Any Good ARPG's?

[Arrashi]

Salt and sanctuary is really nice ARPG.

[Cyclone Jack]

Wolcen isn't bad, but its still early in development, and they are still adding features and making sweeping changes. It does have an interesting passive skill tree that looks somewhat inspired by PoE, but with their own twist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6mOF6vV424). The current tree is limited to mostly just the two inner rings, and they are slowly adding new sections to the 3rd ring while balancing the inner rings each patch. They also just recently added pistols, though I haven't messed with them too much. What they have is nice, and it's somewhat fun, but like I said, they've still got a long ways to go.

Will it beat PoE? I don't think so, but I don't think it needs to. It is different enough to stand on its own. Besides, PoE has added so much content to their game that it'll be difficult for any ARPG to compete with it head-to-head. As for D3, every ARPG is better than D3, IMO.

[jackofwind]

Just buy Champions of Norrath, grab some buddies and a couch, and mash the X button to victory.

[Aliven]

I know that - but who cares - it is a great game.

Why pigeonhole yourself with a certain niche of the RPG spectrum. I mean it is basically Diablo or bust anyway.

I mean when I am looking for a game - at first I will indeed set my goal for a certain type of game. But if during my browsing for said type of game... I come across of another game that I was not searching for specifically but got my interest..... Who would I pass it over, just because it was not the type of game I was searching for?

You should atleast be happy that I did not post about FIFA or Counterstrike or something which has no connection the RPG spectrum at all. :P

Because this topic is about arpg. Nobody is saying to pigeonhole into something.

And dont take it too personally.

[LaserChild9]

TL2 got it's plug pulled didnt it?
I heard the servers were going down.

I haven't heard that but then again, I haven't been keeping up with Torchlight 2 stuff so it may be true. Even if it is, it can be played offline so still worth a play if you haven't played it yet.

[endersblade]

What do you think about Wolcen ? Anyone play ?

Can beat POE or D3

For what is currently available, Wolcen is pretty fun. The fact you can drop your spec and make another on a whim is really nice, you can test things out as you like. One character can basically be any and all builds any time you want. The experience your spells and abilities earn stick with you through respecs, so go hog wild.

That said, right now this game can't even hold a candle to PoE or even D3 for that matter. It's basically just a demo right now, though it has massive potential.

[The Oblivion]

Just buy Champions of Norrath, grab some buddies and a couch, and mash the X button to victory.

so badly do i want a norrath or return to arms HD update

[Vaelorian]

Because this topic is about arpg. Nobody is saying to pigeonhole into something.

And dont take it too personally.

I am not, like at all. This topic is indeed ARPG. With pigeonhole I mean that it would be dumb to act like this:"Ok guys I know of a great game but I am not allowed to say it because it is a different type of RPG."

[jackofwind]

so badly do i want a norrath or return to arms HD update

Absolutely, I'd love to see it happen. Those games still sell for crazy amounts used along with FF3 cartridges (if you can find them).

[SirCowdog]

Grim Dawn is imo the best ARPG currently.

Its also not quite what Im looking for, but its still the best. Diablo 2 or 3 comes after that.

Im giving PoE a chance again atm since 2013, but nothing makes me want to change my POV's from it over the years. Its still clunky designed, bad systems and has too much filter pointless things to appeal to a hard-core crowd, even if the systems dont make sense.

That's my issue with POE. You can get decently far in the game just screwing around. But eventually you reach a point where the difficulty makes a few things abundantly clear:

1) Your filthy-casul build isn't going to work.
2) You have to start over and research a real build.
3) You have to farm like it's a chinese/korean MMO to make that build work optimally.
4) Many top builds don't even work until late-game with the correct gear.

It's not really that POE is a bad game. In a lot of ways it's superior to almost every other Diablo-style game available. But it's clearly a game designed to cater to high-end basement dwellers who have been playing since beta. Which is fine. It's just not the game for everyone.

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As for D3, every ARPG is better than D3, IMO.

