Returning player: Raider.io, the saving grace?

[Snorri]

I just had 4 people leave my group dungeon run when they realized we would not finish in time. When I asked them why they explained they don't want broken keys on their history, which would give them a worse score. Getting a good score was more important than finishing the dungeon and getting loot. I hate this system so badly and wish it could be removed.

[Deleted]

I just had 4 people leave my group dungeon run when they realized we would not finish in time. When I asked them why they explained they don't want broken keys on their history, which would give them a worse score. Getting a good score was more important than finishing the dungeon and getting loot. I hate this system so badly and wish it could be removed.

I believe they are misinformed. For as far as I'm aware, Raider.IO only scores you based on your best run for that dungeon, no matter how many depleted keys you've done in the past.

People leaving has always been a thing however, it's one of the risks of pugging. Your best bet for preventing it from happening in the future is to make your expectations for the run clear from the start. Do you expect to three star it, one star it, or perhaps you're only interested in finishing it even if it gets depleted? If anyone expresses annoyance at the prospect of the run possibly not being super smooth and fast, replace them immediately as they are likely to leave the moment something goes wrong anyway.

The tool is by no means perfect, but it's far better than basing your decision on item level or raid rankings.

[therealbowser]

What would you propose to take it's place for groups looking to pug high level mythic+? Luck of the draw? Pure item level? A lengthy research project into the warcraftlogs of each applicant?

I'm not suggesting anything take its place. I dislike it, but that doesn't mean I think it should be abolished or replaced. It's not raider.io's fault that the community uses it in an abusive way, but none the less it promotes a toxic playerbase and as such, I refuse to use it.

It's a personal choice; I don't mean to judge people that choose to use it themselves -- that is your prerogative.

For the record, raider.io like any tool that is used to determine the value of a player (gearscore, itemlevel, etc) should be used as one of many tools to help decide what is viable for a player to join. For instance, if their score is not perfect but their itemlevel is sufficient, a quick chat or armory review can determine if they are adequate for the dungeon.

In a perfect world, players would try to set a minimum requirement at best, and not simply disqualify anyone that doesn't dramatically over-qualify for the content, but that is never going to happen.

It's all irrelevant; this post isn't going to open any eyes or give any ideas that haven't already been casually dismissed, people just want super easy runs and effortless recruiting for them, and so people who don't qualify will struggle to meet expectations and those that do will basically circle jerk those that aren't at their level according to an arbitrary score.

Again, I've nothing against raider.io... it's just being abused like any other system with a 'score', even itemlevel is abused and I certainly don't think that should be removed. It's the playerbase that makes it bad, not the addon.

PS: This post is not directed at anyone who uses the addon in this thread, nor is it a sweeping generalization. I'm just saying that a lot of people who use the addon use it in this fashion, do please don't take this post personally. I'm not attacking you.

[Aggrophobic]

I just had 4 people leave my group dungeon run when they realized we would not finish in time. When I asked them why they explained they don't want broken keys on their history, which would give them a worse score. Getting a good score was more important than finishing the dungeon and getting loot. I hate this system so badly and wish it could be removed.

But thats not the systems fault, thats thoes players not knowing how it works.

[W1shm4ster]

My experience with raider io is, that i get declined with 977 ilvl equiped, 11/11 mythic, cuz i don't have a score of like 2k + for a 16+ key, even though i even got server first keystone master back then, they don't give a shit, but at the same time i don't want to simply do some 20+ keys so i get a good score. This is the same bullshit to me like back then Gearscore was, blocking people that probably have all the experience for their class needed, but get blocked cause of some numbers they don't like.

Also it feels really bad for new people to ever get a proper +15 key group. I personally do look at ilvl and think about what a new character could've as ilvl, if the ilvl fits, i invite them anyway, but if i see really low ilvl, i think you don't want to put any effort into gearing up properly and not just get carried through the key.

I can understand that people don't really feel like going reaaaally slow through a key or maybe even wipe, but overall it just poisons the system for new people and even for experienced people like, that just don't feel bothered to farm some numbers even through their experience etc. should qualify them for a spot (if your specc/class fills what they want).

