Realistically, lets say Sylvanas is killed in BFA. Who is even left to be Warchief?

[Vanillidari]

Donald
J
Gallywix

Make Azeroth Great Again

[Terongor]

I doubt Saurfang will make it through BfA. I bet he dies and the old horde principles with him.

Horde still has Eitrigg then. He was one of blackrock commanders before and during the first war(with Orgrim and Varok)

- - - Updated - - -

Canonically the Alliance arrived second and there weren't any Horde there, if there were Genn would have never gotten into the building, so... They either weren't there, or the Alliance killed them all before Genn went in.

It was stated that Genn whent personally there so it might be handfull of troops at best, badly wounded genn and alliance PC v Sylvanas and horde PC. Sylvanas coulds just keep at distance and shoot the same arrows toward thoes alliance troop and alliance player whilw Horde players helps her. Deciding factor would be what artifacts the players have.

[PaladinBash]

Thrall or Saurfang but both are dodgy options. Thrall has been done to death and he should have been allowed to die off a long time. Saurfang is a big talker that does nothing. Garrosh was at least interesting because he was a big talker that then cheated when things got hard, that's at least a Horde thing. Everyone is all about lok'tar ogar until it's time for ogar.

[ARhaine]

You know... At least you have Sylvanas. We have a princy prince of boredom.

Still, I don't see any lore-rich characters that haven't been killed or already been Warchief. Sadly.

[Deleted]

What part of "his troops and the player character, who are outside the building" did you not understand? I even underlined it for you, did you even bother to read the whole post or are you being intentionally obtuse?

The only exit was blocked off by the Alliance player character and Genn's soldiers, if Genn wanted her dead, he would have told them to go in and kill her when he exited the building, while she had no reinforcements and no means of escape, but he didn't, because he considers them even.

This isn't about Genn being able to kill her himself, he had the means and authority to have the Alliance player and his soldiers kill her for him and chose not to.



But she has no problems pissing off the prime designate of Azeroth, who is allied with us against the Legion, by trying to corrupt and steal his Valkyr.

Yeah, she's a bastion of logical thinking /s.

Because Sylvanas isn't able to kill cannonfodder worgen and the player character of the Alliance on her own....sure. And she even has the help of the Horde player character who could hold off the Alliance one while Sylvanas takes care of the thrash. All these soldiers have nothing to hold up against her scream and her banshee form, if Sylvanas goes serious. Genn himself was lucky she was somewhere else with her thoughts and not set upon turning him into a slowly and painfully dying porcupine.

But yeah, you thought about that situation so very well in your perosnal warcraft world you created in your mind.

[Kauko]

I want Thrall back, but not this pop icon we currently have. I want the old badass Thrall that everyone respected and were afraid off...

[Wildberry]

Baine's stupidly written, but if Garrosh didn't want his subordinates to talk shit, he shouldn't demean and threaten them first. The Horde isn't some Mafia where you kiss the ring or get shot by the don's henchmen.

Actually, your strawman aside, the Horde works exactly like that.

Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.
I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.
From this moment until the end of days I live and die - For the Horde!

--"Blood Oath of the Horde"

Regarding Garrosh demeaning and threatening them, let's not forget that Cairne assaulted Garrosh and challenged him to Mak'gora because he didn't like the direction of the Horde. When looking at the conversation between Garrosh and Vol'jin at the start of Cataclysm, one can reasonably infer that it was Vol'jin who started throwing insults first. After all, the opening line is "Don't talk back to me, Troll" from Garrosh ("More Than Expected").

More importantly, you're really glossing over the fact that Garrosh's subordinates were doing far more than "talking shit." You can't wave that away.

Vol'jin insulted him, threatened to assassinate him, abandoned his post, questioned his orders, considered leaving the Horde and attended numerous subversive meetings. Sylvanas directly disobeyed his orders, twice. Lor'themar not only directly disobeyed an order from Garrosh, but was in talks to rejoin the Alliance. Gallywix was giving commands to his subordinates to ignore Garrosh's orders. Baine tried to leverage his loyalty to the Horde to force a change in the Horde's direction, he orchestrated subversive meetings, he fed sensitive information to the Alliance during a time of war, etc.

"My superior was mean to me" doesn't justify any of the above. There are numerous acts of treason, and violations of the Blood Oath of the Horde above. Baine et al. were not Garrosh's equals, they were subordinates, legally they were obligated to obey him.