D3 seasonal hardcore play still has a LOT of value. I just wish D3 would adopt POE's race/league system. Also, D3 ladder REALLY needs to be restricted to Solo-Self-Found only. The current "solo" ladder is a joke, since the only way to reach the top is to be boosted by a team of people funneling gear and resources to you.

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I haven't heard that but then again, I haven't been keeping up with Torchlight 2 stuff so it may be true. Even if it is, it can be played offline so still worth a play if you haven't played it yet.

Oh yeah, and the modding scene for TL2 is AMAZING!(or at least it was last time I played a couple years ago)

[Coldkil]

What do you think about Wolcen ? Anyone play ?

Can beat POE or D3

I bought it some time ago, stopped playing then restarted recently. The progress is definitely there, but the road is still long. Very visually pleasing, interesting skill/class system. Still a little barebone, but it's expected from an EA.

Don't expect to buy it and find a full fleshed game. The premises and current development are pretty good.

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That's my issue with POE. You can get decently far in the game just screwing around. But eventually you reach a point where the difficulty makes a few things abundantly clear:

1) Your filthy-casul build isn't going to work.
2) You have to start over and research a real build.
3) You have to farm like it's a chinese/korean MMO to make that build work optimally.
4) Many top builds don't even work until late-game with the correct gear.

It's not really that POE is a bad game. In a lot of ways it's superior to almost every other Diablo-style game available. But it's clearly a game designed to cater to high-end basement dwellers who have been playing since beta. Which is fine. It's just not the game for everyone.

More than difficulty is just:
a) the fact people don't really know what they're doing and fall into noob traps
b) any decent build can do nearly everything in game; speed/challenge varies greatly depending on your build
c) the whole game is balanced around trading and there are a lot more design decisions that just aren't aimed towards casual play

I'm not an hardcore player - i never traded, and now i only play SSF. I played enough to understand the base game mechanics (which are hidden under a lot of choices but it boils down to the same old simple stuff) and now i can "safely" play any build i can concieve.

The point is: what you want from it? If you aim to perfect optimized gameplay and pure minmaxing, then you're going to have an hard time. Effort is very much rewarded - though the amount needed is great and as you said it's not for everyone.

Personally, i think a game like PoE is better played as "i'll try this setup and see how far i can get". Until you're going around without defensive nodes (which is basically what everyone tends to do the first times) everyone can get to mapping. Then there are other issues which actually all PoE players are complaining about (especially the availability of maps in later tiers and the revamp of many iunderutilized skills, both things GGG is apparently tackling).

The good of PoE doesn't actually come stricytly from gameplay - it comes from the fact that the game is fair (though difficult) and GGG is always on top of it with great communication towards players. Something most games nowadays simply don't have as devs see players as cattle from which they need to milk out money.

[SirCowdog]

I bought it some time ago, stopped playing then restarted recently. The progress is definitely there, but the road is still long. Very visually pleasing, interesting skill/class system. Still a little barebone, but it's expected from an EA.

Don't expect to buy it and find a full fleshed game. The premises and current development are pretty good.

I've been keeping an eye on Wolcen. I'm burned out on seasonal Diablo 3, and POE just couldn't hold my interest. I REALLY hope it turns out to be worthwhile. The potential is definitely there.

The good of PoE doesn't actually come stricytly from gameplay - it comes from the fact that the game is fair (though difficult) and GGG is always on top of it with great communication towards players. Something most games nowadays simply don't have as devs see players as cattle from which they need to milk out money.

I agree. POE has come a LONG way since beta. The recent overhaul to the story and mapping parts of the game was a massive improvement that they didn't have to do. Added to the ridiculously good F2P model they've got, it makes POE one of the best ARPGs we've ever seen.

I really don't understand why Blizzard hasn't copied many of their ideas and applied them to D3. I know development on D3 is more or less done, so maybe that's it? There's also the rumors of D4 floating around. But it's Blizzard, so who the hell REALLY knows.

