Blizz needs to pick a direction with the Horde **SPOILERS INSIDE**

[Jester Joe]

"All shall server me, in the end" Sounds more like a Old God phrase to be honest. And not a "For the Horde" at the end of the messege?

Not saying that the Horde cant bomb an Alliance city, but it really doestn sound very horde to me

Pretty sure Old Gods don't care about being served or not, especially in regards to "the end", since their end goal is to kill everyone off basically.

I'm pretty sure "All shall serve me, in the end" was actually a Lich King quote, or close enough.

[Pendraeg]

First of all, lel at your reading comprehension. How you could miss the "in WoD" bit of my post is beyond rational thought. Secondly, your understanding of the words "backstabbed" and "unprovoked" seems to be flawed, let alone your generic statement regarding the bombing of "innocent civilians".

Thirdly, the Horde was never depicted as "evil" and those times it came closer was meant to propel Garrosh's story arc. For the rest, since we indeed talk of gray and not of monolothic Lawful Good blandness (which I guess that can explain why several Alliance players can't actually see anything beyond the veil of "good" and "evil"):

You really don't have any concept of morality or history do you? Do you know what war crimes even are?
I play both factions, have a full roster of every class on each. I have to tell you, being a student of history, a lot of times playing through some of the Horde storylines makes me squirm a little. I mean, I get attacking tactical and strategic military targets.
Hellfire Peninsula? I'm totally there. Rock on.
Battle of Andorhal? Sure. (Though I object to Sylvannas' actions after the battle.)

But some of the actions of the Horde in other areas...dude... And you outlined many of them.

1) Ashenvale: this event was "grey" as you could get. The Horde were invaders and Garrosh was definitely pushing for war, sure, but the Orcs genuinely needed resources to survive the post-Cataclysm crisis. Plus, the post-Northrend situation between the factions was tense for multiple reasons and both factions held their share of blame for that;

Congratulations, you just described every war of aggression ever. Germany, circa 1930; Japan circa 1937; USSR circa 1945.
"You have resources. We need them. We think we're stronger than you, so we're going to take them."

2) Stonetalon: using this event when the very Warchief who eventually went mad executed the one responsible of that act is baffling as one could get, much like implying that the Horde was "evil" there while ignoring that little detail and somehow denying the existence of any hint of "grey" in such situation. But even ignoring that fact, the bombing of the Druid groove was caused by miscommunication and misunderstanding even by Krom'gar's part, who committed the mistake to trust a subordinate actually unworthy of any trust (which makes him more dumb than evil);

At the end of the day, it was still a WAR OF AGGRESSION. Kill all the Night Elves because we want the land. Then you add on top of that, the war crimes committed in the campaign.

3) Theramore: the assault on Theramore was justified as you could get and I laugh at people somehow pretending to this day that it wasn't. What made the event firmly black-gray was the method used to level the place, acknowledged as little more than a borderline rogue action of Garrosh no one knew anything about;

Justified? How? Garrosh wanted complete control over Kalimdor. Again, the Horde was the aggressor before the war crimes. Aside from that, within the concept of war crimes is the generally accepted interpretation of "command responsibility".

4) Gilneas: this was a campaign of conquest strongly desired by Garrosh and surely unprovoked. Still, there's definitely no "backstabbing" here, nor the Gilneans are the most innocent of people (Garrosh literally rallied the Forsaken against them by pointing out their past treacherous inclination). There's a degree of gray even in Sylvanas' decision to resort to the Blight and disobey Garrosh's orders, considered how Garrosh planned to use the Forsaken as meat-shields if she didn't.

Once again, War of Aggression and war crimes.

5) Southshore: the Forsaken won the Hillsbrad conflict by using the Blight but they were at odds with Southshore by ever. They simply won that conflict. And that's, again, grey as you could get.

I'll give you that Southshore and Tarren Mill is a reasonable gray area as far as the battle, but, again, the Horde again commits war crimes (biological weapons and targeting of civilians) to win the day.

