Garrosh to Sylvanas, there really isn't much difference.

[Zulkhan]

Imagine that Tyrande was not in Suramar. All these "nightborne joined the horde because of Tyrande. I HATE HER" would have turned to "nightborne joined the horde because of blizzard. I HATE BLIZZ".

What's that even supposed to mean? Tyrande's behavior may have pushed Nightborne into the Horde but her absence would have achieved the same result. Hence, it would still be Tyrande's fault, not of Rothschild Blizzard controlling the World of Warcraft from their top-secret seat of power beneath the Maelstrom.

[Koraggar]

Cool. Care to point out where she at least alluded to that?

In Silverpine she says "In death we are reborn" which is pretty much the exact opposite of "what joy is there in this curse". In War Crimes she monologues about raising Vereesa and Rhonin as a benevolent thing.

And Sylvanas isn't the only one who doesn't view undeath as a curse, by the by.

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Waging war against enemy faction, one that attacked the Warchief of the Horde in the middle of a Legion invasion is super evil for sure..

I'm not disappointed because she is warring with the Alliance, I'm disappointed because Blizzard is doing a crap job of showing vs telling.

At first glance the Stormsong attack is as mustache-twirly as it gets. The commands, in particular, seem out of character.

[sighy]

In Silverpine she says "In death we are reborn" which is pretty much the exact opposite of "what joy is there in this curse". In War Crimes she monologues about raising Vereesa and Rhonin as a benevolent thing.

And Sylvanas isn't the only one who doesn't view undeath as a curse, by the by.

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I'm not disappointed because she is warring with the Alliance, I'm disappointed because Blizzard is doing a crap job of showing vs telling.

At first glance the Stormsong attack is as mustache-twirly as it gets. The commands, in particular, seem out of character.

Well concidering she was in afterlife twice and both times it realy raly sucked. Keeping in mind she has Valks maintaining her body so that it doesn't decmopose.


Changing a single line in a single item drop takes like 3 minutes including finding it in the code so it might be one of the misdirection so we don't spoil scenarios. Actually it would be pretty ammusing, if they changed the commands into Orcish script and alliance character couldn't read it. (because let's face it, why the hell would Horde dispatch orders in COMMON?)

[Leodric]

In Silverpine she says "In death we are reborn" which is pretty much the exact opposite of "what joy is there in this curse". In War Crimes she monologues about raising Vereesa and Rhonin as a benevolent thing.

And Sylvanas isn't the only one who doesn't view undeath as a curse, by the by.

This has to be the biggest retcon from Blizzard then so far. I mean when she betrayed Arthas the first time and poisoned him she said something in the lines of "it's not even a fraction of the agony you caused me", clearly implying ressing her back and making her UD is not something she enjoyed. She is constantly saying what torment it is. I mean yes, her saying "In death we are reborn" does not mean she is not suffering right?

As many times Blizzard had to do it since the Forsaken are a playable race, but who in their right mind would want to have that curse?

[Koraggar]

Changing a single line in a single item drop takes like 3 minutes including finding it in the code so it might be one of the misdirection so we don't spoil scenarios. Actually it would be pretty ammusing, if they changed the commands into Orcish script and alliance character couldn't read it. (because let's face it, why the hell would Horde dispatch orders in COMMON?)

Yeah, they could change it, but I would rather whine about it now than be told "well why didn't you say something sooner?" when it goes live.

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This has to be the biggest retcon from Blizzard then so far. I mean when she betrayed Arthas the first time and poisoned him she said something in the lines of "it's not even a fraction of the agony you caused me", clearly implying ressing her back and making her UD is not something she enjoyed. She is constantly saying what torment it is. I mean yes, her saying "In death we are reborn" does not mean she is not suffering right?

It's not a retcon. We've seen characters who like being undead since... wc3? In Vanilla we had NPC's who were calling it an "elevated state of existence" and in the Forsaken starting zone you see plenty of Forsaken who are cool with it. Hell, the Cult of the Damned was a living organization that actively ASPIRED to undeath.