As for a council, what have we to lose as this point.

Oh, I don't know, just the entire political structure of the Horde? Becoming a red version of the Alliance isn't a positive direction for the faction to take.

There's no good candidates left. Saurfang was but then they turned him into this suicidal Honorfang that are all his flaws turned up to 11 in order to sell us on the idea that Sylvanas is a preferable alternative.

The rest are awful (including Thrall), but Saurfang remains a good candidate. Forum memes don't change that.

I mean I dont get why Baine is such a bad choice. Is antagonizing the Alliance really such a big selling point of the horde? He is honorable, has good relations with the current high king (bleh) and the image of a Giant Tauren sitting on the throne, his fathers rune spear in one hand, and the grip of the throne in the other is pretty right on in power image. He has the Warrior pedigree, the diplomatic attitude and the raw inherent strength to make sure his word means something. Plus the most room to grow out of all the current candidates.

Baine betrayed the Horde during a time of war, exiled his own people for seeking retaliation against their enemies, and, like Thrall, would pursue peace at the expense of his people. He is easily the worst candidate for Warchief.

Because traditionally, killing off women (and other disenfranchised minority figures for that matter) in power - particularly in scenarios where there are few of those established to start with - is a sociopolitical can of worms Blizzard does not want to deal with.

So we're going to let the story stagnate because there's a potential for obese lesbians that don't even play the game to pitch a fit?

Granting that three of the four allied races introduced with Legion have female leaders, and presumably Jaina and Moira would lead the Kul Tirans and Dark Irons respectively, but then you invite the lingering question of whether Blizzard only decided put more women in power to preemptively justify being able to kill some women off ("we're not sexist, we swear, we have lots of female friends") -- especially uncomfortable since most of these "replacements" still presently lack in major impact, standing, or depth of personality, unlike Sylvanas.

So you mean a less-impactful version of what happened to the Trolls after Vol'jin died?

Plus Sylvanas is infamous at her worst and largely popular among players at her best, unlike Garrosh was when they killed him off. Killing her off for shock value so soon after killing Vol'jin for shock value wouldn't just make the audience apathetic to the frequency of these deaths, it would beg Women in Refrigerator debates.

We're not "killing her for shock value" though. We'd be killing her to put an end to her meandering story while, presumably, refocusing faction identity and the like.

The Horde was ok with Thrall.

No it wasn't. Thrall allowed Orgrimmar's citizens to go without, just so he could be a peacemonger.

Both could easily get some development over the cause of BFA to fix their 'flaws' preventing them from leadership then in 8.3 or whatever take the mantle

Rexxar doesn't have "flaws" to be fixed. Putting him as Warchief would destroy his character. It's simply not who he is. People need to drop the "Rexxar for Warchief meme." It's just dumb at this point. It makes it blatantly obvious that the person in question doesn't pay any attention to lore and only wants the name "Rexxar" to be Warchief, simply because of WCIII nostalgia. Pushing Rexxar for Warchief, while treating his aversion to politics, leadership and largely society as flaws to be "fixed," shows a fundamental lack of understanding of and appreciation for Rexxar's character.

There should be no Warchief. These are old ideas from an old world, before the Legion came.
The Horde should take up the mantle of democracy, to serve as an example to the alliance.

LOL no.

I just doubt the whole Garrosh 2.0 scenario. And Sylvanas in so unlikely to die because of fans. Saurfang is old and irrelevant to the current story, it would be fitting for him to die with the old Horde ideology.

"Let's dilute the faction and fundamentally change it because fans would riot if we killed Sylvanas."

That Void Elf avatar is so fitting in the worst of ways.

[A Dark Knight]

Horde leaders need to stop being killed off, its not fun anymore.

All is fair in love and war, why she does is for a better horde (for a certain point of view), so her actions are justified.

[Deleted]

Rexxar doesn't have "flaws" to be fixed. Putting him as Warchief would destroy his character. It's simply not who he is. People need to drop the "Rexxar for Warchief meme." It's just dumb at this point. It makes it blatantly obvious that the person in question doesn't pay any attention to lore and only wants the name "Rexxar" to be Warchief, simply because of WCIII nostalgia. Pushing Rexxar for Warchief, while treating his aversion to politics, leadership and largely society as flaws to be "fixed," shows a fundamental lack of understanding of and appreciation for Rexxar's character.