Long story short, I'm not entirely sure if you know what "grey" means, because "grey" implies an inevitable degree of morally questionable actions. Unfortunately, most Alliance players shriek at the mere sight of these dreaded things or, even better, twist those actions into 100% justified acts because they can't conceive their faction to be anything but Lawful Good blandness.

Acting within the mutually accepted laws of war isn't lawful good blandness. It's not biting your opponent's ear off in a boxing match. It's not going into a village of poor farmers and killing anything "walking, crawling or growing" (My Lai Massacre, for those playing the home game).

[THEORACLE64]

With the Alpha info from Stormsong where Sylvanas has orcs and trolls massacre human civilians so she can raise them as Forsaken.

Now, I'm down with some Blood and Thunder, but attacking civilians isn't just dishonorable, it should be BENEATH the Horde because there's no challenge in massacring civilians.

I feel like we're just retreading the Garrosh plotline, which we've DONE already, it's circular, we're not going anywhere by playing musical chairs with our warchiefs.


Are we going to be evil conquerors with no scruples?

Or are we going to be societies of outcasts finding the balance between pragmatism and honor as we carve out a path in the world?


Honestly I'm fine either way I just want Blizz to decide what story they want to tell!

They're setting up for Sylvanas' end tbh. It seems like Saurfang will end up becoming the Warchief by the end of the expansion imo.

[Mehrunes]

You haven't studied a great deal of human history, then. It is dark, and brutal, and full of the types of people you have described - but it is also behind us, because people in general strive and work for a better future than the one they left behind. There will always be sadness, and need, and those who have plenty while others have less - but without higher ideals like honor such situations can never change. Without higher ideals no sentient race of beings would ever advance socially, technologically, or otherwise.

What do you mean it's "behind us"?

That's one major beef I have with this whole Saurfang thing. I mean yeah he disagrees with Sylvanas and her methods, but his lack of trying to solve what he sees as problem from within just makes him look like overreacting drama queen. What good is he locked in a prison cell relying solely on Anduin's good will? From what we've seen so far, he made two weak comments about disapproving Sylvanas' methods and once brushed off immediately gave up. It's not like Sylvanas freaking tried to assassinate him like Garrosh.

Because you, as a heretic, haven't seen the holy light of Blanduin the righteous. Saurfang has. Saurfang has moral high ground over your heretic ass.

I am 100% certain that 3/4 of the Horde leaders would listen and likely agree to all his concerns if he just presented them reasonably. Maybe if they all tried to pressure Sylvanas together, they would accomplish something. But no, the great warrior of the Horde concluded it's better to sulk in prison cell and leave all he fought for all his life cause he honor this honor that.

I'm not really sure about 3/4th. Even Eitrigg follows Sylvanas just fine. To the point he came with the idea to recruit the goddamn Iron Horde for her cause.

The important part is not killing people just to resurrect them

The entire point that was being discussed isn't the important part?

it's the insanity of the freshly raised dead willfully joining the Forsaken when they have every reason not to. And if said freshly raised dead are only used as cannon fodder during their frenzy (such as during SoO) and then discarded without a care as to what they choose to do afterwards, how's that different from the Lich King's modus operandi?

Name one Forsaken that was subject to the resurrection frenzy that remained in their ranks after it faded. And how's even what you're talking about any different from Lich King's MO? I dunno, maybe the part about eternal enslavement to his will.

And why is the Word of God suddenly so sacrosanct when the same people who preach it from every rooftop when it comes to Sylvanas turn around and deride Blizzard's other lore decisions at every turn? You dismiss the implication of a tweet, but the frenzy is a hastily conjured up explanation that also featured in a glorified tweet. I smell loads of double standards just because Sylvanas is involved.

You're conflating criticism of Blizzard's quality of writing with denying lore. That's not an argument. And yes, I do dismiss the implication of a tweet of someone who's not a Blizzard employee. Especially since there's nothing corroborating it. Try to figure out why. So I smell a bunch of nonsense on your part.

The brutal nature of reality can crush the body and the mind - holding onto something grand, and working to make it a real thing in your own life, does not meet the definition of "hiding behind a fluffy ideal." Cynicism is ultimately a paralytic, a regression back into a simpler modes of being. It's an understandable reaction to an absurd world, but it isn't something that should be lived in on a permanent basis.

