How is kneeling and being captured Honorable??

[GreenJesus]

they just burnt down a world tree.
also we actually go to silithus to see whats going on and the horde starts killing alliance who are scouting the area, so the alliance starts killing the horde.
attacking by suprise is honorable... since when has that not been honorable?

Please tell me.. What do you normally do with spies that have their weapons drawn circling around your workers?

[Deleted]

So just to ask, is it canon that this happens? that saurfang kneels down to get executed and he does?
So much is going on with the Datamind so, would love to know

[Wildberry]

So just to ask, is it canon that this happens? that saurfang kneels down to get executed and he does?
So much is going on with the Datamind so, would love to know

It's canon. He's taken prisoner and held in the stockades. We bump into him when we go to bust Talanji and Zul out of jail.

[Deleted]

It's canon. He's taken prisoner and held in the stockades. We bump into him when we go to bust Talanji and Zul out of jail.

yea that is know. But is the " How is giving up and kneeling in front of Anduin to let him kill him honorable?" is that true? or just sylvanas Propaganda who want to make saurfang look bad?

[Wildberry]

yea that is know. But is the " How is giving up and kneeling in front of Anduin to let him kill him honorable?" is that true? or just sylvanas Propaganda who want to make saurfang look bad?

That's real* last I checked.

*alpha text. (Dialogue changes, bad class design doesn't)

[Deleted]

That's real* last I checked.

*alpha text. (Dialogue changes, bad class design doesn't)

got a link for that? would love to read it, but thanks none the less

[Ravingmad]

The message Blizzard is sending isn't that getting captured is honorable, but rather fighting the way the Horde/Sylvanas did during the siege is dishonorable so it's better to be dead.

To quote Saurfang:

After all she has done, I will never return to her Horde.
...
Make sure you know the difference between loyalty and honor.
And pray you never have to choose.

I think it explains it all.

[Wildberry]

got a link for that? would love to read it, but thanks none the less

From the early iteration of a PH cinematic

[Deleted]

Oh, I'm not saying it's very consistent, I'm saying there's a good reason for them to cling to these values and they shouldn't be okay with desecrating bodies. As for Trolls, I find it to be the most inconsistent of the bunch, one minute the Loa and Bwonsamdi particular are supposed to hate the undead, the next they don't gave a shit and just want more souls.

Can't really blame the orcs and tauren for worshipping their ancestors, but it's still up to those orcs and taurens to choose whether they prefer having an honourable death (and their ancestors getting pissed for not doing more, we all have parents, I'm sure there are ancestors like that.) or doing more dishonorable practices to save the Horde.


It's always good to avoid desecrating bodies, but any mage using a bit of fire or frost is gonna be doing that already, so I assume as long as it's not intentional that it's not seen as rebellion worthy.

We really need more world building about what the general populace thinks is ok. The blight, this so called extreme weapon that nobody likes, but when you try to look for sources to colaborate that, the best you get is garrosh who banned it because he wanted more forsaken to die instead of moral reasons.

they just burnt down a world tree.
also we actually go to silithus to see whats going on and the horde starts killing alliance who are scouting the area, so the alliance starts killing the horde.
attacking by suprise is honorable... since when has that not been honorable?

Teldrassil, isn't a world tree. It's a viable military target in a war that was started by the Alliance breaking a truce.

The Alliance in silithus are spying and planning on blowing up stuff and stealing plans, not only are the Horde and Alliance at war at this point, but the horde is allowed to kill them in this situation.

Attacking by surprise isn't very honourable when it is agreed after the rebellion after Garrosh "Hey, lets not kill eachother anymore and have a truce for now" and then attack without provocation.

[Wildberry]

the best you get is garrosh who banned it because he wanted more forsaken to die instead of moral reasons.

[citation needed]

[Deleted]

[citation needed]

Can't find a direct quote of him saying so, but in the short story "Sylvanas Windrunner: Edge of Night" he is busy sending the forsaken through a choke hold without allowing them to use the blight, which leads into the extinction of the forsaken.