Characters can change their point of view when given new information or experiences, Sylvanas changing her position isn't a retcon, it's her being a dynamic character.

As many times Blizzard had to do it since the Forsaken are a playable race, but who in their right mind would want to have that curse?

idk, why do humans want to have the curse of flesh?

[sighy]

This has to be the biggest retcon from Blizzard then so far. I mean when she betrayed Arthas the first time and poisoned him she said something in the lines of "it's not even a fraction of the agony you caused me", clearly implying ressing her back and making her UD is not something she enjoyed. She is constantly saying what torment it is. I mean yes, her saying "In death we are reborn" does not mean she is not suffering right?

As many times Blizzard had to do it since the Forsaken are a playable race, but who in their right mind would want to have that curse?

She probably found out the afterlife is a lot worse than undeath. Or she could have been referring to the little fact he was so pissed he tortured her soul and pretty much invented a new type of udead so that she could suffer even more. That may have been remedied by the Valks, when they dragged her back from hell and restored her body.

[Leodric]

IT'S NOT A RETCON. We've seen characters who like being undead since... wc3? In Vanilla we had NPC's who were calling it an "elevated state of existence" and in the Forsaken starting zone you see plenty of Forsaken who are cool with it. Hell, the Cult of the Damned was a living organization that actively ASPIRED to undeath.

Characters can change their point of view when given new information or experiences, Sylvanas changing her position isn't a retcon, it's her being a dynamic character.

The cult is/was consisting of power hungry humans, so taking them as an example isn't the best, hence why I said in their right mind. Also of course you would see it there, as I've stated Blizzard has to do it since it's a playable race. I am not arguing it's not canon that some are ok with it, but it's still bullshit that they have changed it to "now she likes/accepts it", since the forsakens whole purpose was to fuck with the lich king. Also from someone crying the whole time what an agony it is and what a torment to changing her position cause she is a dynamic character is just bad writing. They could have done it so much better.

idk, why do humans want to have the curse of flesh?

I would rather take that curse (able to feel the pleasures of life, not decomposing like a rotten piece of meat) over the curse of the forsaken, any day.

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She probably found out the afterlife is a lot worse than undeath. Or she could have been referring to the little fact he was so pissed he tortured her soul and pretty much invented a new type of udead so that she could suffer even more. That may have been remedied by the Valks, when they dragged her back from hell and restored her body.

Yep, that's understandable then. The fear of having it way worse, that's a relateable reason, but that does not make it her liking that curse to an extent which she would want others to have it, especially people she helds dear, right?

[Sunderella]

Uhh... guys?

that would be an awesome Forsaken allied race: Roasted Forsaken!

[Mehrunes]

This has to be the biggest retcon from Blizzard then so far. I mean when she betrayed Arthas the first time and poisoned him she said something in the lines of "it's not even a fraction of the agony you caused me", clearly implying ressing her back and making her UD is not something she enjoyed. She is constantly saying what torment it is. I mean yes, her saying "In death we are reborn" does not mean she is not suffering right?

As many times Blizzard had to do it since the Forsaken are a playable race, but who in their right mind would want to have that curse?

First of all, Arthas did everything he could to torment Sylvanas as much as he could because she pissed him off. He continued to do so even after she was already resurrected. Secondly, you're conflating a retcon with character development.

[sighy]

The cult is/was consisting of power hungry humans, so taking them as an example isn't the best, hence why I said in their right mind. Also of course you would see it there, as I've stated Blizzard has to do it since it's a playable race. I am not arguing it's not canon that some are ok with it, but it's still bullshit that they have changed it to "now she likes/accepts it", since the forsakens whole purpose was to fuck with the lich king. Also from someone crying the whole time what an agony it is and what a torment to changing her position cause she is a dynamic character is just bad writing. They could have done it so much better.