Cynicism is looking at the world through the lens of general population rather than over-glorifying the few exceptions.

[ls-]

I wouldn't think they would bring back Thrall because Metzen retired and he doesn't have Doomhammer anymore - neither will we?

Well, after his retirement Metzen said that he'd keep playing Thrall. As for the Doomhammer, that's why I said that reformed Thrall should come back, not a wimp who can't get shit done.

Right now there's serious issues w/ the Horde's leaders:

• Sylvanas wants to make sure that the Horde survives because her forsaken depend on it, and she relies on them, however, she DOES NOT want to be the warchief
• Saurfang goes through yet another crisis in his life, he's reaching Brox2.0 levels of not wanting to live, he wants to fight so he can finally die. IMHO, such person SHOULD NOT be the warchief.
• Vol'jin is dead, but will become a Loa or something later in BfA.
• Rokhan... No idea what he's up to.
• Lor'themar doesn't want to be the warchief, heck, he doesn't even want to be the sole leader of Belves.
• Firepaw... See Rokhan.
• Baine is an Ally bootlicker. That's how he's rewritten in Cata release, if we got Baine from Cata beta, I wouldn't mind seeing him as the warchief, but right now... meh.
• Gallywix... No, just no.

So we have a roster of leaders who either CAN, but DO NOT want to lead the Horde, or SHOULD NOT lead the Horde.

If Blizz do something about Saurfang, so he doesn't go full retard w/ his wish for an honourable death, or rewrite Baine once again so he stops kissing asses, then yeah, they might be good candidates, but at this point I wish they brought Thrall back, but I'm not holding my breath either, because according to Christie Golden he's the embodiment of nontoxic masculinity and yadda yadda yadda.

I think we, as the Horde, are royally screwed atm >_>

[fenixazul]

I would love to see baine become insane and commit genocide.

for what? Blizzard would kill him in the next expansion and put another jerk in charge.

Seriously, that position must be cursed or something after Thrall left the Horde. Or you become corrupted or you simply die

[Mehrunes]

Nope it is a forsaken rare mob, named Moephus

I rechecked the picture earlier in this thread and it was indeed Forsaken. The weird helmet and the angle of the picture made his head look like one of a Troll at first glance for me. My bad.

People change. What she did then may or may not be what she's doing now. And I don't think Sylvanas, in her current state of character, gives a rat's ass about moral choices...given her own lack of morals.

She didn't have morals ever since Arthas resurrected her. She still didn't enslave undead in Cata. Even when 7th Legion marched into her lands. Why would she enslave undead in some town in Kul Tiras before it even joins the Alliance?

The land belonged to a 3rd party, so none of it was yours to begin with. We just did the good and moral thing by purged you from Cenarion lands, and hay we got some Azerite in the process, that's what I call a win win.

Horde outposts aren't Horde? Fascinating. Is the Alliance outpost in Silithus also not Alliance's? And Alliance has no authority to act in "Cenarion Circle's" name.

[Demona3]

Well, after his retirement Metzen said that he'd keep playing Thrall. As for the Doomhammer, that's why I said that reformed Thrall should come back, not a wimp who can't get shit done.

Right now there's serious issues w/ the Horde's leaders:

• Sylvanas wants to make sure that the Horde survives because her forsaken depend on it, and she relies on them, however, she DOES NOT want to be the warchief
• Saurfang goes through yet another crisis in his life, he's reaching Brox2.0 levels of not wanting to live, he wants to fight so he can finally die. IMHO, such person SHOULD NOT be the warchief.
• Vol'jin is dead, but will become a Loa or something later in BfA.
• Rokhan... No idea what he's up to.
• Lor'themar doesn't want to be the warchief, heck, he doesn't even want to be the sole leader of Belves.
• Firepaw... See Rokhan.
• Baine is an Ally bootlicker. That's how he's rewritten in Cata release, if we got Baine from Cata beta, I wouldn't mind seeing him as the warchief, but right now... meh.
• Gallywix... No, just no.

