[Spoiler] An interesting dialogue about the burning of Teldrassil

[Dellis0991]

Looks like John J. Keeshan is back aswell.....and he and Shandris will squaring off against Captain Arieiel possibly....hope they don't kill him off.

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Damn they pulling out a lot of the roster on both sides...

[Velshin]

Holy fuck:


Is the most elf thing to say (in warcraft). They don't even try to hide it.

I am surprised they didn't use the power of anime nakama to overpower their enemy yet :P

[Qualia]

Didnt the Stormrage novel also see, largely, an end to the nightmare and Xavius?

Whoops turns out they didnt really beat it but were tricked.

Nope, they weren't tricked. They did beat it. However, they never thought it would have been an end to the Nightmare, but was fully aware that it was still around instead. Malfurion noticed that the Nightmare were still there, only pushed back to the Rift of Aln, but he couldn't do anything more about it ("But in one small corner of the Emerald Dream, in a vast, deep fissure, known to the druids as the Rift of Aln and believed to be where the magical realm itself first originated, even the combined efforts of the archdruid and the high priestess could not entirely end the struggle. The Nightmare held firmly in that place, which those of Malfurion’s calling believed bled into the Twisting Nether and the Great Dark Beyond. Gazing into it, Malfurion saw it as a bottomless chasm which radiated with primeval energies that even he dared not investigate"). This is in the line with what was said in Chronicle 3 as well.

Chronicles Vol III sure loved to repeat "corrupted Teldrassil" over and over again. After all, it was created by a Old God follower.

It was corrupted, but it was then cleansed and then blessed to protect from further corruption. Quoting Chronicle 3: "In the wake of the Nightmare's defeat, Dragon Aspect Alexstraza and Ysera decided that Teldrassil needed to be guarded. They both gave it their magical blessings, protecting it from the Nightmare's corruption forevermore". I'd expect that if it was corrupted again, the druids and the Aspect would have realized it.

Let's face it: it'd be pretty weird, or outright illogical for Teldrassil to suddenly be found corrupted by Sylvanas. It'd mean Malfurion (who lived more or less on top of it), the Cenarion Circle and the Aspects - some of the most powerful and attuned to nature beings on Azeroth - couldn't detect something wrong while Sylvanas - who is as far detached from nature as the "good" side of Azerothian could get - could. How would that happen?

[iamthedevil]

Nope, they weren't tricked. They did beat it. However, they never thought it would have been an end to the Nightmare. Malfurion noticed that the Nightmare were still there, only pushed back to the Rift of Aln, but he couldn't do anything more about it ("But in one small corner of the Emerald Dream, in a vast, deep fissure, known to the druids as the Rift of Aln and believed to be where the magical realm itself first originated, even the combined efforts of the archdruid and the high priestess could not entirely end the struggle. The Nightmare held firmly in that place, which those of Malfurion’s calling believed bled into the Twisting Nether and the Great Dark Beyond. Gazing into it, Malfurion saw it as a bottomless chasm which radiated with primeval energies that even he dared not investigate"). This is in the line with what was said in Chronicle 3 as well.


It was corrupted, but it was then cleansed and then blessed to protect from further corruption. Quoting Chronicle 3: "In the wake of the Nightmare's defeat, Dragon Aspect Alexstraza and Ysera decided that Teldrassil needed to be guarded. They both gave it their magical blessings, protecting it from the Nightmare's corruption forevermore". I'd expect that if it was corrupted again, the druids and the Aspect would have realized it.

Let's face it: it'd be pretty weird, or outright illogical for Teldrassil to suddenly be found corrupted by Sylvanas. It'd mean Malfurion, the Cenarion Circle and the Aspects - some of the most powerful and attuned to nature beings on Azeroth - couldn't detect something wrong while Sylvanas - who is as far detached from nature as the "good" side of Azerothian could get - could.

To play devil's advocate, Ysera did die, which could have affected the protection. Along with that fact that the dragons had lost their powers previously. Or had their powers weakened, at least. Whatever it is that happened.

[Toppy]

Nope, they weren't tricked. They did beat it. However, they never thought it would have been an end to the Nightmare, but was fully aware that it was still around instead. Malfurion noticed that the Nightmare were still there, only pushed back to the Rift of Aln, but he couldn't do anything more about it ("But in one small corner of the Emerald Dream, in a vast, deep fissure, known to the druids as the Rift of Aln and believed to be where the magical realm itself first originated, even the combined efforts of the archdruid and the high priestess could not entirely end the struggle. The Nightmare held firmly in that place, which those of Malfurion’s calling believed bled into the Twisting Nether and the Great Dark Beyond. Gazing into it, Malfurion saw it as a bottomless chasm which radiated with primeval energies that even he dared not investigate"). This is in the line with what was said in Chronicle 3 as well.