I would rather take that curse (able to feel the pleasures of life, not decomposing like a rotten piece of meat) over the curse of the forsaken, any day.

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Yep, that's understandable then. The fear of having it way worse, that's a relateable reason, but that does not make it her liking that curse to an extent which she would want others to have it, especially people she helds dear, right?

If you knew that afterlife is way worse than undeath wouldn't you want to save the people you hold dear from that fate?

[Powerogue]

"Isn't it obvious, warchief? I serve the Horde."

Would she betray the horde if it came down to a choice between her ambitions to control Lordaeron for the forsaken and conquer death itself and the best interests of the horde? We don't know. I feel like this is the expansion where we'll find out, one way or the other.

[omeomorfismo]

This has to be the biggest retcon from Blizzard then so far. I mean when she betrayed Arthas the first time and poisoned him she said something in the lines of "it's not even a fraction of the agony you caused me", clearly implying ressing her back and making her UD is not something she enjoyed. She is constantly saying what torment it is. I mean yes, her saying "In death we are reborn" does not mean she is not suffering right?

As many times Blizzard had to do it since the Forsaken are a playable race, but who in their right mind would want to have that curse?

isnt like that arthas tortured her souls and corpse in a basically rape allegory, then forced her to genocide elves as a selfconscious slave...

[Leodric]

If you knew that afterlife is way worse than undeath wouldn't you want to save the people you hold dear from that fate?

But it's not implied that all who die go to the same place. As far as I've understood that's what she thinks the forsaken have to go to. There's definitly a "Heaven" in Warcraft, implied by the quest in WotlK where you helped that Paladin out as far as I can remember.

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isnt like that arthas tortured her souls and corpse in a basically rape allegory, then forced her to genocide elves as a selfconscious slave...

technically speaking it was ner'zhul, when he lost power she regained control over herself again to betray him.

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"Isn't it obvious, warchief? I serve the Horde."

Would she betray the horde if it came down to a choice between her ambitions to control Lordaeron for the forsaken and conquer death itself and the best interests of the horde? We don't know. I feel like this is the expansion where we'll find out, one way or the other.

I don't think she gives a damn about lordaeron herself or the Horde, shes cunning and lied before for her goals. Her priority is not to die and go to hell. By the way what I don't like about this example from Garrosh calling her that is, that he totally doesn't care she lost many forsaken fighting against Gilneas, imagining myself in her shoes I would have ressed them too for the sole purpose of surviving.

[Powerogue]

And then you whitewash Tyrande as "just not welcoming Nightborne with open arms and bearing gifts". Yeah, that's totally what comparing them to Night Elven tyrant and Nightborne tyrant is. Even though they were hunted by Elisande with Thalysra bearing scars of barely surviving an assassination attempt on her by Elisande. Comparing someone to their would-be murder is totes just "being wary". Obviously.

This is below sad.

Tyrande didn't know what we did from the nightborne quest chain. From her perspective she's being expected to fight alongside enemies and traitorous former family who cowered beneath a shield instead of facing their duty. Maybe if they had fought in the War of the Ancients against Azshara we wouldn't have even had a Sundering!

Tyrande is one of those characters like Jaina where taking the full backstory into account helps rather than just looking at their current actions and going "wow, what a bitch!"

[omeomorfismo]

But it's not implied that all who die go to the same place. As far as I've understood that's what she thinks the forsaken have to go to. There's definitly a "Heaven" in Warcraft, implied by the quest in WotlK where you helped that Paladin out as far as I can remember.

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technically speaking it was ner'zhul, when he lost power she regained control over herself again to betray him.

dks have control of undeads they chose to use, we see it in their questing zone, spells and probably even novels. it should be one of the reason of their more or less free will (basically to have quicker reaction in battle)... so "technically" they are all "connected" to lich king, but contolled by him or occasionally near dks and necromancers.

