So much for the "squish"... Ilvl 320 What? oO

[Valkaneer]

No they need to remove difficulty levels from the game. Cut atleast 50% difficulty lelevel option from game. So they dont have to have such big difference in gear. And i dont really care about baby casuals lossing their noob friendly lfr or normal.

People like yourself need to stop thinking you are the majority because you are far far from it. You wouldn't have agame without those LFR and Normal subs.

[Nevcairiel]

also fact that numbers are very hard to calculate in your head. Player having 20k hp got hit for 4580 dmg you can easly say he still got 15 420 hp. Gl calculating with 7 000 000 hp getting hit for 1 234 754 dmg.

Thats a UI failure on your end if anything. The higher the numbers get, the more irrelevant the lowest parts of the numbers become. so instead of 7 000 000, why not look at 7000k and 1234k damage, or 7M and 1.2M damage, then you have nice and handleable numbers again.

[Emerald Archer]

I was very specific on it being Heroic.

Yes, and I'm asking for you to show the same proof to something relevant. The actual power of the first raid vs the last raid. Heroic dps doesn't matter.

[Sorrior]

Last I checked, blizz hasn't balanced the older raids, so at 120, MoP raids are impossible to do, and Cata is a pain in the ass. Granted, last I checked was more towards the start of alpha, but still.

Also, people, do you REALLY want 2 lvl 40s to be killing your lvl 100 alt? Because a BC lvl of squish, you'd basically gain almost no power from 40-100, which would allow for PvP of that level.

They still need to rebalance those raids or risk losing a decent number of players who mog hunt either as a time killer or even their main gameplay mode

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Most of the people who complain, want raids to be similar to vanilla. They want the first raids to be relevant so the gear you get from them would be still good in the end of the expansion. Which in my opinion doesn't make any sense. I hated doing mc,bwl and zg clears in vanilla while progressing AQ.

Is it so wrong to not want crazy ilv and squishes?

Also funny udea instead of an ilv squish how about a LEVEL squish? As is they removed so many skills, talent points and more leveling feels HORRIBLY disjointed and sucks tbh.

My suggestion shrink the actual level when mixed with level syncing. Making vanilla say and outland a say 1-30 wrath and cata 30-40- mists of pandaria and wod 40,-50 with legion 50-60.

With how few skills we have it honestly would work.

Whiich is kinda sad..i think we do have fewer skills then a fresh 60in vanilla then live at 120.

Another route is to accept this shit happend abd do the letter route the once suggested like "120b" instead of 120,000,000,000

As it is they just keep making things crazier and worse .frankly they nay be nearing a point where either WoW 2 or a cata veyond cata revamp is needed and EVERY ZONE needs a rewirk just to work with the bew paradigm.

Actuallly thinking about it i am not sure their heavy storytelling/rng happy/current raid/dungeon model and even class design work with the old systems..add in stat squish and maybe WoW 2 isn't a bad idea. They could build a new engine from the ground up or use the one they did for SC2 to make the game new blizzard wants.

All in all i feel something needs to be done but the way they are doing it feels disjointed and wrong while negating large amounts of gameplay styles. And i am not sure now if the game can truly support what they are doing bar this being a step towards a WoW 2 in all but name.

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People could just stop playing WoW as a gear simulator, and instead not wanting huge gear increases every raid tier as the only reason wanting to play the darn game.

So few would play sadly. I agree btw. Hell i am in the wierd camo of feeling like say mything should award titles/transmog not power.

If it is true many raid for the sake of a challenge then why would it matter if it didn't award ilv upgrade gear anymore?

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That would leave it up to Blizzard to create something else for them to want from raids. Gearing up makes every other aspect easier.

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I said why its a bad thing. It makes everything nearly worthless before max level. They are making leveling completely redundant and pointless other then something they gate max things behind. If it gets too bad, It'll be the the point where you could realistically use the same item from level 1 straight through to nearly max level. You'll be left sitting there like, I don't feel like my character is "leveling up". Sure, you would get a new level, but your relative power would hardly budge. It breaks immersion in the leveling process.

