Garrosh to Sylvanas, there really isn't much difference.

[omeomorfismo]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Kingdom_...d_(WC3_Undead)

Sylvanas Windrunner: How could I not? For some reason I no longer hear the Lich King's voice in my head. My will is my own once again.
Sylvanas Windrunner: You dreadlords seem to know why.
Varimathras: We've discovered that the Lich King is losing his power! As it wanes, so too does his ability to command undead such as you.

And at that time Arthas was not the Lich King. Also the stuff happening in game does not always depict lore. For example I can't imagine a warrior getting rekt by a druid ingame the same way saurfang got rekt by malfurion (and before this derails into a malf vs. saurfang thread, I know he is an archdruid yadayada, but they way how weak they portraited saurfang against malfurion isn't the same how it would be ingame).

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I think everyone would be pissed/suspicious at someone fighting for their survival and getting left to fight alone against an enemy threating their existence.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Death_Knights_of_Acherus

at some point mulch reanimate milton as his servant.
considering that necromantic power are given by lk that was still in control its pretty canon that dk can control lesser undeads.
and both milton and sylvanas were ressed directly by a dk...

[sighy]

Yes, I did not argue that she does not believe that her current existence is better than the experience she had in the afterlife. But I can't imagine that Blizzard depicts Sylvanas being that "missinformed" considering how much stuff is going around her when it comes to the after life of WoW (Emerald Dream, Valahalla with Odyn and his crew, "heaven" where that paladin went to, and so on)

Well she also may have heard the stories of how nice Odyn is from his daughter, for real i would sooner trust a dreadlord to be my babysitter than trust anything Odyn... The Emerald Dream applies only to demigods(cenarius, aviana, pick your loa). Twisting Nether sets you on a respawn timer, void does who knows what and light is naaru propaganda.

[Ielenia]

The Nightborne she is insulting declined and fought the legion BOTH times. How can Tyrande guarantee she will not become the next evil elven overlord in the future?

If you want "guarantees" that Tyrande, herself, won't become the "next evil overlord", there are none. However, the night elves as a whole fought against the demons, every time they appeared. As far as we (and the night elves) know, the two times the nightborne met the Legion, they sided with the demons. Elisande fought against them the first time, yes, but now she "threw her lot" with them the second time.

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they joined horde, clealry they survived, as a population clearly :|

No thanks to Elisande, mind you.

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Likewise, just because they weren't mortal enemies doesn't mean they have some feelings of kinship you pulled out of your ass that is going to cause great moral qualms to them when facing other humans.

It's called "empathy". Look it up. I'm not saying they were buddy-buddies, but if there were no open or even veiled conflicts between the two nations, there would be some kinship between the kingdoms.

I did in the very first goddamn reply to you. Post #70. Sylvanas is not only ecstatic about being resurrected again herself, but considers Val'kyr and their powers to be the future of her race.

Post #70. This is all you speak related to Sylvanas:

Ah, yes, clinging to quotes from 15 years ago. Super effective. Never mind that Sylvanas had a major shift in her stances after Arthas' death.

I fail to see where I said you claimed that. I only elaborated on why he was imprisoned. Because the things that put him in prison didn't magically unmake themselves because he could have been used as a weapon against Legion.

And who said that the reasons he was put in prison would "magically unmake themselves"? But there is this thing about helping and collaborating for a lighter sentence, and possibly a pardon.

Except the Nightfallen have not sided with the demons.

Just like Elisande's group did not side with the demons back then?

And the part about welcoming them with open arms is still a petulant straw-man. No one made such a remark.

It's not a strawman because I see everyone criticizing Tyrande's well-deserved wariness toward the Nightfallen as 'undeserving' and 'arrogance'.

[Koraggar]

The cult is/was consisting of power hungry humans, so taking them as an example isn't the best, hence why I said in their right mind. Also of course you would see it there, as I've stated Blizzard has to do it since it's a playable race. I am not arguing it's not canon that some are ok with it, but it's still bullshit that they have changed it to "now she likes/accepts it", since the forsakens whole purpose was to fuck with the lich king. Also from someone crying the whole time what an agony it is and what a torment to changing her position cause she is a dynamic character is just bad writing. They could have done it so much better.