/salt

[JackWest]

I'm not suggesting anything take its place. I dislike it, but that doesn't mean I think it should be abolished or replaced. It's not raider.io's fault that the community uses it in an abusive way, but none the less it promotes a toxic playerbase and as such, I refuse to use it.

It's a personal choice; I don't mean to judge people that choose to use it themselves -- that is your prerogative.

For the record, raider.io like any tool that is used to determine the value of a player (gearscore, itemlevel, etc) should be used as one of many tools to help decide what is viable for a player to join. For instance, if their score is not perfect but their itemlevel is sufficient, a quick chat or armory review can determine if they are adequate for the dungeon.

In a perfect world, players would try to set a minimum requirement at best, and not simply disqualify anyone that doesn't dramatically over-qualify for the content, but that is never going to happen.

It's all irrelevant; this post isn't going to open any eyes or give any ideas that haven't already been casually dismissed, people just want super easy runs and effortless recruiting for them, and so people who don't qualify will struggle to meet expectations and those that do will basically circle jerk those that aren't at their level according to an arbitrary score.

Again, I've nothing against raider.io... it's just being abused like any other system with a 'score', even itemlevel is abused and I certainly don't think that should be removed. It's the playerbase that makes it bad, not the addon.

PS: This post is not directed at anyone who uses the addon in this thread, nor is it a sweeping generalization. I'm just saying that a lot of people who use the addon use it in this fashion, do please don't take this post personally. I'm not attacking you.

I get what you mean man. I have seen so many people with like 1k score saying "2.5k/3k+" or something(and if its an alt I will still see their main's score). Also, as much I as agree that 2.5k or so is overkill for a "simple" 15, most people I meet under that score never bother to even learn what the dungeon bosses do, or what to interrupt/stun on trash, which often leads to finishing much slower, or even not finishing if said person cant even live through some boss mechanics. It's stupid to "require" someone to do all dungeons on 15-16, but at the same time is also stupid to have the run ruined due to some players' ignorance

[therealbowser]

I get what you mean man. I have seen so many people with like 1k score saying "2.5k/3k+" or something(and if its an alt I will still see their main's score). Also, as much I as agree that 2.5k or so is overkill for a "simple" 15, most people I meet under that score never bother to even learn what the dungeon bosses do, or what to interrupt/stun on trash, which often leads to finishing much slower, or even not finishing if said person cant even live through some boss mechanics. It's stupid to "require" someone to do all dungeons on 15-16, but at the same time is also stupid to have the run ruined due to some players' ignorance

Yeah, this is an attitude I can agree with. What I like to do when I run mythics or raids or whatever else (I rarely do, it's stressful and it's rarely enjoyable) is purposely give adequately geared players a chance if I feel they are serious about participating and not looking for a free ride (a quick conversation usually covers this). I end up with (mostly) successful groups that aren't a complete faceroll, but at the same time reward players who want to participate and give them a better chance of getting into other groups in the future.

It's not practical though and I hardly expect others to do the same; it's just something I do, or more specifically used to do since I am hardly even playing WoW at the moment, let alone regularly leading pick up groups for raids or mythic+. This is doubly true since failing a mythic + is far more punishing than wiping a few times on a regular mythic or a raid, but I mean... the line can be drawn somewhere, right? It doesn't have to be "dramatically overqualify or I won't invite you lolol".

[JackWest]

My experience with raider io is, that i get declined with 977 ilvl equiped, 11/11 mythic, cuz i don't have a score of like 2k + for a 16+ key, even though i even got server first keystone master back then, they don't give a shit, but at the same time i don't want to simply do some 20+ keys so i get a good score. This is the same bullshit to me like back then Gearscore was, blocking people that probably have all the experience for their class needed, but get blocked cause of some numbers they don't like.