Plus the entire issue of how few skills we have spread out over what 120 lvs? No new talents and do we even get any new abilities in bfa?

Honestly they need to let alpha testers test the leveling too or at least see when skills are learned because this is truly getting ridiculous..also maybe invest in an AA system not limited to one expansion instead of leveling.

[Nevcairiel]

If it is true many raid for the sake of a challenge then why would it matter if it didn't award ilv upgrade gear anymore?

Challenge is one thing, but progression is also a nice thing to have. Not everyone is made equally well of a player, so some may not see later bosses if they don't improve through gear, no matter if they play for the challenge or not. Even if you want to challenge yourself, not everyone is capable of reaching the same performance, so gear helps.

Not to mention further incentives for repeated clears, I like to raid for the challenge, but that doesn't mean I don't like getting an upgrade along the way, or even on repeat clears down the line.

[Sorrior]

Gear you get before max level SHOULD be worthless to a max level. That is how WoW is, and how it should be, you get to max level and do the max level content, the leveling is just a short step before reaching it.

You can see leveling as a "gate" to things you have access to at higher levels, which is the same as how nearly every game with leveling progression works. They want you to hit max level. Leveling to max level SHOULD be worth it. You shouldn't be able to go "Nah, I don't feel like leveling" when a new xpac comes out.

I don't understand what this level 1 thing is, are you complaining about heirloom gear? Your sign of progression is higher numbers. Mobs won't get easier when you're always vsing harder things. That would be bad game design, if things just got easier and easier forever until everything was 1 shot, just so you could feel like you were getting stronger?

It just boils down to, leveling is not an important part of WoW. End game content is WoWs thing, its hype mode, the goal. Leveling is a means to an end. If you want an mmo that focuses on the leveling experience, this is the wrong one for you.

Then tgey need to fix leveling with honestly a total makeover. Be it a level squish or make leveling an experience again

As is and i have been saying/coming to realize as i reply here. The newway wow operates(titanforging precise numbers as opposed to fun/wacky effects, fewer skills and ALOT more) just conflict with the original base design so much. Either a WoW 2 or a total overhaul expansion needs to be made.

As it is level is nowhere near as fun as it used to be and the lack of skills is bad enough. But no real stat increase too? Hell no. AND cutting off a VERY large number if places to mog farm?

Between level scaling abd this stat squish..the game may be in a pretty bad way bar them retuning old raids/content while adding far more skills or bringing back talent trees

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Isn't it possible to solo all MoP raids currently? I've always assumed you can solo all raids except previous expansion raids. So you should be able to solo WoD raids next expansion, or at least I'd hope so.

You can even solo wod raids to some degree if not full on at 910-920 ilv.

Remember we have people SOLOING current expansion stuff like say Mythic dungeons..IMO power creep has gone WAY too far when you can do that bar some massive cheese mechanics or crazy item combos as in off the wall who the f would think of that combos..

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They could just get rid of 4 tiers of raid difficulty which is the reason ilvl is bloating the way it is.

Raiding isn't even going to be the future of end game content, it's going to be M+. So we realistically only need a Norm level difficulty LFR (queuable) and Heroic (or call it Mythic if people want to feel cool).

Or nix even lfr call that normal make normal queable and bam 2 raid tiers again..also ditch titanforging

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People like yourself need to stop thinking you are the majority because you are far far from it. You wouldn't have agame without those LFR and Normal subs.

Sadly i would say the diehard raiders are probably the biggest hindrance to mmos.. The more an mmo focuses on raiding alone the more it seems to suffer. Leveling and casual style stuff gets to far more..and even leveling as a game in itself can be very appealing if done like old wow with regular new skills and/or points to use with a bit of a challenge.

Ffxiv is also sufferring from raider infused power creep and expectations of special treatment.

As i see it if someone truly loves raiding getting the best ilv shouldm't natter the raiding itself should be why you do it

[Teri]

Levels gotta be big enough, so low levels don't have decimal damage.