Well, you thinking it's bad writing is your opinion. Personally, I like that the Forsaken started "embracing" the "curse". I think that makes for a more interesting story than "self-loathing corpses slit their wrists in run-down human buildings". For Sylvanas individually it also makes sense given what she went through in EoN.

[sighy]

If you want "guarantees" that Tyrande, herself, won't become the "next evil overlord", there are none. However, the night elves as a whole fought against the demons, every time they appeared. As far as we (and the night elves) know, the two times the nightborne met the Legion, they sided with the demons. Elisande fought against them the first time, yes, but now she "threw her lot" with them the second time.

Suramar was pretty much the home base of the rebellion besides Black Rook Hold. You can't feasibly argue that current day Nighborne joined the legion and later rebelled, while at the same time shipping that Tyrande fought legion all along, because she bloody lived there. By the end of the war they have sealed the legion portal bellow the tomb of sargeras and made themselves a protective bouble so that Demons couldn't wipe them out, while majority of the rebellion army was moving on the Well of Eternity.

Now you have her comparing Thalysra to Azshara and Elisande effectively spitting on all the tremendous hardships and sacrifices she and the rebellion made. Heck the price for even getting to that point was bought by the blood of countless Nightborne/Nightfallen, but Tyrande has to spit on it. Even emphesizing that she and her Night Elves are there only to retrieve the Eye of Aman'thul.

I am not arguing she should not mistrust the Nightborne, but that her manerisms are absolutely unacceptable and beyond insulting to everything Thalysra and her followers had to go through, while she was in Val'shara accomplishing absolutely nothing of consequence.

[KrakHed]

The difference between Sylvanas and Garrosh is what drives them. Garrosh was driven by Pride, or perhaps his lack of it. This Pride extended to his people and whoever fed into his Pride. This is also why he was able to be an honorless piece of shit while giving lip service to honor at other points in time. It was all just about whatever made him feel like the bigger man.

Sylvanas is motivated by terror, and this fear extends to her people. This means she's less motivated by a need to validate herself and her people, and more by eliminating anything she perceives as a threat to them. She's just scared and willing to do anything to eliminate perceived threats. And this makes her every bit as dangerous to the Horde and the Alliance as Garrosh ever was. She's better left in the shadows where she feels safe.

[Deleted]

They are very different. Garrosh methods and can be thought about being wrong, but in his mind he was thinking in doing good for his people. But his wrong doings made him walk a path to his fall.
Sylvanas is a very different story. She was a dutiful and strong defender of her country, but she fell down trying to protect her land. That day Sylvanas Windrunner was over. Then, she was raised from the dead as a vengeful banshee, and since then she has been acting as the strong, evil, cunning entity she became. And she is cool being an evil undead queen. Don't make her change.

[Deleted]

I think Sylvanas care for the Horde the most of all warchiefs. Just because she will not survive without it. She needs the Horde

[Leodric]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Death_Knights_of_Acherus

at some point mulch reanimate milton as his servant.
considering that necromantic power are given by lk that was still in control its pretty canon that dk can control lesser undeads.
and both milton and sylvanas were ressed directly by a dk...

I am not arguing that DKs can't control lesser undeads. My point was that Sylvanas was not controlled by Arthas at that point but by the Lich King.

Sylvanas Windrunner: How could I not? For some reason I no longer hear the Lich King's voice in my head. My will is my own once again.
Sylvanas Windrunner: You dreadlords seem to know why.
Varimathras: We've discovered that the Lich King is losing his power! As it wanes, so too does his ability to command undead such as you.

Also, you compare Sylvanas, a Banshee Queen to a common Undead. I don't think Blizzard intended that a DK would be able to control someone like her.

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I am not arguing she should not mistrust the Nightborne, but that her manerisms are absolutely unacceptable and beyond insulting to everything Thalysra and her followers had to go through, while she was in Val'shara accomplishing absolutely nothing of consequence.