[Leodric]

dks have control of undeads they chose to use, we see it in their questing zone, spells and probably even novels. it should be one of the reason of their more or less free will (basically to have quicker reaction in battle)... so "technically" they are all "connected" to lich king, but contolled by him or occasionally near dks and necromancers.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Kingdom_...d_(WC3_Undead)

Sylvanas Windrunner: How could I not? For some reason I no longer hear the Lich King's voice in my head. My will is my own once again.
Sylvanas Windrunner: You dreadlords seem to know why.
Varimathras: We've discovered that the Lich King is losing his power! As it wanes, so too does his ability to command undead such as you.

And at that time Arthas was not the Lich King. Also the stuff happening in game does not always depict lore. For example I can't imagine a warrior getting rekt by a druid ingame the same way saurfang got rekt by malfurion (and before this derails into a malf vs. saurfang thread, I know he is an archdruid yadayada, but they way how weak they portraited saurfang against malfurion isn't the same how it would be ingame).

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Tyrande didn't know what we did from the nightborne quest chain. From her perspective she's being expected to fight alongside enemies and traitorous former family who cowered beneath a shield instead of facing their duty. Maybe if they had fought in the War of the Ancients against Azshara we wouldn't have even had a Sundering!

Tyrande is one of those characters like Jaina where taking the full backstory into account helps rather than just looking at their current actions and going "wow, what a bitch!"

I think everyone would be pissed/suspicious at someone fighting for their survival and getting left to fight alone against an enemy threating their existence.

[Kithelle]

Garrosh was a savage racist and she is a selfish corpse...so they are different!

[Ersula]

OP is ignoring a few things:

*The conspicuous "Signed by the Dark Lady herself", when actual decrees use Sylvanas' seal, an in-window graphic that began in before legion. But that's absent here. Why? Well, in real life, Military personnel used unique seals & stamps because signatures were too easily faked.
*Like in Cataclysm, this wouldn't be the first time quest dialog might get changed between the beta & launch. An overzealous Sylvanas-hating member of the quest designers making her seem more villainous than the other devs want has happened before.

[sighy]

Tyrande didn't know what we did from the nightborne quest chain. From her perspective she's being expected to fight alongside enemies and traitorous former family who cowered beneath a shield instead of facing their duty. Maybe if they had fought in the War of the Ancients against Azshara we wouldn't have even had a Sundering!

Tyrande is one of those characters like Jaina where taking the full backstory into account helps rather than just looking at their current actions and going "wow, what a bitch!"

The difference is that they fought against Azshara and sealed the second legion portal bellow ToS, however then had to errect the bouble, because a huge aramada of demons was looking to retaliate and would have wiped them out. So that is suddenly not much of an argument in her favor is it?

So no even with the knowledge of her backstory and shared past, with the nightborne of suramar she still seems to behave like an asshole. And if she is there i believe she would at least have recieved a TLDR version of the events in the past several months. Heck burning of Teldrassil might give her a personality trait other than racist, hypocrite, asshole and luv Malfurion.

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But it's not implied that all who die go to the same place. As far as I've understood that's what she thinks the forsaken have to go to. There's definitly a "Heaven" in Warcraft, implied by the quest in WotlK where you helped that Paladin out as far as I can remember.

She might not know that this "heaven" exists or she knows it might exist, while she damn well knows what she went through in afterlife. And i think that she sincerely believes that undeath is better than afterlife based on her own experiences.

[Leodric]

She might not know that this "heaven" exists or she knows it might exist, while she damn well knows what she went through in afterlife. And i think that she sincerely believes that undeath is better than afterlife based on her own experiences.

Yes, I did not argue that she does not believe that her current existence is better than the experience she had in the afterlife. But I can't imagine that Blizzard depicts Sylvanas being that "missinformed" considering how much stuff is going around her when it comes to the after life of WoW (Emerald Dream, Valahalla with Odyn and his crew, "heaven" where that paladin went to, and so on)