[Azelas]

Why those numbers need to be lower exatly?? Its just number lol

Because 19,736,231 doesn't MEAN anything. Everything after the 7 is just visual clutter that doesn't add to any recognition of anything. They might as well be gone and numbers would be much clearer. Or are you ok with Artifact Power being in the fucking billions in Legion?

[kendro1200]

Bliz got it in their craw that items needed to be in increments of 5 and the game has since seen scaling issues. The start and end of expansions are out of whack because of this. Going back to 3/4 level increases would help deter this.

They also got rid of many stats and systems that helped deal with hp and damage number bloat. Stats in Vanilla and BC were spread out across main stats, what we know today as secondary stats, resistances and stats we know longer see today like hit, weapon skill ranks, defense, resilience, etc. Those stats we don't see in modern WoW were a great way to provide meaningful progression without having to double a player's dps or health pool every raid tier.

But yeah, increments of 5 on everything is the bane of existence. Titanforging and what not also super exasperated that problem too.

[Sorrior]

Challenge is one thing, but progression is also a nice thing to have. Not everyone is made equally well of a player, so some may not see later bosses if they don't improve through gear, no matter if they play for the challenge or not. Even if you want to challenge yourself, not everyone is capable of reaching the same performance, so gear helps.

Not to mention further incentives for repeated clears, I like to raid for the challenge, but that doesn't mean I don't like getting an upgrade along the way, or even on repeat clears down the line.

No i get that the issue is when you put the HIGHEST rewards like that then you get oeople going in who even with the best gear cannot do it.

Why i say make 1 or two ilv sets maybe let say heroic drop the same ilv. While reducing it to two difficulties a normal and heroic like we did before.

Not everyone IS suited to raiding(note i love it i just am getting old mixed with the whole VIDEO MODS AND OUTGEAR BY 100 ILV OR GTFO crowd drives ne nuts. Said crowd prooobably shouldn't be raiders imo)

See i think the gear has become more important to many then the raid. Thus my suggestions. I would never say end raiding just make it about the raid not just the gear

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They also got rid of many stats and systems that helped deal with hp and damage number bloat. Stats in Vanilla and BC were spread out across main stats, what we know today as secondary stats, resistances and stats we know longer see today like hit, weapon skill ranks, defense, resilience, etc. Those stats we don't see in modern WoW were a great way to provide meaningful progression without having to double a player's dps or health pool every raid tier.

But yeah, increments of 5 on everything is the bane of existence. Titanforging and what not also super exasperated that problem too.

You also left out crazy trinkets or weapon procs that could do really crazy shit when combined as well as talents that bar being a high end raider DID allow customization and sone crazy fun builds(shockadin anyone)

Buut i feel like the game has ditched choice abd fun for ease of tuning/simplified gearing. The old system was better imo because with the right gear even a prior expansion item could still be good..maybe even bis due to a rare proc mixing with a new one which i do NOT think is bad game design as it means less outdated content

[Raikh]

I love how the premise of this thread is that 110 gear is supposedly only ilvl110 and that there is a 200ilvl gap between 110 and 120 gear which is simply not true at all. Just because some random 110 item got datamined doesnt mean that 110 gear will generally be on that ilvl. WOuld be beautiful if people invested a little bit more time into research and not jsut link 2 newly datamined items and throw a fit a bout it.

Just for comparison. a template character on the alpha right now is wearing 185 gear, which is roughly what hc ToS gear was so roughly ilvl915 atm. Antorus mythic gear has 240 ilvl, titanforging up to 265 on alpha. SO as of current ilvl chnages, we ar enot even jumping 100 ilvls from current high end mythic gear to baseline raid mythic gear, which is currently lsited as 360 (400 for azerite armor) in the dungeon journal. While the gap mgiht very well increase, since mythic dungeons and mythic raids are oddly close in ilvl atm, we are very far from some exaggerated 200 ilvl difference.

