So much for the "squish"... Ilvl 320 What? oO

[Emerald Archer]

I was just comparing two raids end bosses. I didn't want to compare anything before that because it would be unfair to compare the top dps doing almost 3M (this the number you picked) in antorus with tier gear to EN bosses done with dungeon gear. I admit Xavius was bad pick but still its stupid comparing dungeon gear to tier bonus raid gear with NLC bonuses.

You are still free to find me that 10x increase if you want to argue about the semantics.

Why not compare st fights? Fire mages padded useless dmg onto tentacles you ignored on xavius, and you got extra dps cds and for the top ranks extra dmg from the nightmare stuff.

You may as well have compared ursoc to antoran high command, it's of the same relevancy.

[Thetruth1400]

I figured since they were doing an ilvl and stat squish they'd go down to like TBC levels, since we didn't need one for a a few expansions and many many raid tiers. Wouldn't it be less work for them if they did that?

This.

The problem is; they refuse to have top tier raid gear from this expansion be the base entry into the first raid tier (even on normal or LFR mode) be the standard. What I mean by that is after the squish, current Mythic level gear is going to cap out at 250 ilvl and therefore the next expansion's first raid (normal mode) could drop ilvl 250 gear as well.

Sure, people who are currently in mythic level gear won't see a drop upgrade until into the first Heroic raid, but that's such a small minority that we shouldn't be marking ilvl upgrade progression based on them.

The problem exists because they insist on having 4 levels of raids, and even the LFR mode they want to feel rewarding and therefore have to be an ilvl upgrade. Doing it that way leads to massive bloat because not only does the LFR raid gear need to feel like upgrades, but each difficulty above that has to have even stronger gear or else it doesn't feel like an upgrade. They're also obsessed with this "15% or it doesn't feel like an upgrade" model, which causes the bloat creep to creep in even faster.

[Corroc]

Why not compare st fights? Fire mages padded useless dmg onto tentacles you ignored on xavius, and you got extra dps cds and for the top ranks extra dmg from the nightmare stuff.

You may as well have compared ursoc to antoran high command, it's of the same relevancy.

You quoted the post where I actually said my original reason why I didn't do that. If you dont like the reason then that's your problem.

[Emerald Archer]

You quoted the post where I actually said my original reason why I didn't do that. If you dont like the reason then that's your problem.

Comparing last bosses because "last bosses" makes no sense when the fights are nothing alike. You got called out because your reasoning was idiotic and the equivalent of comparing a ST boss to an AoE boss.

"But guyssss, this guy hitting 10 mobs wasn't that far off the dps of a guy who was hitting 1!!!!"

But lets ignore the fact the ST boss of that raid (Ursoc) was a minor dps check boss, with a 300k dps check.

My problem though :^) You're allowed to spam misinformation.

[Deleted]

Why are people obssesed with big numbers i liked them...

[Veyne]

What did you expect from a solution to an imaginary problem?

[Nevcairiel]

The problem is; they refuse to have top tier raid gear from this expansion be the base entry into the first raid tier (even on normal or LFR mode) be the standard. What I mean by that is after the squish, current Mythic level gear is going to cap out at 250 ilvl and therefore the next expansion's first raid (normal mode) could drop ilvl 250 gear as well.

Getting into a new expansion and not seeing any new gear for weeks would be terrible design no matter for how small of a minority.
If you follow the same logic, then Heroic raiders won't get loot until first raids? Normal raiders not until Mythic dungeons?

Way to entirely destroy the early-game progression, which IMHO is one of the most fun times in an expansion.

Bigger numbers are not a problem, and by slightly reducing the increase you only delay the inevitable, there is nothing "solved" here.

[Corroc]

Comparing last bosses because "last bosses" makes no sense when the fights are nothing alike. You got called out because your reasoning was idiotic and the equivalent of comparing a ST boss to an AoE boss.

