The Last Jedi "Actual" Rotten Tomatoes Popcorn Score

[Endus]

Mind you, please be aware that my gripe is with Holdo being propped up as an awesome leader and making poor leadership decisions, not with the fact that she is a woman.

I don't think anyone really argued that Holdo was an "awesome leader". In the supplementary canon, she rose through the ranks by being a bit of an unpredictable oddball of a thinker, coming at problems from directions most people didn't foresee. Which was helpful, as a tactician, if wildly nontraditional. She's smart, but not necessarily good at the people skills.

[Zogarth]

I am not normally one to point out bad sources... but when the source is a flat-earther... yeah, no matter how plausible this may be, i would take it with a grain a salt... or well, a truckload of it.

[Deleted]

Mostly just people who want to claim there is a feminist agenda so they can hate the movie because of it.

There were a few articles arguing it was feminist with the total opposite intent: to declare feminist triumph. Or something along those lines.
/shrug.

[Fayolynn]

With basically no training at all he used the force to blow up the Death Star while dozens of veteran fighter pilots died.

He used the force to know the exact right moment to fire in order to hit a small target. Literally the only thing he had been trained how to do before Obi-Wan died and it took Obi-Wan shouting at him from beyond the grave to make him do it. Ontop of that one pilot almost managed to pull it off without using the Force. Luke almost died 3 times during the battle, twice because of his bad he was as a pilot/dog fighting. He let himself get separated from his squadron and almost got shot down by a tie fighter, only living because Wedge made it to him in time. He almost crashed himself into the deathstar attempting to take out a turbolaser battery. Then finally Darth Vader would have shot him down if Han hadn't returned out of nowhere to cover him. Totally a Mary Sue.

[Deleted]

I don't think anyone really argued that Holdo was an "awesome leader". In the supplementary canon, she rose through the ranks by being a bit of an unpredictable oddball of a thinker, coming at problems from directions most people didn't foresee. Which was helpful, as a tactician, if wildly nontraditional. She's smart, but not necessarily good at the people skills.

Is that supplementary canon any good?
I absolutely love the actress, but didn't care much for the character. Not sure why... the departure, though literally awesome, kinda left me wondering why bring such an actress to a 1 time gig with no in-movie background.

[Antiganon]

I don't think anyone really argued that Holdo was an "awesome leader". In the supplementary canon, she rose through the ranks by being a bit of an unpredictable oddball of a thinker, coming at problems from directions most people didn't foresee. Which was helpful, as a tactician, if wildly nontraditional. She's smart, but not necessarily good at the people skills.

I'll have to watch it again, maybe I just misread the situation.

I generally tend to think that people who rise to the rank of Admiral generally do so because of their effectiveness as leaders, rather than in spite of it. Thrawn, Ackbar, Pellaeon exemplify this. Wedge too, but he topped out at General IIRC.

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Is that supplementary canon any good?
I absolutely love the actress, but didn't care much for the character. Not sure why... the departure, though literally awesome, kinda left me wondering why bring such an actress to a 1 time gig with no in-movie background.

I have read the "shortly after RotJ" new canon, and it is every bit as compelling as the old EU canon.

Nothing with Holdo though.

[Kpmk]

It's really no secret that many of the critics on RT are unreliable and tend to rate movies based on what they think people want to hear, vs. the actual quality of the movie.

There's no way in hell Black Panther deserved a 97% like it was leagues above every other similar Marvel origin movie they cranked out. In my experience, the audience scoring is a much more reliable scale of a movie's rating.

I've always found audience scores to be totally random and inconsistent

[Polyxo]

This is a weird conspiracy theory to have.

[Endus]

Is that supplementary canon any good?

TBH, I haven't read it, I'm pulling stuff from Wookiepedia on their page for Holdo.

I'll have to watch it again, maybe I just misread the situation.

I generally tend to think that people who rise to the rank of Admiral generally do so because of their effectiveness as leaders, rather than in spite of it. Thrawn, Ackbar, Pellaeon exemplify this. Wedge too, but he topped out at General IIRC.

FWIW, in Star Wars, the Navy seems to deal with ship command exclusively, where the Army is general tactics and starfighters and landing groups and all that. I linked Dameron's rank badge; he's Army, not Navy (which is blue). So Wedge, being in starfighter chain of command, would ascend to General, not Admiral.

But history has plenty of examples of generals and admirals who either gloriously fuck up or who never should have earned the rank. The idea that this is magically impossible in Star Wars just doesn't make sense, frankly.

I have read the "shortly after RotJ" new canon, and it is every bit as compelling as the old EU canon.

Nothing with Holdo though.

She's a supporting character in this, apparently; https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...ss-of-alderaan

[sarahtasher]

Poe demotion might have something to do with the fact that he lost virtually the entire wing...and it was a rather small wing to begin with

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Okay, I take it that the usual suspects are offended that someone not ''white male with a mania for goose stepping'' is in command position (it's heavily implied that the immense majority of the Rebels are not exactly military material).