Also it feels really bad for new people to ever get a proper +15 key group. I personally do look at ilvl and think about what a new character could've as ilvl, if the ilvl fits, i invite them anyway, but if i see really low ilvl, i think you don't want to put any effort into gearing up properly and not just get carried through the key.

I can understand that people don't really feel like going reaaaally slow through a key or maybe even wipe, but overall it just poisons the system for new people and even for experienced people like, that just don't feel bothered to farm some numbers even through their experience etc. should qualify them for a spot (if your specc/class fills what they want).

/salt

I have hard time to believe you link "server first: keystone master" and ppl still decline you. Thats more than enough proof the you know the dungeon. I can see if they decline you for antorus achievements, coz that means nothing in dungeons. Also, you dont need to do 20s. As long as you have done everything on 15+, your score will be enough to get you into most pugs. If nothing works you can also push your own key. And about new people, there are so many catch up mechanics, gearwise, that its more than fast. Score-wise, they'd have to level it, just like everyone else did. I dont see any reason why new players should skip the "learning" process and be semi dead weight(if you are returning player, ppl can still see your old "score").

Lemme give you personal example. I didnt care about any M+ score for most of legion. I even hated the whole M+ concept. When I came back after break from WoW during ToS, I decided to give it another chance. I did some runs with ppl from the guild I joined, who happened to be competent and know what they are doing, and I realised with a proper group, it was actually quite fun. I had just came back, and also rerolled, so my score was 0 at the start. At first I was capping for the first few weeks. When I decided I wanted to raise my score, I started getting all dungeons done on similar lvl, and then on higher. Like, first most to 12 then to 15, then to 18 and now I am working on getting them to 20. Lately I have been pugging most keys I do(including when I "push" for score around 18s) and hardly getting declined. Ofc it happens from time to time, but for the most part no issues. Probably it also helps I do M+ as blood dk.

One last thing, I dont believe addons to screen people are "poisoning the system". The players who dont care if they drag their group down by refusing to learn the dungeon/raid and/or their class is whats poisoning it. Those who refuse to provide any benefit to their group, but expect to get taken in and participate

[Smorc]

My experience with raider io is, that i get declined with 977 ilvl equiped, 11/11 mythic, cuz i don't have a score of like 2k + for a 16+ key, even though i even got server first keystone master back then, they don't give a shit, but at the same time i don't want to simply do some 20+ keys so i get a good score. This is the same bullshit to me like back then Gearscore was, blocking people that probably have all the experience for their class needed, but get blocked cause of some numbers they don't like.

You get over 2k score by doing every dungeon in +15 in time, no need at all to go into +20. Not sure if you are complaining or explaining with your opening sentence, but if it's the first, there are probably several other ~970-980 people in most queues to +15's and +16's. If they, by a simple mouse over, can see that you are lower score than another player, they dont really have any reason to invite you. Without the addon people had probably invited the first 980-players that queued, all the addon do is to provide information. Before the addon people wrote "link r.io" in the title, there isnt really anything different. Without the addon nowdays people would probably ask you to link your r.io or tell them your score, wait until someone which meets their requirement queued, check them and invite.

Also curious why people should care about Realm first Keystone Master at all. If your guild were to pug a last dps for mythic Argus, would you invite someone who linked mythic Xavius? Or Realm First Xavius for that matter. It proves that you are a decent player and have been decent at m+ earlier, nothing more. A lot has changed since people got their first Keystone master, its 1,5 year ago! New routes, new cheeses, new dungeons, a lot of "new" tactics etc. I can guarantee most people would rather take someone they (as far as possible, by score) know can perform in recent times than one who did +15 first on his server 1,5 year ago - when there were far fewer people doing mythic + and even fewer trying to push.

[Smorc]

My experience with raider io is, that i get declined with 977 ilvl equiped, 11/11 mythic, cuz i don't have a score of like 2k + for a 16+ key, even though i even got server first keystone master back then, they don't give a shit, but at the same time i don't want to simply do some 20+ keys so i get a good score. This is the same bullshit to me like back then Gearscore was, blocking people that probably have all the experience for their class needed, but get blocked cause of some numbers they don't like.