"But guyssss, this guy hitting 10 mobs wasn't that far off the dps of a guy who was hitting 1!!!!"

But lets ignore the fact the ST boss of that raid (Ursoc) was a minor dps check boss, with a 300k dps check.

My problem though :^) You're allowed to spam misinformation.

Ok I can repeat it. I compared last bosses because it would be unfair to compare the first bosses when they are done with dungeon gear instead of raid gear. No one even did 3 million dps at antoran high command at the start of mythic. If you still want to argue about this, pick a fight and spec instead of calling me out on something I already admitted was bad comparison.

[Sorrior]

They always half ass everything. Leveling scaling? Nope, 60 lvl is the max in good zones, you wish it scaled to 100. Item squish? Yea old items are squished, but raid items will have +200 ilvl, next tier will have another +200 ilvl and nothing really changed.

Wellll with what 4 raid difficulties no wonder. They really need to stop with that and just give the diffucult raids their own thing or make it heroic again i stead of mythic. Not saying lower the difficulty but put what is now mythic back into heroic and put lfr abd normal into just normal and let people que for that

[Emerald Archer]

I compared last bosses because it would be unfair to compare the first bosses when they are done with dungeon gear instead of raid gear.

If you look at garothi, Antorus first boss right now, those logs you see aren't with dungeon gear.

Just like those fire mage logs you linked were all with 2 legos, full mythic raiding gear etc. So "they had dungeon gear" actually makes 0 sense.

I agree with you that we aren't doing 10x more, but you saying we didn't do 300k back then, is very untrue when that is what the dps check was on the ST boss.

We did 300k back then, but we do not do 3mil now.

But at no point in your comparisons have you looked at "start of raid tier" numbers.

[MrLachyG]

Max ilvl per expansion:

Classic: 80
TBC: 164. Increase: 84.
Wrath: 284. Increase: 124
Cata: 416. Increase: 132
MOP: 616 Increase: 200
WOD: 795 Increase: 180
Legion: 1000 Increase: 205

The speed of the scaling steadily increased until MoP. It's far too fast now, especially between raids. Squishes allow them to keep going.

your list isn't totally accurate anyway. you've put the max ilvl of items (cloak in MoP, ring in WoD, leggos in Legion) which isn't the actual ilvl of the expansion

[Corroc]

But at no point in your comparisons have you looked at "start of raid tier" numbers.

Actually I have but since no one was focused on the actual numbers instead of just calling me idiot for looking at Xavius fight (where the best dps still have 75% of the dmg done the boss instead of adds, fire mage max dps comparison).

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000
Ursoc dps, 50th percentile. You can highlight the first two weeks with your mouse to see the lines more clearly.
You can see that saying everyone was doing 300k dps is abit understatement when most of the dps is closer to 320k than 300k. 10 specs were certainly over 320k dps. 5 specs were over 340k. Its almost 10% difference to the claimed 300k. And its not even the top dps, 50th percentile could be anything from low ilvl players doing good dps to good dps dying early.

We can compare ursoc to antorus first boss, which I dont think is fair since you can cleave the cannons for stat padding but still lets compare.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...&timespan=1000 again 50th percentile and first two weeks highlighted. You have to highlight it yourself.
Most of the dps falls between 1.45M and 1.3M dps. 13 specs.

So basically we ended up lot closer to my predictament of 3 than the other 10. In my personal opinion the real difference is something closer to 5. You have 2 player power boosts from artifact weapon ( new traits and NLC) and 3 different ilvl ups from tiered instances.

[Zyler]

I'd just like it to not scale up as fast is all. Going from 110's Ilevel to 120's ilevel is quite a jump. I'd be happy with 200ish ilevel at 120.

[Raugnaut]

Dumb question, but this means the whole world is getting squished, right? Not just the new content? So a 120 should still have no problems soloing cata raids..

Last I checked, blizz hasn't balanced the older raids, so at 120, MoP raids are impossible to do, and Cata is a pain in the ass. Granted, last I checked was more towards the start of alpha, but still.