Which is a odd point, considering that for decades, the only remotely competent Imperial admiral had, yes, a penis (presumably) but also blue skin and glowing red eyes and was explictly the victim of rabid xenophobia. (Because, stupid SJW than I am, I wonder why ''pink hair'' exclude you from military command competence but ''blue skin and fascination fort artwork'' does not (1))

(1) The new canon enforce that point.

[Daara]

Seems so far to me that the only people defending this movie are SJW's and the Star Wars super fanpersons.

I went into it with high expectations and was severely let down. Was it fun to watch? Sure, but the story and dialogue was terrible. Full of plot holes and characters not acting like themselves. But hey...it had strong women and a diverse cast! So it must be good right?

[sarahtasher]

Seems so far to me that the only people defending this movie are SJW's and the Star Wars super fanpersons.

I went into it with high expectations and was severely let down. Was it fun to watch? Sure, but the story and dialogue was terrible. Full of plot holes and characters not acting like themselves. But hey...it had strong women and a diverse cast! So it must be good right?

Again, what kind of Star Wars movies that you watched that did not STRONGLY imply that Imperials were Nazis and incompetent ones at that ?

Again, why people can accept that a blue skinned with glowing red eyes dudes can be the greatest admiral ever seen (who is not afraid of the Emperor and was the victim of Imperial xenophobia) but not that Vietnamese actresses can be gunners and mechanics ?

[Goldielocks]

Uh oh, it had a female character in it. Automatic. Feminist. Trash.

Jesus Christ dude I can’t tell if you completely missed what I posted or you’re sarcastically refuting it.

[Endus]

Seems so far to me that the only people defending this movie are SJW's and the Star Wars super fanpersons.

I went into it with high expectations and was severely let down. Was it fun to watch? Sure, but the story and dialogue was terrible. Full of plot holes and characters not acting like themselves. But hey...it had strong women and a diverse cast! So it must be good right?

It's more that I recognize that Star Wars has literally always been silly popcorn "SPLOSIONS AND LAZER SWORDS" sci-fi. The original trilogy was built, from the ground up, on the expectation and desire to sell toys, fer crissakes (which they were wildly successful at, I'll admit). This is why there's tons of wacky characters, it drove ship design concepts, it's why Ewoks exist, and so forth. The spiritualism of the Force has always been watered-down and misunderstood Bhuddism. It was groundbreaking in terms of special effects, but that's really about it. That spectacle in theaters captured people's minds like no other films had, which is why it's had such lasting popularity.

In terms of narrative quality and complexity, it's always been a bit crap. Hell, look at all the faffing about to retroactively make "made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs" a not-stupid comment, since it's pretty damn obvious that Lucas thought "parsec" was a unit of time, not distance, when he wrote it. Or Luke and Leia french kissing and Luke being part of her budding love triangle, despite being her brother. People have wondered why the escape pod with 3P0 and R2 was allowed to crash on Tattooine; they were after the Death Star plans, and figured "hey, there's no life signs, so they couldn't possibly have stuck the plans in there or given them to droids, right?"

It's always been flashy and silly and about as deep as a puddle.

[Goldielocks]

It's more that I recognize that Star Wars has literally always been silly popcorn "SPLOSIONS AND LAZER SWORDS" sci-fi. The original trilogy was built, from the ground up, on the expectation and desire to sell toys, fer crissakes (which they were wildly successful at, I'll admit). This is why there's tons of wacky characters, it drove ship design concepts, it's why Ewoks exist, and so forth. The spiritualism of the Force has always been watered-down and misunderstood Bhuddism. It was groundbreaking in terms of special effects, but that's really about it. That spectacle in theaters captured people's minds like no other films had, which is why it's had such lasting popularity.

In terms of narrative quality and complexity, it's always been a bit crap. Hell, look at all the faffing about to retroactively make "made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs" a not-stupid comment, since it's pretty damn obvious that Lucas thought "parsec" was a unit of time, not distance, when he wrote it. Or Luke and Leia french kissing and Luke being part of her budding love triangle, despite being her brother. People have wondered why the escape pod with 3P0 and R2 was allowed to crash on Tattooine; they were after the Death Star plans, and figured "hey, there's no life signs, so they couldn't possibly have stuck the plans in there or given them to droids, right?"

It's always been flashy and silly and about as deep as a puddle.

I agree that Star Wars has always been really simplistic and full of plot holes, but the issue I have in this scenario is that it's using sexism to hide TLJ's mediocrity. I've critiqued Rey's lack of depth multiple times and many retorts have been the sexism card. Any critique involving Holdo as well has been met with a similar response, even Rose. That's the difference here. Fans have an opportunity to defend what they love and they use it, regardless of how terrible that defense is.

It's pathetic, honestly.