So we have a roster of leaders who either CAN, but DO NOT want to lead the Horde, or SHOULD NOT lead the Horde.

If Blizz do something about Saurfang, so he doesn't go full retard w/ his wish for an honourable death, or rewrite Baine once again so he stops kissing asses, then yeah, they might be good candidates, but at this point I wish they brought Thrall back, but I'm not holding my breath either, because according to Christie Golden he's the embodiment of nontoxic masculinity and yadda yadda yadda.

I think we, as the Horde, are royally screwed atm >_>

Fair enough, but I just can't stand Sylvanas in general. I just feel like the choices she's making will lead up to her either dying (again) or stepping down from warchief.

[ls-]

Fair enough, but I just can't stand Sylvanas in general. I just feel like the choices she's making will lead up to her either dying (again) or stepping down from warchief.

Well, she doesn't want to be one anyway

[Dagoth Ur]

I'm not really sure about 3/4th. Even Eitrigg follows Sylvanas just fine. To the point he came with the idea to recruit the goddamn Iron Horde for her cause.

Yeah you're probablly right, I just kinda threw that number to make a point. We are yet to learn how other leaders feel about Sylvanas. Still, I didn't mean they would forcefully try to remove her or refuse to follow her as warchief. Just for starters actually have a conversation with her.

What Saurfang the quasi philosopher is doing is just stupid.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yeah you're probablly right, I just kinda threw that number to make a point. We are yet to learn how other leaders feel about Sylvanas. Still, I didn't mean they would forcefully try to remove her or refuse to follow her as warchief. Just for starters actually have a conversation with her.

What Saurfang the quasi philosopher is doing is just stupid.

We know Lor'themar/ Rommath are pretty much behind her, I can't imagine Halduron wouldn't be either, Baine apparently is having the Grimtotem spread the blight. Gallywix doesn't give a shit, Thal is pretty loyal, the Trolls are too.

[Jastall]

It's almost as if *gasp* those people were subject to resurrection frenzy that the fucking ask a cdev was all about. And as if *double gasp* we never stuck around long enough to see it fade away. If you can't figure that out and have to feed your inability to accept word of god about a character that triggers you with abject ignorance just leave and go to fanfiction.net where you belong.

The frenzy that we never see on screen nor is even implied in-game, and thus feels hastily made-up when Blizzard realized that what they showed doesn't mesh with what they told us happened. Such amazing lore, much top-tier writing. This is no different than Afriasabi's ''drunk tweet'' about the retardedly convoluted nature of demons. Except because Sylvanas is involved suddenly the Word of God fixes everything and she's fully justified, move along folks nothing to see here, do not question anything.

Anyway, there's no Val'kyr in Stormsong, so it doesn't seem like the point is to rezz people. It really is just showing up and massacring civilians for the sheer lulz of it. Even trying to hand-have it away with a slash and burn operation (wouldn't hitting the fleet's ports or assorted strategic target be far more effective than burning random farms in the middle of nowhere?) it still has way too many instances of pointless brutality.

This is supposed to be the faction pride expansion, and to say I'm not feeling it is putting things mildly. I'm having a bit of a hard time being proud of the faction that has an uncaring zombie in charge, sees its oldest hero turned into a suicidal moron to make said zombie look good, and gleefully massacres helpless peasants like they were the sneering villains of some fantasy B-movie. Seems like the Horde can only win when it fights people who can't fight back or something.

[Ranger General Vader]

I like Sylvanas as a character and her pragmatic approach, however there is still much to be desired. I'm all for a darker horde, I just don't want another "more blood for the blood demon!" Garrosh type situation. The only reason I've tolerated her approach so far is because she's cunning and intelligent, with a clear long term vision.

Now what that vision exactly is I don't know and that could be good or bad. As it is right now it seems blizzard is trying to make her a dynamic character throughout this expansion and show her start to care about the horde. With this change I hope she understands the path she's going down and changes course to not be another Garrosh for the horde.

