... have YOU ever been spied on? It's way worse than mass genocide." Ok Blizzard, I get it... you want Blood Elves to join Horde, I'll wait for you to flesh out the story with Kael and Illidan and how all that works out. *Hands waving aggressively* "No. They're all bad guys now. Everyone is mad." Ok, I give up.

Accepting the void elf lore requires the same exercise in going "Eh. Ok Blizzard. Whatever you say." that we all suspended our disbelief when blood elves were announced.

You're trying to shove your own opinions in and treat them with the same weight as canon. That's called headcanon.

Youre still screeching about being spied on when it wasn't the spying itself that was such a bad thing, but the fact that it was yet another show of false friendship and betrayal form a supposed ally that pushed them over the edge. You talk about show don't tell but then you seem incapable of seeing any story that isn't beaten over your head.

That's some pretty heavy fucking bias to try to equate the blood elves reasoning for going to the Horde for the Void elves going Alliance.

[Goldielocks]

In all seriousness, this logic is shared with Thalyssra and the Nightborne...

No it isn't? Thalyssra went to the Night Elves first. Tyrande spoke down to them and implied a state of stagnation. The Nightborne didn't want this. Once Liadrin spoke sympathetic words and promises of freedom, Thalyssra was sold.

[Florena]

At the same time, to desire the death of the entire Horde just because of Silvermoon is silly. To further argue, Sylvanas would have welcomed them with open arms (thanks to their power, the same reason why she accepted the Nightborne). If Umbric had a brain he would have understood this.

However, he desired to keep his sanity more. An understandable choice.

Slow down a sec. Who said the void elves desire the death of the entire horde?

[Goldielocks]

Slow down a sec. Who said the void elves desire the death of the entire horde?

Nobody did. I'm saying that people are assuming the Void Elves are voluntarily attacking the Horde as a whole, when the prospect is silly. I did say that.

The idea that Alleria is manipulating them is being understated by the narrative, which is why it's going over so many people's heads, like OP's.

[Torrasque]

No it isn't? Thalyssra went to the Night Elves first. Tyrande spoke down to them and implied a state of stagnation. The Nightborne didn't want this. Once Liadrin spoke sympathetic words and promises of freedom, Thalyssra was sold.

I'm sorry, but since when is "talking down to someone" a reason for participating in committing genocide on your own race? That's quite the fascinating leap of logic that I'd like to see explained. Let's not forget that the very first war effort that Thalyssa takes on is by attacking Night Elf forces in Ashenvale with exactly zero provocation other than changing her title from First Arcanist to First Conquerer, and leading assault that will ultimately led to the burning of Teldrassil.

[Deleted]

But, again, we have both the examples of the PC character and Locus Walker. You could also include Alleria but she is still pretty ignorant about the Void althogether. Sure, the weak-minded and ignorant should never even try to wield the Void. But it would be ignorant to negate the fact that the Void is an incredibly powerful force, specially with the angle that Blizzard is following.

Besides. Fel is not in that category. Demon Hunters and lots of warlocks use fel and not in small amounts. I don't see people saying that Demon Hunters are stupid. Despite also having examples of Demon Hunters who turned to the dark side and Warlocks aswell.

I saw a lot of people saying Demonhunters were stupid. They were locked away for a long time by the ones who did, the Wardens. And even when they returned and tried to help they were mistrusted and only allowed in hesitantly by everybody else.
And we saw a lot of them fall to the the Fel, either by being persuaded with the power up from the Legion, by falling prey to the addiction, by simply giving in to their demon (insanity by whispers from inside their heads) or by Fel and the demon alike or by being duped by an outside demon (Black Rook Hold)

But still, for some it seems to have been the right way and they and their powers were immensely useful.
And I think it's going to be the same with the void. Once more people actually learn how to wield it without going insane on the spot.

[Goldielocks]

I'm sorry, but since when is "talking down to someone" a reason for participating in committing genocide on your own race? That's quite the fascinating leap of logic that I'd like to see explained. Let's not forget that the very first war effort that Thalyssa takes on is by attacking Night Elf forces in Ashenvale with exactly zero provocation other than changing her title from First Arcanist to First Conquerer, and leading assault that will ultimately led to the burning of Teldrassil.

This doesn't make any sense at all. The High Elves have been separated from the original Night Elves for just as long, and they've had the same effect done to then over time. They both were changed by different fonts of power. Where's this logic? Why would the Blood Elves want to kill them then, hmm?

Talk about a leap lmfao

[RobertMugabe]

I assume he meant they didn't leave like 5 days ago, and suddenly are at war with people they lived next to.

If you put it this way, this actually sounds very realistic... looking at some recent and past wars IRL

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I'm sorry, but since when is "talking down to someone" a reason for participating in committing genocide on your own race? That's quite the fascinating leap of logic that I'd like to see explained. Let's not forget that the very first war effort that Thalyssa takes on is by attacking Night Elf forces in Ashenvale with exactly zero provocation other than changing her title from First Arcanist to First Conquerer, and leading assault that will ultimately led to the burning of Teldrassil.