[sarahtasher]

It's more that I recognize that Star Wars has literally always been silly popcorn "SPLOSIONS AND LAZER SWORDS" sci-fi. The original trilogy was built, from the ground up, on the expectation and desire to sell toys, fer crissakes (which they were wildly successful at, I'll admit). This is why there's tons of wacky characters, it drove ship design concepts, it's why Ewoks exist, and so forth. The spiritualism of the Force has always been watered-down and misunderstood Bhuddism. It was groundbreaking in terms of special effects, but that's really about it. That spectacle in theaters captured people's minds like no other films had, which is why it's had such lasting popularity.

In terms of narrative quality and complexity, it's always been a bit crap. Hell, look at all the faffing about to retroactively make "made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs" a not-stupid comment, since it's pretty damn obvious that Lucas thought "parsec" was a unit of time, not distance, when he wrote it. Or Luke and Leia french kissing and Luke being part of her budding love triangle, despite being her brother. People have wondered why the escape pod with 3P0 and R2 was allowed to crash on Tattooine; they were after the Death Star plans, and figured "hey, there's no life signs, so they couldn't possibly have stuck the plans in there or given them to droids, right?"

It's always been flashy and silly and about as deep as a puddle.

I'm quite amazed when people cry over Snokes being poorly developped. What exactly did we knew about Palpatine before he fell in a bottomless pit inexplicably put into his throne room ?

1)He is super duper evil

2)He is the Emperor

(''Sith'', ''Palpatine'' or any characterization of the Empire beyond that ? EU. Hell, Episode IV strongly suggest that Tarkin is bossing around Darth Vader)

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I agree that Star Wars has always been really simplistic and full of plot holes, but the issue I have in this scenario is that it's using sexism to hide TLJ's mediocrity. I've critiqued Rey's lack of depth multiple times and many retorts have been the sexism card. Any critique involving Holdo as well has been met with a similar response, even Rose. That's the difference here. Fans have an opportunity to defend what they love and they use it, regardless of how terrible that defense is.

It's pathetic, honestly.

In 1980, MRA and edgelords would have oinked what 1980 Breitbart or 1980 Alex Jones would have ordered to think

-UR UR UR, ALDEREAAN LIBURAL, KILL THEM KEK

[Goldielocks]

In 1980, MRA and edgelords would have oinked what 1980 Breitbart or 1980 Alex Jones would have ordered to think

-UR UR UR, ALDEREAAN LIBURAL, KILL THEM KEK

.......what?

[sarahtasher]

.......what?

I will repeat it. If you somehow missed the caveat that Star Wars strongly implied that Imperial were space fascists and extremely incompetent ones at that, defeated by a diverse coalition of people with Force powers, crappy old ships, gills, tentacles on the head, fur, and even vaginas, you did not watched the same movies that I did.

The most beloved novels of the old EU were even less subtle than SEQUEL trilogy over this. Mara Jade make circles around most Imperial officials, Thrawn blast them to oblivion, and Rogue Squadron, in universe with the equivalent of affirmative action quotas humiliate them even further.

(Actual plot points of Rogue Squadron novels : dudes that protest ''I'm not racist, I have alien friends'', an Imperial vilain trying to generate racism and conspiracy theories within the New Republic to sabotage the war effort (twice), species that join Rogue Squadron to prove they are not just strippers (Twi'leks), an ghetto for aliens on Coruscant...

[Goldielocks]

I will repeat it. If you somehow missed the caveat that Star Wars strongly implied that Imperial were space fascists and extremely incompetent ones at that, defeated by a diverse coalition of people with Force powers, crappy old ships, gills, tentacles on the head, fur, and even vaginas, you did not watched the same movies that I did.

The most beloved novels of the old EU were even less subtle than SEQUEL trilogy over this. Mara Jade make circles around most Imperial officials, Thrawn blast them to oblivion, and Rogue Squadron, in universe with the equivalent of affirmative action quotas humiliate them even further.

(Actual plot points of Rogue Squadron novels : dudes that protest ''I'm not racist, I have alien friends'', species that join Rogue Squadron to prove they are not just strippers (Twi'leks, an ghetto for aliens on coruscant...)

That has nothing to do with what I posted. Hence, my response is appropriate. Mara Jade isn't a flat character. There's more to "strong women" than the power in itself.

[sarahtasher]

That has nothing to do with what I posted. Hence, my response is appropriate. Mara Jade isn't a flat character. There's more to "strong women" than the power in itself.

Mara Jade, Tenel Ka, Bria Tharen (a rarity, a non Force User) are at the very least as much as ''Mary Sues'' than Rey. The stromtrooper armor might be incapable of stopping an hard look, but every single character (except in Rogue One)have much more robust plot armor

(Again, example : at Yavin 4, the Imperial fighters are able to one shot with ease Y-Wing, X-Wings (the former being supposedly much more robust than the later). Except, of course, Luke.)