Personally I think Thrall just needs to set aside the whole idea that he can't help azeroth and take back the mantle with Saurfang as his #2. Sylvanas would make a hell of a ranger general/ special forces commander under them if they were able to motivate a love for the horde in her. Regardless, it was nice when the horde had just as much ammunition on the self righteous and hypocritical alliance.

TL;DR: Horde can be darker/ more pragmatic WITHOUT pulling a Garrosh 2.0

[Mehrunes]

Sure, but most everyone in-universe save the likes of the Legion disapproves of the wanton slaughter of civilians. Hell Taurajo was viewed as a bad move by most in the Alliance and it's a far lesser offense than what appears to transpire in Stormsong.

Taurajo isn't really as good an example as you think it is, because Baine himself justified the attack. And then exiled people who wanted revenge for it.

Also I'm not even sure the Kul'Tirans are actually aligned with the Alliance at that point in time and there are no Val'kyr in sight which makes the entire exercise look like an entirely pointless massacre for the sheer lulz of it which would be gruesome even for the WC1/2 Horde.

Kul Tiras is still an enemy of the Zandalari, the new allies of the Horde.

Thing is this is not attacking and razzing of a city, killing its military force and forcing the civilians to evacuate, this is rightout mass genocide of civilians.

What on earth is mass genocide of civilians? Wait, better yet, what's not-mass genocide? And what does the destruction of one town, where most of the population escapes due to swift reaction have to do with genocide? In other words, don't use terms you don't understand to write hyperbolic nonsense.

this is fucking sad, like legit last time this happened was SoO, and people called me crazy when i said "Back in cata it was obvious sylv was going to be the bad guy but her "Thot armor" protected her, making garrosh the big bad.

Except this is still nothing but your fantasies because we know that Blizzard wanted to make Garrosh evil from the get go. To the point the one Cataclysm quest where Garrosh doesn't act like a retard (and one that you IIRC used before to argue in favor of this fantasy of yours) was a result of one of the devs not getting the memo. In regards to development that started back in WotLK.

It's a strategic target, yes; but its destruction is pursued with excessive force.

There's no kill like an overkill is basically the Forsaken war doctrine. And the only thing that sees to work on Alliance. When Garrosh went full nuclear on them it ended with peace and Alliance ceding territory. But when the Alliance isn't regularly beaten into submission they pull Stormheims.

[Ravingmad]

Oh yeah man, the Helya idea is awesome.

I should have coloured what I said a little more - I like Sylvanas' character as she has an interesting story, but I dislike the character and actions of Sylvanas. She's actually the last bastion of very interesting writing that Blizz has produced and continued.

I see Garrosh 2.0 in Sylvanas.

I liked the Garrosh story. Im not saying he was "right" or anything, but the story his ideas/obsession created was nice (civil war, Siege of Orgrimmar, etc).

[Mehrunes]

wow i love your work here
competetly ignoring the fact that garrosh collected civilian refugees and slaughtered them in torture and genocide and "nah thats fine" then claim the alliance commited genocide on the defias? They were not civilians when they started rioting, killing, and producing a ship to destroy stormwind.

I am putting you on ignore cause this level of fact bending and fanon is horrid.

Given your constant yapping about genocide, by this metric you should put yourself on ignore too.

You do realize the mana bomb had no mention of destroying souls in tides of war?

I have no idea what's with this claim appearing all over the place in the last few days. Oh, well, I guess it still beats people claiming the mana bomb would have destroyed the entirety of Kalmidor if it wasn't for Rhonin or that it destroyed every Theramore in multiverse.

no, kirin tor was alliance when rhonin and the council chooses to help theramore, because they thought that the horde attack was injustified.
you know why her forces were marching on the barrens right? because she was alliance and as a member of the alliance she had to help the nelfs that were being invaded by garrosh, in other words, the horde.or at least that what the alliance thinking, i know that it was the twillight hammer the ones who did it but it seems like the alliance blamed garrosh for an "unprovoked" attack.

They weren't. Jaina herself admitted asking their help would require them breaking their neutrality when she was first suggested to reach out to Dalaran.