Ok cool. Regardless of his character up until this point those, his 'flaws' (notice the quotation marks showing I don't personally thinkt of them as flaws) can still be 'fixed' if Blizzard want to make him Warchief, especially if they have intentions to return the Horde to its Warcraft 3/ Vainila flavour.

Blizzard have contorted other characters to fit the warchief position before. Discounting Rexxar out of hand is just stupid.

The current Warchief four expansions ago was hated by the Horde leadership and was only motivated by her own survival. Now she's supposedly supported by majority of the Horde and motivated by a drive to ensure the survival of the Horde at all costs. Characters change to fit the story.

Personally I want to keep Slyvannas and show the Horde unit behind her. Or dissolve the position entirely and form a council. I have no horse in the Rexxar as Warchief race. I just want to Horde united.

[Flatspriest]

The best choice for a new Warchief is Basic Campfire.

[Jastall]

Actually, your strawman aside, the Horde works exactly like that.


--"Blood Oath of the Horde"

Ye gods, still going on about that Blood Oath that's been mentioned maybe twice in-game, that nobody seems to give a single shit about in-universe, that hasn't been consistently applied in the least and that Garrosh himself didn't even namedrop nor demand when new hopefuls joined his Horde? I'm done, keep clinging to your delusions as you act surprised that behaving like an uncaring tyrant (and admittedly, Blizzard's usual shit faction writing) is what got your waifu into trouble and trying to blame it on literally everyone but him doesn't work if you aren't swimming in bias.

At this point Basic Campfire is indeed going to be a less controversial choice than anyone else, and that's barely even a meme anymore. Sigh.

[Wildberry]

Ye gods, still going on about that Blood Oath that's been mentioned maybe twice in-game

This is hilarious and cute. You don't even try to argue validity at all. You just claim it doesn't matter because it hasn't been mentioned enough. Something not appearing often enough for your liking doesn't make it not canon. Sorry, but that's just the way it works.

that nobody seems to give a single shit about in-universe

Nazgrim, apparently, gave enough of a shit about it to remain by a Warchief he didn't particularly care for.

that hasn't been consistently applied in the least

The presence of a rebellion, which violates the Blood Oath, doesn't invalidate the Blood Oath. That's not an argument.

Garrosh himself didn't even namedrop

Is Garrosh supposed to cite a law which gives him authority for something that's already canon to become even more canon? That's ridiculous.

nor demand when new hopefuls joined his Horde?

The Taunka literally join the Horde by swearing the Blood Oath. Beyond that, Horde members swearing an oath to Garrosh was mentioned in "Tides of War" following the meeting in Grommash Hold. Most importantly, it's alluded to in the Horde intro to Pandaria:

All in service to the Horde are to swear an oath of allegiance to their new Warchief.

--"The Art of War"

I'm done, keep clinging to your delusions

What delusions? I've provided canon citations. They're just not "canon enough," and are overridden by your feelings, apparently.

surprised that behaving like an uncaring tyrant (and admittedly, Blizzard's usual shit faction writing) is what got your waifu into trouble and trying to blame it on literally everyone but him doesn't work if you aren't swimming in bias.

Yes, I'm the one swimming in bias. That's why all my posts are spin and headcanon, while yours are properly sourced and well argued... oh wait, that's not the case at all. You haven't provided a single citation, nor even referenced any event. You just want to pretend that Garrosh was treating his underlings horribly, and their offenses were minor.

It's especially telling that you chose to focus specifically on the Blood Oath. Of course you don't want to deal with the implication that Vol'jin threw the first insult, Lor'themar trying to switch sides and Baine committing literal treason. No, you chose the lowest hanging fruit and still failed to make a coherent argument. Bravo, really that was well done.

[Kieldon]

"Let's dilute the faction and fundamentally change it because fans would riot if we killed Sylvanas."

That Void Elf avatar is so fitting in the worst of ways.

Let's not be an edgy jerk and think for a second. I just said I don't believe she will die because we've been here already. I would like to see Saurfang remove her head from her neck but to me it's just do unlikely. And don't tell me you didn't notice her fanbase.

And the avatar thing... By your logic with that orc avatar does that mean you are a simple oaf? Wow, everyday here I learn something new.