It was corrupted, but it was then cleansed and then blessed to protect from further corruption. Quoting Chronicle 3: "In the wake of the Nightmare's defeat, Dragon Aspect Alexstraza and Ysera decided that Teldrassil needed to be guarded. They both gave it their magical blessings, protecting it from the Nightmare's corruption forevermore". I'd expect that if it was corrupted again, the druids and the Aspect would have realized it.

Let's face it: it'd be pretty weird, or outright illogical for Teldrassil to suddenly be found corrupted by Sylvanas. It'd mean Malfurion, the Cenarion Circle and the Aspects - some of the most powerful and attuned to nature beings on Azeroth - couldn't detect something wrong while Sylvanas - who is as far detached from nature as the "good" side of Azerothian could get - could.

Did you forget that Malfurion suddenly forgot what the nightmare was at the start of Val'shara and that Cenarious immediately fell to it? Alongside all the greatest Druids since none of them could see it coming?

The druids are ragingly incompetent when it comes to spotting and dealing with the nightmare.

[iamthedevil]

Did you forget that Malfurion suddenly forgot what the nightmare was at the start of Val'shara and that Cenarious immediately fell to it? Alongside all the greatest Druids since none of them could see it coming?

The druids are ragingly incompetent when it comes to spotting and dealing with the nightmare.

It's that or they are just way to cocky and underestimate the nightmare. Even that makes no sense seeing as how there was a whole book about this.

It has to be that the nightmare can just get extremely strong extremely quickly for whatever magical reason this time.

[Toppy]

It's that or they are just way to cocky and underestimate the nightmare. Even that makes no sense seeing as how there was a whole book about this.

It has to be that the nightmare can just get extremely strong extremely quickly for whatever magical reason this time.

Well I mean they were unaware of it for ages as it grew, did nothing about it when it was actively taking over dragons too. The Druids are the last people to go to when it comes to void anything. There has never been a time when they competently went against it in any way shape or form.

[Frontenac]

I can't understand all this human hate, considering we are all humans... Humans will always be at the center of the Alliance precisely because we are humans and that litterature/theater/cinema, well, any storytelling, even games, are a reflexion on the human condition, exposing the qualities and flaws of humanity, warning us of the wrong paths we may take or offering us a glimpse of hope. What Shandris said was just that: the writer is telling us that we have more potential than we may believe, even with our obvious flaws.

Also, Shandris' line is a classic exemple of the many tropes that you will find on many, if not most, settings concerning humanity. Star Trek, Star Wars, Dungeons & Dragons, WoW, you name it.

1-Humans are mortal and short-lived compared to other races.
2-Humans in general are average.
3-Humans are diverse (many cultures, languages, nations, planets, etc.)
4-Humans are numerous and... fertile. They are often more numerous than all other races.
5-Humans are versatile and unpredictable.
6-Humans are diplomats. They are always the ones who will be the catalysts for alliances (Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Warcraft). It is even a human racial trait in WoW.
7-Humans are ambitious and driven.
8-Humans, as heroes or heroic organizations (Rebel Alliance, United Federation of Planets, the Alliance) will hold lofty ideals : justice, liberty, honour, respect, peace, knowledge. Non humans that are part of the organization will share those values.
9-If the world is dominated by an Evil Empire, it will generaly be human. And the multiracial rebellion fighting it will be lead by humans.
10-Humans are looked down by older, longer lived races. (Vulcans, Minbari, Tolkien elves, Warcraft elves, well all elves as a matter of fact...).
11-Some individuals from the long lived races may learn to like humans (Sarek, Delen, Finrod Felagund, Elwë, now Shandris) or even love them (Luthien and Beren, Sarek and Amanda Grayson, Delen and Sheridan, Alleria and Turalyon).

This list is non-exhaustive. Numbers 3,4,6,7,8 are reasons enough why Humans will always be the center of the Alliance. And it is not a bad thing either, because it gives the Alliance a center of gravity, a personality. Humans are not only the bulk of the Alliance army, but they are its spiritual center. Even the Night Elves are linked to the Light, now that we know that Elune has created the Naaru (or some of them).

The change of Warchief for a non-orc was in fact a disservice to the Horde. The Orcs were the core of what the Horde was all about. It's the tribal races (orcs, tauren, trolls) that gave the Horde its colour. With Sylvanas as a Warchief, the Horde has lost a lot of its personality and focus. And with so many Allied Races, I wonder if both factions don't risk to be somewhat watered down.

[iamthedevil]

Well I mean they were unaware of it for ages as it grew, did nothing about it when it was actively taking over dragons too. The Druids are the last people to go to when it comes to void anything. There has never been a time when they competently went against it in any way shape or form.

aye for being in their "realm" they are really bad at understanding and dealing with it.