[cparle87]

ok?? Garrosh removed a military target that was trying to invade the Barrens and Durotar. Then everyone removed Garrosh.??? so... what does she have against the current horde? Next time she shouldn't say she is "neutral" and actually be acting as a forward invasion point for the Alliance. Theramore was a good lesson for her. Let's see if she learns this time in Kul'tiras. If Kul'tiras wasn't one of the max level zones for content I would say Sylvanas should bomb that too and kill the rest of Jaina's family and friends.

I agree with everything you're saying, about Theramore being a military target, the forward point for Alliance incursions, and such. But using the focusing iris to ramp up the bomb was too much. We saw from BC that they could destroy the populations of cities. Garrosh wanted a crater.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize the mana bomb had no mention of destroying souls in tides of war?

It mentioned it was so powerful that it warped reality in the area, which resulted in people being turned into those horrible mana dust statues that quickly crumbled. I think the soul thing was revealed later. Watching your bodyguard and student, both your friends, crumble into dust when you touch them would be horribly traumatizing, on top of already great trauma.

[Zulkhan]

Oh I see so everthing else doesn't count because it didn't happen in WoD? Lol. Stopped reading here, sorry you posted everything for nothing.
Next time you might not want to start with personal insults if you want your opinion to be red or acknowledged.

So you get offended over me stating a fact and that fact being that you failed to understand the painfully obvious meaning of my post, then somehow complain that "oh so non-WoD stuff doesn't count then eeeeh?" even though I addressed it just fine (and despite the fact that I had no obligation to do so, since you, again, completely failed to understand a simple sentence) but somehow that doesn't count as well since you've got offended over me commenting your reading comprehension, which it can't definitely be the best around here if you somehow managed to not understand what the other poster commenting before you did just fine.

You really don't have any concept of morality or history do you? Do you know what war crimes even are?

Oh I wonder if you do.

Congratulations, you just described every war of aggression ever. Germany, circa 1930; Japan circa 1937; USSR circa 1945.
"You have resources. We need them. We think we're stronger than you, so we're going to take them."

And? A "war of aggression" is the epitome of evil now? And I addressed the fact that Garrosh indeed pushed for war. However, is also true that the Orcs were facing survival issues and the situation between the factions was tense after several events occurred in Northrend, consequently making diplomatic solutions harder to achieve. Garrosh may have pulled the trigger and he fucking enjoyed doing so, no doubt about that, but the moment the Cataclysm hit and all its issues were mixed with all the previously built tension, war became, if not the only, at least the easier and expected option, between two factions that constantly exchanged blows in skirmishies of all kinds.

At the end of the day, it was still a WAR OF AGGRESSION. Kill all the Night Elves because we want the land. Then you add on top of that, the war crimes committed in the campaign.

And (again)? You can shout "War of aggression" for all eternity but consider it the absolute epitome of "evil" without considering the actual situation and circumstances is inherently flawed. About the war crimes, there were no "war crimes" apart those committed by Krom'gar himself, something for which he was promtly executed.

Justified? How? Garrosh wanted complete control over Kalimdor. Again, the Horde was the aggressor before the war crimes. Aside from that, within the concept of war crimes is the generally accepted interpretation of "command responsibility".

Assault against Theramore. Garrosh's ambitions over Kalimdor. Guess what, one can exist without the other, because the act of conquering Theramore itself was indeed valid, considered its active and threatening participation in the war during Cataclysm times. It was a legit military target fucking Jaina Proudmoore acknowledged as such.

Also, before you keep spamming "war crimes" again, starting a war is not a "war crime".

I'll give you that Southshore and Tarren Mill is a reasonable gray area as far as the battle, but, again, the Horde again commits war crimes (biological weapons and targeting of civilians) to win the day.

Context be damned, I guess. The usage of biological weapons is considered a war crime in our world, not Azeroth, and the reason this is the case for us is because biological weapons are usually unstable, lack a circumscribable target zone and tend to kill indiscriminately. The Forsaken's Blight, however, does not possess these characteristics and being of chemical nature per se is not a war crime. Of course, this without even considering the fact that there's no "international laws" in a fantasy setting like Warcraft.