While not hard prove of his intentions, he clearly hated the Forsaken and wanted them dead. And looking at his future endeavours, the blight isn't that morally apprehensible.

But it isn't direct proof.

[Aucald]

I suppose that makes sense, yeah. Dunno where they find said brain, but I guess having an halfway fresh one from an otherwise unusable corpse + a jolt of necromantic magic or alchemical whatisits is enough to raise a dumb abomination who are probably only useful as guards and (un)living weapons unlike the mainstream Forsaken. Definitely don't send them to pick flowers.

According to Calder, the brains are taken from (preferentially) the newly dead - he seems to use size and color to determine if the brain was from an intelligent person which is probably a humorous reference to the debunked "science" of Phrenology. The brains are then alchemically treated for use in the Abomination construct, a process that destroys higher reasoning, original personality, original allegiances, and greatly reduces the original intelligence (whatever it might've been). The result is a soulless, undead automaton with simplistic mental faculties - able to perform simple tasks such as melee/siege combat, collecting herbs (badly), guard duty like a watchdog, and giving simple directions to Undercity visitors.

[Jastall]

According to Calder, the brains are taken from (preferentially) the newly dead - he seems to use size and color to determine if the brain was from an intelligent person which is probably a humorous reference to the debunked "science" of Phrenology. The brains are then alchemically treated for use in the Abomination construct, a process that destroys higher reasoning, original personality, original allegiances, and greatly reduces the original intelligence (whatever it might've been). The result is a soulless, undead automaton with simplistic mental faculties - able to perform simple tasks such as melee/siege combat, collecting herbs (badly), guard duty like a watchdog, and giving simple directions to Undercity visitors.

That really doesn't sound like the sort of procedure that the Forsaken should find acceptable, but I guess they can hide behind the ''well it's not completely mindless, see!'' excuse.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That really doesn't sound like the sort of procedure that the Forsaken should find acceptable, but I guess they can hide behind the ''well it's not completely mindless, see!'' excuse.

It's not a real "person" so there is no will to be stolen.

[Aucald]

That really doesn't sound like the sort of procedure that the Forsaken should find acceptable, but I guess they can hide behind the ''well it's not completely mindless, see!'' excuse.

The Forsaken, like all other intelligent species, run the gamut of ideologies and/or ethical alignments. Some of them hold to the Forsaken maxim of "free will above all" with hidebound zealotry, and others toe the line of that philosophy (like Calder Gray himself), whereas others are flagrant hypocrites who indulge in Scourge Necromancy and create "mindslaves" from Human refugees. I would say the majority disposition of the Forsaken runs to neutral and evil themes (a product of the Necromancy that darkens their souls and blunts their emotions), but there are good-aligned Forsaken and other undead like the Forsaken such as Leonid Bartholomew, Keegan Darkmar, Alonsus Faol, Aelthalyste, Roland Abernathy, and Barnabas Grell.

[Deleted]

The Forsaken, like all other intelligent species, run the gamut of ideologies and/or ethical alignments. Some of them hold to the Forsaken maxim of "free will above all" with hidebound zealotry, and others toe the line of that philosophy (like Calder Gray himself), whereas others are flagrant hypocrites who indulge in Scourge Necromancy and create "mindslaves" from Human refugees. I would say the majority disposition of the Forsaken runs to neutral and evil themes (a product of the Necromancy that darkens their souls and blunts their emotions), but there are good-aligned Forsaken and other undead like the Forsaken such as Leonid Bartholomew, Keegan Darkmar, Alonsus Faol, Aelthalyste, Roland Abernathy, and Barnabas Grell.

Sorry, have to be nitpicky about this^^, but Alonsus Faol is not a Forsaken. He is an independent Undead, broke free of the Scourge on his own and never swore fealty to Sylvanas.

[Aucald]

Sorry, have to be nitpicky about this^^, but Alonsus Faol is not a Forsaken. He is an independent Undead, broke free of the Scourge on his own and never swore fealty to Sylvanas.