You get over 2k score by doing every dungeon in +15 in time, no need at all to go into +20 as someone mentioned.

Not sure if you are complaining or explaining with your opening sentence, but if it's the first, there are probably several other ~970-980 people in most queues to +15's and +16's. If they, by a simple mouse over, can see that you are lower score than another player, they dont really have any reason to invite you. Without the addon people had probably invited the first 980-players that queued, all the addon do is to provide information. Before the addon people wrote "link r.io" in the title, there isnt really anything different. Without the addon nowdays people would probably ask you to link your r.io or tell them your score, wait until someone which meets their requirement queued, check them and invite.

Also curious why you think people should care about Realm first Keystone Master at all. If your guild were to pug a last dps for mythic Argus, would you invite someone who linked CE Xavius? Or Realm First Xavius for that matter. It proves that you are a decent player and have been decent at m+ earlier, it does not prove that you are good at m+ today, on that character, in that dungeon etc (not saying a decent r.io-score does that). A lot has changed since people got their first Keystone master, its 1,5 year ago! New routes, new cheeses, new dungeons, a lot of "new" tactics etc. I can guarantee most people would rather take someone they (as far as possible, by score) know can perform in recent times than one who did +15 first on his server 1,5 year ago - when there were far fewer people doing mythic + and even fewer trying to push. Some people will probably invite since it looks good, but a realm first KM-player who have not done m+ on 1,5 years (as far as the leader knows) is no guaranteed success. And don't you think a lot of people are faking that achievement? I got whispered three of them for one +15 group on my alt last week out of ~60 applicants. (I checked them all, one of them was actually real)

[SkagenRora]

You get over 2k score by doing every dungeon in +15 in time,

But tbh.. who would actully bother to do that? there's so many dungeons.. and you only need 1 per week anyway

[Deleted]

But tbh.. who would actully bother to do that? there's so many dungeons.. and you only need 1 per week anyway

That late into the x-pack people look for new goals, like improving their score in an external tool.

Also - those "970 11/11" people who utterly blow in m+15 do exist. A lot of them. They are easily outperformed by people who know the content much better, but with lower ilvl.

[nicbizz]

Really weird if they skip maw, unless its like a 20+ on tyrannical week or something; maw is the fastest dungeon available.

Usually I see Seat and Lower get skipped all the time. And for some reason people are terrible at HoV

Habaron will cease-and-desist your pug if they can’t dodge scythe (which is the majority of ~2k pugs). Even on a 15.

[Enkrypt]

Great system.

If I want to run Mythic+ competitively, this separates the "I only do 1 key a week and I'm kinda casual" player from potentially coming in and ruining our timed run. This sytem works great for those that seek similarly skilled, like-minded individuals to PUG with in the M+ environment. You can see whether someone is actually progressing through their score by doing high levels of all dungeons, and it's helped me and friends find adequate pugs. It works great for people who know how it works, and how it ranks players.

[Gaidax]

My experience with raider io is, that i get declined with 977 ilvl equiped, 11/11 mythic, cuz i don't have a score of like 2k + for a 16+ key

I almost never had that happen and I'm about same. I queue once a week for +15 run and really - it's no issue to get accepted just based on ilvl alone. There is more than enough people who do not give a flying fuck about raider.io for something as trivial as weekly +15 run.

Like yeah you have some people who tryhard when it's not necessary, but really if you're 977, you will be in in no time.

[Palapop]

I dislike it alot. I have 3 alts and a main which i run through a +15 at least (i might push to the lower 20somethings on my main). I am more than capable of clearing 15s on any affix yet because I don’t grind out lots and lots of m+ my score is low. I mostly do them with my guild but if I am away at the start of the week or the weekend then getting into a pug group is near impossible on my lower geared alts (and by lower geared I mean 950+ which is more than enough)

The thing I dislike the most is people setting up groups asking for 2k+ score while they themselves have a low score. I understand it’s usefull for some but it’s not for me.

This. Exactly my words and opinion about this addon.