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I can't understand all this human hate, considering we are all humans... Humans will always be at the center of the Alliance precisely because we are humans and that litterature/theater/cinema, well, any storytelling, even games, are a reflexion on the human condition, exposing the qualities and flaws of humanity, warning us of the wrong paths we may take or offering us a glimpse of hope. What Shandris said was just that: the writer is telling us that we have more potential than we may believe, even with our obvious flaws.

Also, Shandris' line is a classic exemple of the many tropes that you will find on many, if not most, settings concerning humanity. Star Trek, Star Wars, Dungeons & Dragons, WoW, you name it.

1-Humans are mortal and short-lived compared to other races.
2-Humans in general are average.
3-Humans are diverse (many cultures, languages, nations, planets, etc.)
4-Humans are numerous and... fertile. They are often more numerous than all other races.
5-Humans are versatile and unpredictable.
6-Humans are diplomats. They are always the ones who will be the catalysts for alliances (Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Warcraft). It is even a human racial trait in WoW.
7-Humans are ambitious and driven.
8-Humans, as heroes or heroic organizations (Rebel Alliance, United Federation of Planets, the Alliance) will hold lofty ideals : justice, liberty, honour, respect, peace, knowledge. Non humans that are part of the organization will share those values.
9-If the world is dominated by an Evil Empire, it will generaly be human. And the multiracial rebellion fighting it will be lead by humans.
10-Humans are looked down by older, longer lived races. (Vulcans, Minbari, Tolkien elves, Warcraft elves, well all elves as a matter of fact...).
11-Some individuals from the long lived races may learn to like humans (Sarek, Delen, Finrod Felagund, Elwë, now Shandris) or even love them (Luthien and Beren, Sarek and Amanda Grayson, Delen and Sheridan, Alleria and Turalyon).

This list is non-exhaustive. Numbers 3,4,6,7,8,9 are reasons enough why Humans will always be the center of the Alliance. And it is not a bad thing either, because it gives the Alliance a center of gravity, a personality. Humans are not only the bulk of the Alliance army, but they are its spiritual center. Even the Night Elves are linked to the Light, now that we know that Elune has created the Naaru (or some of them).

The change of Warchief for a non-orc was in fact a disservice to the Horde. The Orcs were the core of what the Horde was all about. It's the tribal races (orcs, tauren, trolls) that gave the Horde its colour. With Sylvanas as a Warchief, the Horde has lost a lot of its personality and focus. And with so many Allied Races, I wonder if both factions don't risk to be somewhat watered down.

I'm going to guess the Forsaken hate Humans the most because

a- Gilneas shut their gates and wouldn't help when they were being attacked by the scourge, completely shut them out.

b- Stormwind completely rejected them after they were turned. Killing their emissaries.

They were completely betrayed by their own kind.

[Qualia]

Did you forget that Malfurion suddenly forgot what the nightmare was at the start of Val'shara and that Cenarious immediately fell to it? Alongside all the greatest Druids since none of them could see it coming?

The druids are ragingly incompetent when it comes to spotting and dealing with the nightmare.

Even though he couldn't tell exactly it was the Nightmare at first (as it has changed), Malfurion did realize that there was a corruption just fine, the moment he looked at it even. The fact that he failed to handle the corruption later had nothing to do with his ability to *detect* it. Unless you are claiming that Malfurion was corrupted in the Burning of Teldrassil scenario and thus, didn't even attempt to act against a supposedly corrupted Teldrassil, he should and would have been able to detect any corruption on it way before Sylvanas could. He even has the support of the Wisps - spirits of nature - here as well.

The line "Darkness... Sylvanas... is this what you saw... what you wished to save us from?" is more likely Aeriel (spelling?)'s last words before dying.

[Frontenac]

aye for being in their "realm" they are really bad at understanding and dealing with it.

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I'm going to guess the Forsaken hate Humans the most because

a- Gilneas shut their gates and wouldn't help when they were being attacked by the scourge, completely shut them out.

b- Stormwind completely rejected them after they were turned. Killing their emissaries.

They were completely betrayed by their own kind.

I was speaking of human players hating on WoW humans.

[iamthedevil]

I was speaking of human players hating on WoW humans.

lol oh well then. When it comes to fantasy, human are the same as any other race. That's the fun of fantasy. These are fantasy humans.

[Toppy]

I can't understand all this human hate, considering we are all humans... Humans will always be at the center of the Alliance precisely because we are humans and that litterature/theater/cinema, well, any storytelling, even games, are a reflexion on the human condition, exposing the qualities and flaws of humanity, warning us of the wrong paths we may take or offering us a glimpse of hope. What Shandris said was just that: the writer is telling us that we have more potential than we may believe, even with our obvious flaws.

Also, Shandris' line is a classic exemple of the many tropes that you will find on many, if not most, settings concerning humanity. Star Trek, Star Wars, Dungeons & Dragons, WoW, you name it.