Also, people, do you REALLY want 2 lvl 40s to be killing your lvl 100 alt? Because a BC lvl of squish, you'd basically gain almost no power from 40-100, which would allow for PvP of that level.

[Mixxy]

Wait so our effective stats are going back to levels they were at like, almost a decade ago... and people are pissy that we're not being rewound back far enough?

The hell do people actually WANT? Do you wanna gain like, 1 stat per level?

[Corroc]

Wait so our effective stats are going back to levels they were at like, almost a decade ago... and people are pissy that we're not being rewound back far enough?

The hell do people actually WANT? Do you wanna gain like, 1 stat per level?

Most of the people who complain, want raids to be similar to vanilla. They want the first raids to be relevant so the gear you get from them would be still good in the end of the expansion. Which in my opinion doesn't make any sense. I hated doing mc,bwl and zg clears in vanilla while progressing AQ.

[Djuntas]

People could just stop playing WoW as a gear simulator, and instead not wanting huge gear increases every raid tier as the only reason wanting to play the darn game.

[demonyaa]

Max ilvl per expansion:

Classic: 80
TBC: 164. Increase: 84.
Wrath: 284. Increase: 124
Cata: 416. Increase: 132
MOP: 616 Increase: 200
WOD: 795 Increase: 180
Legion: 1000 Increase: 205

The speed of the scaling steadily increased until MoP. It's far too fast now, especially between raids. Squishes allow them to keep going.

Your logic is sound but your numbers are a bit off:

Classic: 92
TBC: 164
Wrath: 284
Cata: 416
MOP: 582 (Celestial Cloaks of Virtue: 616)
WOD: 750 (Legendary quest stage 5 ring)
Legion: 985 (Legion Legendaries 1000, Artifact 1014).

So the increase between expansions excluding "special" items is:
Classic to TBC: +72
TBC to Wrath: +120
Wrath to Cata: +132
Cata to MOP: +166
MOP to WOD: +168
WOD to Legion: +235 (The increase from WOD to legion is even higher since you can equip 2 legendaries and one artifact).

Still this just reinforces that the gap between expansions is ever increasing. I have no problems with inflated numbers, except when they impact performance. Huge numbers have a significant impact on performance. Diablo is plagued by slowdowns at high keystones because the calculations are just too intense, and it 4P content. WOW requires much more optimization because of large scale content (80 player battlegrounds, mythic raids where everyone plays to perfection, large heroic raids, etc).

Squishes are unfortunately necessary. And I say unfortunately because they take away development time.

[Mirishka]

We'll be at Cataclysm level gear in the first raid. Blizz, wouldn't it make more sense to really squish it and keep it squished?
From the frontpage off MMO Champ.

320 bracers
https://beta.wowdb.com/items/161071-...oe-cloth-wrist

110 pre-raid mace
https://beta.wowdb.com/items/161118-marrow-shatter

Tanks would have had like 100 million health in BFA without a squish, and you're complaining about toons with ~50k?

[Scrotch]

Classic: 92
TBC: 164
Wrath: 284
Cata: 416
MOP: 582 (Celestial Cloaks of Virtue: 616)
WOD: 750 (Legendary quest stage 5 ring)
Legion: 985 (Legion Legendaries 1000, Artifact 1014).

So the increase between expansions excluding "special" items is:
Classic to TBC: +72
TBC to Wrath: +120
Wrath to Cata: +132
Cata to MOP: +166
MOP to WOD: +168
WOD to Legion: +235 (The increase from WOD to legion is even higher since you can equip 2 legendaries and one artifact).

It should also be noted that WOD managed to still increase the ilvl growth from MOP while have one less raid tier.

Short of shrinking expansion content to have less raid tiers, they really need to slow down the exponential curve of character growth a little. It can't be an efficient use of dev time to have to do a numbers squish of some sort every other expansion.