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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    It's not for "the majority" as if that's what the majority wanted, since we know 60-70% of the PvP base has gotten the hell out of WoW and the ladders collapsed a few weeks into the xpac...because of Legion's failed design. It's actually the complete opposite: the majority doesn't like it.
    Yeah, but now that these 60-70% are gone it's for the remaining majority.

  2. #22
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    Like they care?

    There isn't even anyone in charge of pvp anymore for how long now? There isnt even a plan for this side of the game, I guess we should be thankful they even let it exist at this point.

  3. #23
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iFool View Post
    The whole argument for pruning is a mixed bag really.
    If PvP is to flourish again, then there's some measures that have to be taken.

    Pruning needs to happen again.
    For some things, at least. Of course, balance is not something we should strive for. WoD came and went, and we all know how good it was.
    Pruning, if made properly, can be a tool to free up some power budget both in the classes and in the meta.

    If tomorrow Rets and Ferals were to lose their kick, everyone would freak out a little. But then if their utility was to be emphasised, then the removal of their kicks would have been made up for.
    How do you emphasise Hammer of Justice? By removing Storm Bolt, for example.

    There's a number of skills that have been made easier for the sake of being easier, but truth is that some skills need some multi dimension to be engaging both in PvP and PvE.
    I always liked the old Charge stun concept: you either used it as a gapcloser or as an impromptu CC.
    Giving Storm Bolt basically buries the concept and relegates Charge to the role of a pretty strong gap closer. But the identity and depth of Charge is stronger than a fire and forget ranged stun.

    I'm kind of rambling but my point I think is clear: something has to be done, but returning skills to kits alone won't fit the bill.
    This is basically the legion "class fantasy" excuse for pruning. When an ability is pruned, an option is lost. It may be a mobility option, an offensive option, a defensive option, a control option, or a mix of all four. After the option is removed you will find yourself in a combat situation where you are hopeless, whereas before you had an option. This kills PvP. It's all about plays and outplays. Pruning removes both... ability by ability.

    I never liked stormbolt personally. An undodgeable physical ranged stun. It shouldn't be pruned and left alone, but replaced with either concussive blow or throwdown. Also, its existence didn't make charge's stun any less useful. Stormbolt is was another option warriors gained for gapclosing, lockdown, or off-cc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Thats disgenuine. Yes, people did doom say in past expansion. But for the coming of Legion, in PvP especially there was far more of an outcry than in the past with a great deal more well thought out feedback to why it wouldnt go well that was subsequently ignored.

    You may recall Legion launched with devs claiming they were looking for feedback and looking to be transparent. Both of these were false, and they on multiple occasions did out right admit that they had ignored various feedback. For instance they stated that they ignored warrior feedback in its entirety (followed by a half assed apology).
    Pruning became a problem in WoD, the people complaining about it back then are not to be discredited. They were right.

    I also recall seeing a blue post stating that grounding totem was removed because encounter devs forgot to mark boss abilities as immune to grounding. And celestalon having to be reminded that shadowstep being merged with ambush was a bad idea. And also when celestalon tried to explain that brewmasters weren't playing their class correctly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SensationalBanana View Post
    Every expansion has had "THE WORST CLASS DESIGN EVER"...

    And then, a new expansion comes out, and the previous expansions are remembered fondly by some which then spins off into this illusion that "X expansion had the best design ever!!!"... Mark my post here, the song will start to change quite early on in BfA.

    I sure wish the "low skill cap" that Legion brought into PVP had reflected on myself... #NeverGladiator :'(
    Then again, the pruning didn't suddenly make me a 90+ percentile Mythic pro either. Guessing this stands for most, including the extremely vocal peeps.
    When class design has gotten worse in every expansion since MoP, isn't it fair to say BFA design is worse than legion design which is worse than WoD design which is worse than MoP design?
    Last edited by docterfreeze; 2018-04-21 at 12:21 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    Just something that made me furious: during the alpha/beta test of legion a lot of concerns rose up in the community (sure, I knew this part) but some dude made an incredibly gigantic thread about it pointing everything that ultimately became the very reasons why Legion had the worst class design in the game's history.
    I just felt like I had to share this: sure it is, by now, a 2 years old thread on official forums, but it just feels terrible that so much feedback was discarded.
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9709703?page=1
    For every thread like that which ends up being correct, there's at least 10 that would turn out to be entirely wrong if Blizzard went with it. It's only possible to know for sure once it's done and people play it. You can spend all your energy being mad about this one instance, or you can thank them for not completely destroying the game with the thousands of shit suggestions stupid people from the community have asked but Blizzard ignored.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    For every thread like that which ends up being correct, there's at least 10 that would turn out to be entirely wrong if Blizzard went with it. It's only possible to know for sure once it's done and people play it. You can spend all your energy being mad about this one instance, or you can thank them for not completely destroying the game with the thousands of shit suggestions stupid people from the community have asked but Blizzard ignored.
    what on earth are you even going on about?
    Blizzard's changes in Legion were doomed the moment they were announced. and they werent even suggestions they were just random shit pulled out of a dev's ass.