Srsly, wait... that's actually gonna happen in BfA? Damn, the current lore writers at Blizz really suck hard tbh

[Combatbutler]

But, again, we have both the examples of the PC character and Locus Walker. You could also include Alleria but she is still pretty ignorant about the Void althogether. Sure, the weak-minded and ignorant should never even try to wield the Void. But it would be ignorant to negate the fact that the Void is an incredibly powerful force, specially with the angle that Blizzard is following.

Compared to the rest of the universe that has existed for many eons they are pretty much nothing, we are talking about possibly trillions of beings who dabbled with the void and eventually fell to its influence.

Besides. Fel is not in that category. Demon Hunters and lots of warlocks use fel and not in small amounts. I don't see people saying that Demon Hunters are stupid. Despite also having examples of Demon Hunters who turned to the dark side and Warlocks aswell.

Demon hunters are already skirting the absolute limit, 80% of their initiates actually die because of their teachings

[Torrasque]

This doesn't make any sense at all. The High Elves have been separated from the original Night Elves for just as long, and they've had the same effect done to then over time. They both were changed by different fonts of power. Where's this logic? Why would the Blood Elves want to kill them then, hmm?

Talk about a leap lmfao

The correlation is between Nightborne and Night Elves, not Blood Elves and Night Elves.

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Srsly, wait... that's actually gonna happen in BfA? Damn, the current lore writers at Blizz really suck hard tbh

Thalyssa attacking Ashenvale is already in Live... She says it in the Nightborne Allied Race questline.

[Goldielocks]

The correlation is between Nightborne and Night Elves, not Blood Elves and Night Elves.

The correlation is the exact same. To say that the Nightborne are Night Elves is no different than saying the Blood Elves are too.

Your logic falls through easily.

[Combatbutler]

Thalyssa attacking Ashenvale is already in Live... She says it in the Nightborne Allied Race questline.

When? I don't recall seeing it anywhere.

[Torrasque]

The correlation is the exact same. To say that the Nightborne are Night Elves is no different than saying the Blood Elves are too.

Your logic falls through easily.

If only it was the Blood Elves, which it's not. Your false correlation is false and therefore doesn't disprove my point. Fact is, Thalyssra has exactly zero reason to begin attacking Night Elves other than having Tyrande asking her, legitimately, what does she plan to do with the vacuum of power that she created by usurping Elisande.

[Al Gorefiend]

I think its an important distinction that Void Elves are different from Blood Elves in that they willingly choose to indulge in dark and dangerous magic, that Lor'themar finds it a danger to public safety.

It exists in precedence for Blood Elve's storyline.

Like, remember when after the entire race was cursed by Fel magic, they kicked out all the Warlo-

I mean, bad example hehe. Remember when after the scourge ravaged their homeland, they shunned away undead, former generals of the Scourge now known as Death Kni-

Oh, whoops. another sorry example lol. How about, remember when servitors of Illidan, the great betrayer who led their king Kael'Thas to his doom arrived in Silvermoon, having embraced the power of demonic energies and referring to themselves as the Illidari, swore loyalty as the Horde's new Demon Hu-

Shit. Haha thats a bad example. Well, to be fair, they have kicked out Blood Elves who delved into dangerous forms of void and shadow magic, ever heard of a Blood Elf Prie-

Err...hm...

Fuck it, Void Elves are a goddamn joke.

[Goldielocks]

If only it was the Blood Elves, which it's not. Your false correlation is false and therefore doesn't disprove my point. Fact is, Thalyssra has exactly zero reason to begin attacking Night Elves other than having Tyrande asking her, legitimately, what does she plan to do with the vacuum of power that she created by usurping Elisande.

Yes it fucking does. You're implying that the Nightborne are Night Elves, giving Thalyssra more of a reason to join the Alliance. They aren't. They've been changed much like the High Elves were.

To say that there is "zero reason" is something we don't know yet. BFA has not been released yet. You're just assuming so because you're biased. Way too biased, to the point where even if there was sufficient motive for Thalyssra introduced, you'd still reject it because of "but they're the same race! How could they!"

Holes. Too many holes.

[Torrasque]

When? I don't recall seeing it anywhere.

Lor'themar Theron: The Horde offers that to you, First Arcanist. Join us. The gates of Silvermoon stand open to you.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: On behalf of the nightborne, I accept your proposal. From this day forth, Suramar fights for the Horde.
Lor'themar Theron: Excellent! Lady Liadrin, please return to Orgrimmar and tell the warchief the good news.
Lady Liadrin: It will be my pleasure, Regent Lord. I will meet you in Silvermoon, champion.
Alleria tenses defiantly.
First Arcanist Thalyssra: Good luck, $p. As for me, I am going to test my skill in Ashenvale. For the Horde!.

Broadcast text at the end of the quest Thalyssra's Abode.