[Coldkil]

I agree. POE has come a LONG way since beta. The recent overhaul to the story and mapping parts of the game was a massive improvement that they didn't have to do. Added to the ridiculously good F2P model they've got, it makes POE one of the best ARPGs we've ever seen.

I really don't understand why Blizzard hasn't copied many of their ideas and applied them to D3. I know development on D3 is more or less done, so maybe that's it? There's also the rumors of D4 floating around. But it's Blizzard, so who the hell REALLY knows.

I expect something on the sort to happen with next Diablo game (which is clearly in development) - granted, we don't konw ANYTHING about it; but i'm kinda sure they're going really cautious on it to avoid the D3 shitfest that basically brought the franchise to an abysmal state.

D3 has some major design faults that ended making the game much worse than the expectation - that basically gutted replayabilty to a great degree:

- not enough control on builds and not enough (illusion of) choice. You don't feel tied to your character, because you're not choosing what to do with it. You have some skills, but you're just using the one that does more damage.

- items defining builds. It should be the opposite (tied to point above); when you have a certain and clear better choice on itemization, you will just go for the best build. "meta" will always exist in any game, the point is that it's way too relevant. You should be able to create a build and then find stuff to support it, not the opposite.

- everything's just too fast. Power creep to the extreme, leveling could be just removed, you get a starter set, you get to "high" GR very fast and then you're left with gem/paragon leveling. Burining through the entire game in hours makes everything that's not GR basically obsolete.

- endgame (lack of) structure. GRs are literally random dungeons for the sake of doing random dungeons. There are no objectives or goal to pursue, no new things to farm, and while season journey is a definitely nice addition it's way too small of a goal (and given the power creep again a matter of hours before completion).

All this things are dealt with in PoE - meta exists but it's not prominent due to the sheer amount of build possibilites; build comes before itemization and this makes room for some build-enabling items that reward an initially increased difficulty/effort; endgame mapping has a final goal to pursue and additional mechanics BUT that doesn't mean that you cannot play your build; it takes more time to get everything, but this is balanced with a constant progression because your build grows with your character and over time - before you find yourself "out of stuff to do" it takes much more time.

And i didn't talk about AH/trading. I don't think they're required, but a trading system complements well a looting game when drops/availability are balanced on that and trading is limited some way (limited amount of trades per item, soulbound only stuff) so trading doesn't become a better way to gear yourself than actually playing.

With this i'm not saying PoE is perfect; for example the current league is basically a miss - some new nice stuff but the central crafting system and capture mechaincs are just bad (monsters die too fast and you cannot capture them, crafting recipes are basically inferior to anything else thus useless). But the fact is that GGG isn't afraid to try new stuff, listens to players and actually makes well received mechanics part of the "base game", while scrapping the ones that didn't work.

Basically PoE started with a good premise and eveolved a lot over time. D3 started bad and everything after that was just damage control.

[SirCowdog]

I expect something on the sort to happen with next Diablo game (which is clearly in development) - granted, we don't konw ANYTHING about it; but i'm kinda sure they're going really cautious on it to avoid the D3 shitfest that basically brought the franchise to an abysmal state.

Base D3 was, as you said, a shitfest. But I felt that Reaper of Souls really fixed a LOT, and made the game overall pretty good. I don't really understand much of the hate directed at the game, but that might have to do with the simple fact that I ONLY play hardcore seasonal. I don't think D3 has much value as a non-hardcore game. There's zero challenge, no risk, and nothing but grind. HC has a lot of that too, but with the added risk of losing your character if you screw up and get lazy. I don't know, seems like it adds the edge to keep things interesting.

On a related note: POE handles hardcore better, and even normal mode carries a sense of risk, since each time you die you lose a chunk of experience that's kind of annoying to acquire in the higher levels.

- items defining builds. It should be the opposite (tied to point above); when you have a certain and clear better choice on itemization, you will just go for the best build. "meta" will always exist in any game, the point is that it's way too relevant. You should be able to create a build and then find stuff to support it, not the opposite.