That is why I said "there are good-aligned Forsaken and other undead like the Forsaken," said bolded category containing individuals like Bartholomew, Faol, and Meryl Felstorm. They are all free-willed undead, the former two created by the Scourge Plague, but do not have evil alignments.

[Jastall]

It's not a real "person" so there is no will to be stolen.

The brain does come from a real person (preferably freshly killed), and is fundamentally altered in the process. But I guess someone will find a way to say that only paragons of free will take their enemies's brains and modify them using alchemical means to pilot corpse-stitched brutes.

@Aucald I fully understand that not all Forsaken come from the same mold and the faction is better for it (albeit Faol is no Forsaken as someone said) yet one of the cornerstones of their identity is supposed to be that they are fundamentally different from the Scourge and do not enslave the dead to do their bidding... except for all the times that they do it, that is, and handwave it with excuses. I wouldn't mind this if the rank hypocrisy was called out in-story, preferably by other Forsaken, but that happens very rarely.

The fact that 90% of the Forsaken we see are kill-crazy Joker expies, uncaring douches or mad scientists who spread the Blight every single chance they get doesn't help. The faction feels too one-note to me.

[Aucald]

Aucald I fully understand that not all Forsaken come from the same mold and the faction is better for it (albeit Faol is no Forsaken as someone said) yet one of the cornerstones of their identity is supposed to be that they are fundamentally different from the Scourge and do not enslave the dead to do their bidding... except for all the times that they do it, that is, and handwave it with excuses. I wouldn't mind this if the rank hypocrisy was called out in-story, preferably by other Forsaken, but that happens very rarely.

The fact that 90% of the Forsaken we see are kill-crazy Joker expies, uncaring douches or mad scientists who spread the Blight every single chance they get doesn't help. The faction feels too one-note to me.

In many ways, they kind of are one-note. The Forsaken as a disparate and motley collection of individuals is not an often explored facet of the race, generally they are both seen and portrayed as something of a monolith. The chief example is probably the Wrathgate, in which the entire Forsaken race is tarred by the actions of Putress (himself a Forsaken loyal to the Burning Legion through Varimathras) and no one, including the Forsaken, really put up much of a strong objection to the charge. The Forsaken have no predominant heroes outside of Sylvanas (who carries her own historic baggage both ancient and new) - the most predominant undead NPC's outside of Sylvanas happen to be characters that have broken from the organization instead such as Leonid or who were never part of it such as Faol. The race is unexplored and underutilized, similar to the Gnomes - they've only got the one general characteristic (such as the Gnomes have with their embrace of technology), and it just so happens to be one that is highly stigmatized in-game (a fascination with plagues, Blight, and Necromancy).

[sighy]

In many ways, they kind of are one-note. The Forsaken as a disparate and motley collection of individuals is not an often explored facet of the race, generally they are both seen and portrayed as something of a monolith. The chief example is probably the Wrathgate, in which the entire Forsaken race is tarred by the actions of Putress (himself a Forsaken loyal to the Burning Legion through Varimathras) and no one, including the Forsaken, really put up much of a strong objection to the charge. The Forsaken have no predominant heroes outside of Sylvanas (who carries her own historic baggage both ancient and new) - the most predominant undead NPC's outside of Sylvanas happen to be characters that have broken from the organization instead such as Leonid or who were never part of it such as Faol. The race is unexplored and underutilized, similar to the Gnomes - they've only got the one general characteristic (such as the Gnomes have with their embrace of technology), and it just so happens to be one that is highly stigmatized in-game (a fascination with plagues, Blight, and Necromancy).

They inheritly are a group of individuals, who find strength in sharing their hardships, which were brought upon them by undeath. And their general thematic is trying to find a place in a world, which is out to get them. I mean the only undead, who are not part of the Forsakenare either realy powerful or part of the scourge.

With Sylvanas having a presumably prominent role in an expansion supposedly centered around factions i think we are quite likely to get some decent development for the Forsaken.(hopefully) As far as "new" Forsaken heroes go we got Nathanos and Lilian to look forward to i suppose.