Regarding civilian casualties, they've never been considered a "war crime" as long these are collateral damage while attempting to subdue a valid military target, something Southshore has always been. Blighting the place was no better or worse than firebombing Taurajo (yes, the general left a hole to let the civilians escape but mostly because he was an idealistic outlier, his decision was one several of his superiors disagreed with, stating he was "wasting a chance" to get some prisoners).

Acting within the mutually accepted laws of war isn't lawful good blandness. It's not biting your opponent's ear off in a boxing match. It's not going into a village of poor farmers and killing anything "walking, crawling or growing" (My Lai Massacre, for those playing the home game).

The "mutually accepted laws" are actual laws approved and handled in our world, by organizations that don't exist in Azeroth. The concept of "war crime" in Warcraft is also considerably vague and not necessarily in par with our own. Just read the War Crimes novel to see what I mean.

[Dagoth Ur]

We know Lor'themar/ Rommath are pretty much behind her, I can't imagine Halduron wouldn't be either, Baine apparently is having the Grimtotem spread the blight. Gallywix doesn't give a shit, Thal is pretty loyal, the Trolls are too.

Because they're acting like adults fortunately. I mean even if you don't agree with your warchief's methods personally it's still better to keep it in the house, even more so since you're in the middle of the world war.

My point was that Saurfang is behaving like none in the Horde would understand his concerns which is simply not true. And Sylvanas is not some unreasonable tyrant, the mere fact that she was willing to even discuss his objections with him proves otherwise.

[Mehrunes]

First of all, lel at your reading comprehension. How you could miss the "in WoD" bit of my post is beyond rational thought.

One word that explains it all: Alliance.

Oh I see so everthing else doesn't count because it didn't happen in WoD? Lol. Stopped reading here, sorry you posted everything for nothing.
Next time you might not want to start with personal insults if you want your opinion to be red or acknowledged.

When the point you're replying to was a comparison of how things were in WoD to how they are in BfA things outside of WoD and BfA indeed do not count. I'm not sure how that's complicated.

Congratulations, you just described every war of aggression ever. Germany, circa 1930; Japan circa 1937; USSR circa 1945.
"You have resources. We need them. We think we're stronger than you, so we're going to take them."

The difference being that Night Elves owed the Horde resources because unilaterally breaking a trade treaty doesn't actually remove your obligations set by said treaty.

Justified? How? Garrosh wanted complete control over Kalimdor. Again, the Horde was the aggressor before the war crimes. Aside from that, within the concept of war crimes is the generally accepted interpretation of "command responsibility".

How? I dunno, perhaps it was because Theramore's troops were leading the charge in Alliance offensive of Horde-controlled central Kalimdor. Or perhaps because Theramore was the staging ground for reinforcements from EK. One of the two.

I'll give you that Southshore and Tarren Mill is a reasonable gray area as far as the battle, but, again, the Horde again commits war crimes (biological weapons and targeting of civilians) to win the day.

Blight is a chemical weapon. And do show the Azerothian treaty forbidding it.

Acting within the mutually accepted laws of war isn't lawful good blandness. It's not biting your opponent's ear off in a boxing match. It's not going into a village of poor farmers and killing anything "walking, crawling or growing" (My Lai Massacre, for those playing the home game).

And pray tell, when did the Alliance and the Horde mutually accept a set rules of war?

The frenzy that we never see on screen nor is even implied in-game, and thus feels hastily made-up when Blizzard realized that what they showed doesn't mesh with what they told us happened. Such amazing lore, much top-tier writing. This is no different than Afriasabi's ''drunk tweet'' about the retardedly convoluted nature of demons.

It didn't mesh with what they told us happened? But that is where they told us what happened. So is your brilliant point that the ask a cdev reply doesn't mesh with itself? Fascinating. And we don't see plenty of things happening in the game. If you have problem with that, Warcraft isn't for you.

Except because Sylvanas is involved suddenly the Word of God fixes everything and she's fully justified, move along folks nothing to see here, do not question anything.

Unless you're able to quote me on saying the nature of demons isn't canon, get lost with your petulant straw-man.