See...I've read PLENTY of PoE guides that are centered around very specific pieces of gear. It's not all builds, of course. So what you just wrote generally remains true: The build is enhanced by the gear, not defined by it.

- everything's just too fast. Power creep to the extreme, leveling could be just removed, you get a starter set, you get to "high" GR very fast and then you're left with gem/paragon leveling. Burining through the entire game in hours makes everything that's not GR basically obsolete.


- endgame (lack of) structure. GRs are literally random dungeons for the sake of doing random dungeons. There are no objectives or goal to pursue, no new things to farm, and while season journey is a definitely nice addition it's way too small of a goal (and given the power creep again a matter of hours before completion).

I agree about the leveling. But it's fairly painless once you get established.

I also agree about the farming. This is something POE has a problem with as well. But it's partially mitigated by the Map system. Just one more thing that D3 should REALLY steal from POE.

Imagine if GRs had random mutators you could activate via the cube or something! Instead of just GR+1 to infinity, suddenly enemies are doing random, nasty, difficulty-multiplying effects!

And i didn't talk about AH/trading. I don't think they're required, but a trading system complements well a looting game when drops/availability are balanced on that and trading is limited some way (limited amount of trades per item, soulbound only stuff) so trading doesn't become a better way to gear yourself than actually playing.

I didn't hate the AH for diablo as much as most people, but then again I didn't use it much either. But it was definitely completely out of control, since it was clearly designed to be a tool to make Blizzard money at the cost of the game's enjoyability. The entire rest of the game was bent around forcing you into using it. Everything from the difficulty curve going into Inferno to drop rates.

I think a market for Diablo 3 could still work, but it would need to be centered around something other than gold. POE nails this by not having currency. Trade items for items. I understand that POE recently added a market system, but it only notifies other players who then have to join your game and trade with you directly? I haven't looked into the details. Previously trading in POE was done via 3rd party sites, which was shady and unreliable.

Mostly I REALLY hope Blizzard does what Blizzard does best for D4: Copy the best things from other games and incorporate it all into their own version, with added polish.

[Coldkil]

See...I've read PLENTY of PoE guides that are centered around very specific pieces of gear. It's not all builds, of course. So what you just wrote generally remains true: The build is enhanced by the gear, not defined by it.

Yes, but nearly all of them require a pretty good time/effort investment - basically, until you have already an established foothold in game (and especially in standard league where economy is only fucked) you're simply not going to get anywhere near these items, especially if you're not trading. They're strong (or the strongest) but they are basically payoff at this point.

The thing is that there are fully functional farming builds that are basically just yellows. Build enabling items are an "exception" - most of uniques give either pure/broad defensive/offensive buffs, and many others give big bonuses for specific builds but that are not required to make the build work.

There are some Facebreakers, but not all uniques are Facebreakers

[anaxie]

Fate Excella

[Mirishka]

Hey.

I'm looking for a Game where the entire screen is filled with enemies that you kill with massive AoE attacks, But i don't want this game to be Either PoE or Diablo 3, Are there any other Good ARPGs out there, other than those 2?

Its not the overhead/isometric camera style kind of game, but Warframe definitely meets the 'huge numbers of enemies that you kill with ridiculous AoE spells and weapons' criteria, and there's a lot of customization and light-RPG features too.

And it does not hold your hand at all. Like, at all.

[LaserChild9]

Oh yeah, and the modding scene for TL2 is AMAZING!(or at least it was last time I played a couple years ago)

Yeah last time I played there were so many modded classes it was unreal.

[SirCowdog]

Its not the overhead/isometric camera style kind of game, but Warframe definitely meets the 'huge numbers of enemies that you kill with ridiculous AoE spells and weapons' criteria, and there's a lot of customization and light-RPG features too.

And it does not hold your hand at all. Like, at all.

That game requires reading a 3rd party wiki page just to understand anything past the basic "aim gun and fire" mechanic. :/

Dark Souls is more intuitive than Warframe, FFS.

[Nalam the Venom]

Who or what Necro'd this thread? xD