Well at the end she did help the rebellion and fought on the front. Point is that Blizzards writing completly shits on the sacrifices the NEs did for them. I mean where is the logic in fighting against someone, who risked his/her life for your cause, to free you from your sufferings and the next moment you fight them because they said mean stuff to you? Just let that sink in for a moment and put yourself in the situation of Tyrande and the Night Elves. It's such a huge unlogical/uncomprehending dick move from the nightborne that the only reason I can imagine Blizzard doing that is because of in-game reasons so that the Horde gets a new faction and not because they thought it's good writing.

Declaring the Nightborne as a faction neutral and maybe leaning towards the Horde in a sympathetic manner would be understandable, but ready to fight the faction which they fought the demons against and which was again willing to sacrifice their lives for them is a joke.

[sighy]

Well at the end she did help the rebellion and fought on the front. Point is that Blizzards writing completly shits on the sacrifices the NEs did for them. I mean where is the logic in fighting against someone, who risked his/her life for your cause, to free you from your sufferings and the next moment you fight them because they said mean stuff to you? Just let that sink in for a moment and put yourself in the situation of Tyrande and the Night Elves. It's such a huge unlogical/uncomprehending dick move from the nightborne that the only reason I can imagine Blizzard doing that is because of in-game reasons so that the Horde gets a new faction and not because they thought it's good writing.

Declaring the Nightborne as a faction neutral and maybe leaning towards the Horde in a sympathetic manner would be understandable, but ready to fight the faction which they fought the demons against and which was again willing to sacrifice their lives for them is a joke.

The Nightborne tought they needed allies, who would you choose the people, who understand your plight, who came there with the intention of actually helping your people or the bitch who insulted every bit of hardship you went through since the legion came and made it explicitely clear they specifically are there to take the mcguffin.

Suprisingly they chose the people they had a lot in common with, who showed understaning of their hardships and didn't insult everything they stood for and just went through. Because sometimes being nice or atleast not being an asshole can earn you friendship, who would've tought?(not even going to mention the fact that Tyrande had Arcane be punishable by death until a couple years ago)

[Leodric]

The Nightborne tought they needed allies, who would you choose the people, who understand your plight, who came there with the intention of actually helping your people or the bitch who insulted every bit of hardship you went through since the legion came and made it explicitely clear they specifically are there to take the mcguffin.

Suprisingly they chose the people they had a lot in common with, who showed understaning of their hardships and didn't insult everything they stood for and just went through. Because sometimes being nice or atleast not being an asshole can earn you friendship, who would've tought?(not even going to mention the fact that Tyrande had Arcane be punishable by death until a couple years ago)

Yes of course they need allies, but as a neutral city/state you can still have bargains with both sides when shit hits the fan, just like the Horde and Alliance also work together when Azeroth is threatened. I would choose not to fight against the people who sacrificed their lives and with whom I fought the demons for so many years. Being ready to fight against a whole group which have done so much for me only because one person said some mean things is unlogical and a dick move, no matter how much you turn it. Actions speak louder than words.

[sighy]

Yes of course they need allies, but as a neutral city/state you can still have bargains with both sides when shit hits the fan, just like the Horde and Alliance also work together when Azeroth is threatened. I would choose not to fight against the people who sacrificed their lives and with whom I fought the demons for so many years. Being ready to fight against a whole group which have done so much for me only because one person said some mean things is unlogical and a dick move, no matter how much you turn it. Actions speak louder than words.

I think even, if they didn't allow Tyrande to talk(because her anti-skill in diplomacy is truely astounding) the Nightborne would ultimately lean toward the Horde, because they jsut have so much in common, with the blood elves and the Night Elves only recently lifted the "arcane means execution" policy. Also we know for a fact that Blood Elves maintained contact after the Nighthold, which Night Elves didn't according to what Thalysra says in the unlock scenario.

It is kinda like Night Elves joining the alliance in Vanilla, because back then tehy didn't realy have a good reason for it either, after the battle at mount hyjal.

But if you are going to take this approach the army of the light are even bigger dicks in that regard

[Pheraz]

I just hope that the focus on the ugly (ihmo) horde characters will vanish soon. The ingame horde is boring and ugly (imho), I just want to do cool fantasy dungeons. Please get these shreks and ugly (imho) undead flubber skin zombies out of my face. Srsly.