    cmon, auto-casted shit and disable/roots/stuns being stuck into NORMAL PVE DPS ROTATIONS for no reason at all, there is no way on earth that wouldn't doom the shit out of PvP in the game, not to mention all the other changes mentioned in the thread the guy made, every one of those things blizz did in legion destroyed wow pvp
    Last edited by Nuba; 2018-04-20 at 07:16 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    what on earth are you even going on about?
    Blizzard's changes in Legion were doomed the moment they were announced. and they werent even suggestions they were just random shit pulled out of a dev's ass.

    cmon, auto-casted shit and disable/roots/stuns being stuck into NORMAL PVE DPS ROTATIONS for no reason at all, there is no way on earth that wouldn't doom the shit out of PvP in the game, not to mention all the other changes mentioned in the thread the guy made, every one of those things blizz did in legion destroyed wow pvp
    I'm not saying they didn't, I'm saying it's impossible to know until it's in there and people try it for real.
    You think Blizz saw that and went "yeah he's right but whatever lol let's do this shit"?
    They get a ton of suggestion every day and most of them are straight up stupid. If you were in their shoes you most likely would have done worse. But whatever really, don't think any further than what you believe.

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    I'm not saying they didn't, I'm saying it's impossible to know until it's in there and people try it for real.
    You think Blizz saw that and went "yeah he's right but whatever lol let's do this shit"?
    They get a ton of suggestion every day and most of them are straight up stupid. If you were in their shoes you most likely would have done worse. But whatever really, don't think any further than what you believe.
    What, more excuse-making for Blizz? You bet your ass they say, "yeah we'll do whatever shit we want". How long is something supposed to be in the game for "people to try it for real"...until it's deemed garbage and removed or reverted, or is it until they've made enough profit on a shitty design??

    What's stupid is thinking that Blizz has the best interests of the gameplay in mind when they've proven for years that they do not. But they're good at lying about it and spinning a rosy picture.

    As I've said, EVERYTHING they do to the game can be traced back to in some way stretching out your time-logged-in to increase profits, or to sell something in the online Shop.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    What, more excuse-making for Blizz? You bet your ass they say, "yeah we'll do whatever shit we want". How long is something supposed to be in the game for "people to try it for real"...until it's deemed garbage and removed or reverted, or is it until they've made enough profit on a shitty design??

    What's stupid is thinking that Blizz has the best interests of the gameplay in mind when they've proven for years that they do not. But they're good at lying about it and spinning a rosy picture.

    As I've said, EVERYTHING they do to the game can be traced back to in some way stretching out your time-logged-in to increase profits, or to sell something in the online Shop.
    Maybe it's time for you to get away from all this conspiracy and evil doing.

    Also don't forget to call the police.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe The Frog View Post
    Pruning is the biggest reason WoW is kill.
    Nope. It's lack of reward.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  10. #30
    Yea they don't even understand 90% of the problems with pvp.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    Maybe it's time for you to get away from all this conspiracy and evil doing.

    Also don't forget to call the police.
    The problem with idiotic denials like this is Blizzes history that many of us are quite aware of. The only retort you have is resorting to calling something "conspiracy theory" when you know goddamned well Blizzard's shenanigans over the years. Pro tip: it's not a "theory" when it's actually true.

    GG Skippy.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    The problem with idiotic denials like this is Blizzes history that many of us are quite aware of. The only retort you have is resorting to calling something "conspiracy theory" when you know goddamned well Blizzard's shenanigans over the years. Pro tip: it's not a "theory" when it's actually true.