[Wyshbonez]

Isn't the obvious answer... Wrathion!!! lol

[caervek]

The Alliance started the last war when Varian invaded undercity after the Wrathgate.

You mean when Varian responded to an act of war? lol.

[bozoben]

#SaurfangIsMyWarchief #SIMW!

[Aeula]

You mean when Varian responded to an act of war? lol.

He responded to an act of war by the legion by starting a war with the Horde. k.

[Belisaurio]

Sylvanas should continue. But if, for the topic, remove her, I think Thrall should be the one (I will hate that btw...).
But if we want to have a rollercoaster story, with crazy things to do and see, just vote Jastor Gallywix. He is our man!!!

[Jastall]

This is hilarious and cute. You don't even try to argue validity at all. You just claim it doesn't matter because it hasn't been mentioned enough. Something not appearing often enough for your liking doesn't make it not canon. Sorry, but that's just the way it works.


Nazgrim, apparently, gave enough of a shit about it to remain by a Warchief he didn't particularly care for.


The presence of a rebellion, which violates the Blood Oath, doesn't invalidate the Blood Oath. That's not an argument.


Is Garrosh supposed to cite a law which gives him authority for something that's already canon to become even more canon? That's ridiculous.


The Taunka literally join the Horde by swearing the Blood Oath. Beyond that, Horde members swearing an oath to Garrosh was mentioned in "Tides of War" following the meeting in Grommash Hold. Most importantly, it's alluded to in the Horde intro to Pandaria:


--"The Art of War"


What delusions? I've provided canon citations. They're just not "canon enough," and are overridden by your feelings, apparently.


Yes, I'm the one swimming in bias. That's why all my posts are spin and headcanon, while yours are properly sourced and well argued... oh wait, that's not the case at all. You haven't provided a single citation, nor even referenced any event. You just want to pretend that Garrosh was treating his underlings horribly, and their offenses were minor.

It's especially telling that you chose to focus specifically on the Blood Oath. Of course you don't want to deal with the implication that Vol'jin threw the first insult, Lor'themar trying to switch sides and Baine committing literal treason. No, you chose the lowest hanging fruit and still failed to make a coherent argument. Bravo, really that was well done.

Na, I'm pretending that leadership isn't about clinging to the letter of some oath while you run roughshod over your powerful subordinates and ignore their wishes. Because that usually gets you resentment and disunity. Which, surprise, is what happened. Besides, Saurfang defies Sylvanas several times before he semi-defects early in BfA (the instance in the upcoming book looks halfway like a threat to me, too), so based on your own reasoning why would he make a good Warchief anyway? Besides the fact that Garrosh did the same to Thrall. I mean, if ''well he called me bad names first so I must escalate the situation!'' is your idea of leadership, more power to you, but that does explain why you like Garrosh.

Anyway, I said I was done so I should keep my word.

One issue I have with the Warchief position is that it tends force other racial leaders to play second fiddle and be underdeveloped. Now if the Warchief stays in place for a long time that's not too big a problem, but with the musical chair that Blizzard tried to pull off in their infinite wisdom, it means you quickly run out of candidates. Seems to me that, realistically, they will never abolish the position of Warchief, but what replacement can they have for Sylvanas anyway? The rest are all nobodies and BfA doesn't look to be doing much about that so far.

[Wildberry]

Let's not be an edgy jerk and think for a second. I just said I don't believe she will die because we've been here already.

They stated at Blizzcon 2013, after deposing Garrosh that Sylvanas was going to receive a "reckoning." Now, that was a quote from years ago, obviously, but it shows that they've at least considered offing her. We've been here already, sure, so what? Has that stopped Blizzard from rehashing any of their plots before? Not at all. Given how repetitive WoW's story has become "X has been done before!" really should be taken as an argument for something's likelihood, not one against it.

And don't tell me you didn't notice her fanbase.

Garrosh had a healthy fanbase in Cataclysm. It didn't change a thing. Kael's fanbase got roundly screwed, and so on.

And the avatar thing...

You're under the impression that it would be "fitting" for the Old Horde ideology to die off, thus fundamentally diluting the faction as a whole. I just can't help but notice you happened to choose the biggest lore asspull in recent times as your avatar. I'm not judging you based entirely on your avatar, I'm factoring in your post, too.