This faction war stuff is really not my cup of tea. I like wow when I discover cool dungeons with my beautiful alliance bros or kill evil orcs in dark towers or slay dragons and wear cool amor. I don't want to be here and rage over useless undead elf girls burning trees and how the orcs have so much honor. I don't care about the horde as long as they are not part of the story I experience. But this whole stuff is really rubbed into my face.

Maybe there is still hope for me and the old gods really return to swallow all. I hope they will swallow the horde first but I guess they spit em out asap because they taste like old leather :S

[Goretex]

I'd embrace either Sylvanas being good or evil. Just embrace it or faction change. I can't see myself being Alliance again so Lok'Tar Ogar!

[Deleted]

Two differences tbh. Round and bouncy differences.

[Deleted]

"Isn't it obvious, warchief? I serve the Horde."

Would she betray the horde if it came down to a choice between her ambitions to control Lordaeron for the forsaken and conquer death itself and the best interests of the horde? We don't know. I feel like this is the expansion where we'll find out, one way or the other.

She wouldn't, simply because betraying the horde will bite her in the ass and I think she knows that all too well.

She can accomplish way more at the head of the horde than as an exiled horde.

[omeomorfismo]

No thanks to Elisande, mind you.

clearly she doesnt partecipated to the insurrection but anyway without that initial bargain they all died.
elysande had to made a choise and she predict right, clearly not interpreting what would happen in the middle

I am not arguing that DKs can't control lesser undeads. My point was that Sylvanas was not controlled by Arthas at that point but by the Lich King.

Sylvanas Windrunner: How could I not? For some reason I no longer hear the Lich King's voice in my head. My will is my own once again.
Sylvanas Windrunner: You dreadlords seem to know why.
Varimathras: We've discovered that the Lich King is losing his power! As it wanes, so too does his ability to command undead such as you.

Also, you compare Sylvanas, a Banshee Queen to a common Undead. I don't think Blizzard intended that a DK would be able to control someone like her.

and nobody is saying that scourge isnt linked to the lk, but the power to command could be passed at will between the member. in all the campaing we see nathrezims and arthas passing the control of ghouls and zombies...
then arthas even ressed and controlled a frost wyrm with his power alone (ch4 legacy of the damned), why he should be in difficult with a banshee?

[Ielenia]

clearly she doesnt partecipated to the insurrection but anyway without that initial bargain they all died.
elysande had to made a choise and she predict right, clearly not interpreting what would happen in the middle

Again, she wasn't right. You'd have a point if she did all that she did knowing the heroes of the Alliance and the Horde would come, defeat her and the Legion, and save her people. But she didn't. And she told us so. The nightborne who served the Legion? Those are either dead or imprisoned. Likely dead. The ones who got saved were the ones who were subjugated, the ones that were being taken to feel the soul engines. We know that the Legion doesn't really keep up their promises. The nightborne's fate was sealed, either way. Her people was saved in spite of Elisande.

[TickTickTick]

I dont want to join the circlejerk around Sylvanas, but... I'd rather get bombed by an iron star than by a plague bomb only to be denied eternal rest and be forced to serve the one who killed me in the first place. And before someone says that each new forsaken is given a choice, that was maybe canon in Cata, but not now for sure. Sylvanas specifically orders to kill them so she can raise them. You'd be a fool to think that she murders a whole village just to give them choice of serving her. The post-Legion generation of forsaken are surely being brainwashed.

[sighy]

I dont want to join the circlejerk around Sylvanas, but... I'd rather get bombed by an iron star than by a plague bomb only to be denied eternal rest and be forced to serve the one who killed me in the first place. And before someone says that each new forsaken is given a choice, that was maybe canon in Cata, but not now for sure. Sylvanas specifically orders to kill them so she can raise them. You'd be a fool to think that she murders a whole village just to give them choice of serving her. The post-Legion generation of forsaken are surely being brainwashed.

The only teeny tiny problem wiht that being, if Sylvanas intended to raise them don't you think she would prehaps just maaaaybe send somebody capable of ressurrecting them as a part of the assalut?