HUGE DISLIKE and it should be disabled.
As ex-hc raid leader (lk 10%) I think I'm more than capable of clearing any M+ with any affix.
Altho, I clear just 1 M+ weekly for chests. So I have problem with alts. People reject me cus of my low "raider.io" score. And yet, at the end of the dun I do 2m+ avg dps on my 958 dk.

[Deleted]

But tbh.. who would actully bother to do that? there's so many dungeons.. and you only need 1 per week anyway

Simple, run a different dungeon each week and you'll have it in no time. This m+ season started back in November/December or something, if you haven't run each dungeon at this point then you're not even trying.

[Marrilaife]

Simple, run a different dungeon each week and you'll have it in no time. This m+ season started back in November/December or something, if you haven't run each dungeon at this point then you're not even trying.

Yeah, show me all the casuals who are "trying" to run those seat keys to up their score. Only score runners run seat. And tbh I'm not sure how being able to run seat correlates to being able run eye of azshara or darkheart thicket. Judging from what hangs in the queue forever and what fills in no time, people would rather run DHT / EOA / Nelth / Maw than BRH, seat, cathedral or lower kara.

Many people end up rerunning the same key as much as possible, because they want a relic or something.

- - - Updated - - -

If I want to run Mythic+ competitively, this separates the "I only do 1 key a week and I'm kinda casual" player from potentially coming in and ruining our timed run.

Again, I don't think ANYONE has anything against people sorting by raider.io on high keys (above 20 and such), most casuals don't run them, don't care to run them, don't queue for them, and aren't affected at all by what the m+ pros are doing in their +25. You won't see a random guy deciding one day to stumble into +20 with 0 m+ experience.

[Nnyco]

You guys can say whatever you like.
Fact is I am geared to the teeth and have ok mythic score, but I never get invited because people with higher score are always around.

In vanilla, I had 0 issues getting into groups. Literally 0. Mostly because the pool of competing players for spots wasn't as large, and because I interacted with people and made friends.

Then run m+ with your friends now, vanilla gonna be the same shit with invites. There gonna be a similar system on classic, guranteed.

[amaze123]

This. Exactly my words and opinion about this addon.

HUGE DISLIKE and it should be disabled.
As ex-hc raid leader (lk 10%) I think I'm more than capable of clearing any M+ with any affix.
Altho, I clear just 1 M+ weekly for chests. So I have problem with alts. People reject me cus of my low "raider.io" score. And yet, at the end of the dun I do 2m+ avg dps on my 958 dk.

You are living in the past. I have an ex For the Hord player in my 2-days-guild who just perform average and is shit in m+. The game evolved and the people who are actually trying are much better than back then.
Also you just showed the addon is doing its job. It seperates the people who put in some work, spam m+ and are probably good at it and the people who do run once a week and only think they are good at it.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, show me all the casuals who are "trying" to run those seat keys to up their score. Only score runners run seat. And tbh I'm not sure how being able to run seat correlates to being able run eye of azshara or darkheart thicket. Judging from what hangs in the queue forever and what fills in no time, people would rather run DHT / EOA / Nelth / Maw than BRH, seat, cathedral or lower kara.

Many people end up rerunning the same key as much as possible, because they want a relic or something.

Only people who 100% pug avoid this keys, because they never learned them. If you really enjoy m+ you will starting running brh and lower kara just for the big pulls. Coen was nerfed so many times that it is one of easiest dungeon to run intime in highkeys. Seat was a little bit annoying at first but you will still run it if you get the key in your group. Maybe reduce the level to 2 under your average highest keys, but do it 10 times and the runs are as smooth as in any other dungeon.
The skill difference in m+ are massiv. I would never bother to run with a tank with a low score anymore, because they just do not know how to pull e.g. the full hallway in brh or the bigpulls in nel. And doing just one pack at a time really is the exact opposite of fun.
Would some random with low m+ exp pull his weight to chest a 15? Probably. Would someone with alot of exp enjoy running with him? Probably not.