    GG Skippy.
    So upset over a video game. It is their game to do with what they wish. You pay for the software, then you pay for access to the servers. Neither of payments guarantees you a "voice" in game design.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Spyro- View Post
    The more pruning, the worst PvP is: Lower skill ceiling, lower room to outplay, mongo melee dominating because casters don't have tools to deal with them (due to the pruning), extremely good players unable to differentiate themselfs much from the average duelist since they don't have tools to do so, etc.

    Due to the garbage PvP meta and the game being so dumbed down, Arena participation has gone down to a point that ArenaJunkies is closing in July, after existing since TBC. PvP is completely dead in WoW with the current meta.

    WotLK was the best PvP meta ever, very fast, the skillcap was very high, and you could really tell the difference when seeing extremely good players (hell, I remember seeing Venruki at 2500 in blues).

    In WotLK I had fun with every spec I tried, nowadays I can't stand any of them, all of them are boring to me, I need more buttons, more depth, more complexity.

    I hope in the next expansion after BfA they reintroduce more abilities or something, I will wait till then.
    And having more buttons isn't necessarily adding skill either, when there is a greater chance of one of them being the perfect choice.
    Less isn't just bad, and more isn't just better.

    Why does this claim about pruning making things so easy not reflect in actual results for most players.
    Why are the minority still the only ones performing in PVP and in PVE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Nope. It's lack of reward.
    And what did World PvP have for rewards outside of the Vanilla PvP ranks ?
    Nothing.
    Yet it was still popular enough for a long time.

    It is a sad state of things when players don't deem fun a good enough reason to do something.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2018-04-21 at 12:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Nope. It's lack of reward.
    Yerp.

    Prior to Legion, i primarily PvPed for my lesiure time in WoW. From Vanilla through now. (Though i did do a lot of 5-mans in Vanilla, and really enjoyed them.). From TBC through WoD, though... PvP was 80% of my playtime.

    I havent set foot into a BG or Arena (not that i ever Arena’d much) since maybe... two months after Legion launched. And i llayed about... two dozen in total across all five toons.

    Lack of meaningful rewards killed it. Completely. And this is from a guy who, during WoD, was dealing with the “meh” PvP design and gearing 5 toons in Conquest gear through Random BGs and Ashran only. No rated.

    Now... theres no point. I can literally get better rewards riding around Argus killing rares and opening chests than i can get unless i do rated and end up in the top 10%.

    PvP needs meaningful rewards to draw the casuals into propping up the ladder/queues.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooti View Post
    So upset over a video game. It is their game to do with what they wish. You pay for the software, then you pay for access to the servers. Neither of payments guarantees you a "voice" in game design.

    I never said anything guarantees a voice in WoW's game design, but that's a cute strawman to set up to conveniently knock down. lul

    Meanwhile, we know that for years Blizz has asked for feedback & suggestions from its players, and have also received theorycrafting and such from the community.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    I never said anything guarantees a voice in WoW's game design, but that's a cute strawman to set up to conveniently knock down. lul

    Meanwhile, we know that for years Blizz has asked for feedback & suggestions from its players, and have also received theorycrafting and such from the community.
    The fact is we pay these asshats for a product, then have to pay an ongoing monthly sub fee to fully use the product. That kinda means it's 'our' game too. If it's just "their game" then why do they bother trying to sell it to others? Why not just play it themselves? kek
    I guess I misunderstood what you meant by this statement.
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  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooti View Post
    I guess I misunderstood what you meant by this statement.
    That's right, you misunderstood it. I didn't say we're "guaranteed" a voice in design. That was your invention.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    That's right, you misunderstood it. I didn't say we're "guaranteed" a voice in design. That was your invention.
    I think it seems from posts, however, that you believe your opinions should matter when designing the game.
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  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooti View Post
    I think it seems from posts, however, that you believe your opinions should matter when designing the game.
    My opinions matter to me when I decide where to spend my money and time. We're on a website/forum where people express those opinions as a matter of course.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    And what did World PvP have for rewards outside of the Vanilla PvP ranks ?
    Nothing.
    Yet it was still popular enough for a long time.

    It is a sad state of things when players don't deem fun a good enough reason to do something.
    The High Marshall/ High Warlord gear was amazing. Naxx-tier, faction themed and looked awesome to boot.
    The rewards were there indeed.

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