1-Humans are mortal and short-lived compared to other races.
2-Humans in general are average.
3-Humans are diverse (many cultures, languages, nations, planets, etc.)
4-Humans are numerous and... fertile. They are often more numerous than all other races.
5-Humans are versatile and unpredictable.
6-Humans are diplomats. They are always the ones who will be the catalysts for alliances (Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Warcraft). It is even a human racial trait in WoW.
7-Humans are ambitious and driven.
8-Humans, as heroes or heroic organizations (Rebel Alliance, United Federation of Planets, the Alliance) will hold lofty ideals : justice, liberty, honour, respect, peace, knowledge. Non humans that are part of the organization will share those values.
9-If the world is dominated by an Evil Empire, it will generaly be human. And the multiracial rebellion fighting it will be lead by humans.
10-Humans are looked down by older, longer lived races. (Vulcans, Minbari, Tolkien elves, Warcraft elves, well all elves as a matter of fact...).
11-Some individuals from the long lived races may learn to like humans (Sarek, Delen, Finrod Felagund, Elwë, now Shandris) or even love them (Luthien and Beren, Sarek and Amanda Grayson, Delen and Sheridan, Alleria and Turalyon).

This list is non-exhaustive. Numbers 3,4,6,7,8 are reasons enough why Humans will always be the center of the Alliance. And it is not a bad thing either, because it gives the Alliance a center of gravity, a personality. Humans are not only the bulk of the Alliance army, but they are its spiritual center. Even the Night Elves are linked to the Light, now that we know that Elune has created the Naaru (or some of them).

The change of Warchief for a non-orc was in fact a disservice to the Horde. The Orcs were the core of what the Horde was all about. It's the tribal races (orcs, tauren, trolls) that gave the Horde its colour. With Sylvanas as a Warchief, the Horde has lost a lot of its personality and focus. And with so many Allied Races, I wonder if both factions don't risk to be somewhat watered down.

Dont call it an Alliance and say that the other races matter when they clearly dont is the core of it.

We've come to the point where we can ask: Why does the Alliance even have races other than human?

Its less that I hate humans, more than I hate that they are all that matters.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Humans and the side kicks.

[TomatoBisque]

Also, Shandris' line is a classic exemple of the many tropes that you will find on many, if not most, settings concerning humanity. Star Trek, Star Wars, Dungeons & Dragons, WoW, you name it.

This is exactly why people hate it. It's unoriginal. It's trite. It's boring. Why include fantasy races and cultures if their main purpose is to show how much cooler and better humans are? I don't read fiction to feel self-important about my species over a bunch of other species that don't even exist

If you don't think you can write a story about non-human characters that are interesting and compelling to the point where you have to make most important/major characters humans so the audience can relate, then don't include non-human races in your setting in the first place. There's nothing wrong with that (see a song of ice and fire).

[Qualia]

This is exactly why people hate it. It's unoriginal. It's trite. It's boring.

99.99% of stuffs nowadays are unoriginal, though. In the end, I believe it's more of how they execute it than how original of an idea it was. I'd love to see any sort of plot with tropes that I have never experienced anything remotely similar before, but I haven't seen any in the last 10 years or so (this isn't limited to just WoW), and I don't think I will in the next 10 years, if ever. Thus, I find the idea of hating a story or a plot point because it's unoriginal is weird - there just isn't anything completely original nowadays.

[FelPlague]

Look like Teldrassil confirmed as old god corrupted and Sylvaanas knew

now toppy, i would agree with this, i would understand if she did not want to tell the alliance, worried they would not beleive her, and instead guard it.
but i think you miss out that the horde gathers AS MANY CIVILIANS AS POSSIBLE, AND EXECUTES THEM IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TOWNS, MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
they do not just burn down the tree to stop some "corruption" they commit mass genocide on civilians.

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I hope its not Shandris saying that, the Alliance doesn't need more human sucking up, specially not from Night Elves.

it is most likely sylvanas or aerlia and shandris dies.

[Deleted]

It was corrupted, but it was then cleansed and then blessed to protect from further corruption. Quoting Chronicle 3: "In the wake of the Nightmare's defeat, Dragon Aspect Alexstraza and Ysera decided that Teldrassil needed to be guarded. They both gave it their magical blessings, protecting it from the Nightmare's corruption forevermore". I'd expect that if it was corrupted again, the druids and the Aspect would have realized it.

Considering how Xavius played the druids, Malfurion and Ysera in Legion, I have my strong doubts.

[Wildmoon]

Considering how Xavius played the druids, Malfurion and Ysera in Legion, I have my strong doubts.

There was never a time Malfurion was not aware of something wrong with the dream.

[Deleted]

There was never a time Malfurion was not aware of something wrong with the dream.

And yet Xavius played him, every single time. Creation of Teldrassil, the Nightmare War and in Legion.