And for the rest. Well why would you expect a new number squish going even much further back than the original one? If you squish numbers too much lower levels will start to look very silly or your power level wouldnt change at all through a big chunk of the levelling process making any sort of gear upgrades disappear once you reached a certain point until you are on the current expac. It could also lead to nubmers to drop midleveling due to entering a differently scaled zone depending on how you approach the squish.
Neither of those 3 options sound really good and I'd very muchr ather sit on wrath-to-cata-ish numbers than goign back to 1k crits just for the sake of it and have the already very much neglected levelling portion of the game look even sillier than it already is.

And the gear sclaing itself wont change, even with the current exponential growth they have problems drawing th elines where things are guaranteed upgrades. If they lower the scaling curve people might go back to wearing stuff from the first content for the entire expac because the raw stats budget cant brute force past some neat effect or itemization differences etc. and getting gear upgrade sis one of the biggest drives for playing end game content in wow for many many players.

[Drusin]

I never understood the people that care about the squish, I'm guessing it's the people with floating combat text on. 100 and 100,000,000 are the exact same as far as my logs are concerned and stat weights will always be <=1

[Deleted]

Because 19,736,231 doesn't MEAN anything. Everything after the 7 is just visual clutter that doesn't add to any recognition of anything. They might as well be gone and numbers would be much clearer. Or are you ok with Artifact Power being in the fucking billions in Legion?

yes cause that dont bother me my focus is not on numbers in this game xD

[Spl4sh3r]

I feel like they can just go away from damage numbers completely. Have a boss be at 100% (no other number) and each attack we do is a % of that 100% in damage, even if its below 1%. Then any damage meters can convert it to any number they want to create a similar damage meter as to now. Say instead of 100% they convert it to 1 billion or any other number we want to convert to with increments of a zero added or removed. They do have a system with the scaling zones for that.

[Azelas]

yes cause that dont bother me my focus is not on numbers in this game xD

then why are you even in this thread I dont get it.

[Valkaneer]

Yes, and I'm asking for you to show the same proof to something relevant. The actual power of the first raid vs the last raid. Heroic dps doesn't matter.

Well, you showing 2 logs is basically anecdotal evidence, on a very short boss fight which can allow for some lucky RNG. I know what I saw in Heroic and I know what I see now.

[Zantos]

I don't understand what this level 1 thing is, are you complaining about heirloom gear? Your sign of progression is higher numbers. Mobs won't get easier when you're always vsing harder things. That would be bad game design, if things just got easier and easier forever until everything was 1 shot, just so you could feel like you were getting stronger?

It just boils down to, leveling is not an important part of WoW. End game content is WoWs thing, its hype mode, the goal. Leveling is a means to an end. If you want an mmo that focuses on the leveling experience, this is the wrong one for you.

The level 1 thing is the fact that if gear gets to inflated and our levels get to high, you could use the same items from level 1 straight to the newest set of levels. Yes, things Should get easier to kill. That level 5 boar shouldn't still pose a challenge at level 90 because your power has hardly moved due to ilevels being so squished. Ilevel - stats and strength. The more you go up, the greater the strength, obviously.

You're right, leveling is already Not that important. Removing the ilevel or making it so you go up Maybe 1 ilevel every 2-3 levels means, why bother? I am not wanting a deep meaning behind leveling. I am making a point. Most people already see it as annoying. If you won't even get stronger, then really, Why even bother having it at all? You can't just go to level 110, staying the same relative strength, then see a HUGE boost at 111. That makes no sense and shows in a very clear way, that they have zero cares about the leveling process and its just sorta there.

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Plus the entire issue of how few skills we have spread out over what 120 lvs? No new talents and do we even get any new abilities in bfa?

Honestly they need to let alpha testers test the leveling too or at least see when skills are learned because this is truly getting ridiculous..also maybe invest in an AA system not limited to one expansion instead of leveling.

I like the Old talent system and spells having ranks. It truly felt rewarding when suddenly, Judgement rank 2 was a thing.

The major argument for removing them was "everyone has a cookie cutter build and they change one or two talents depending on the fight". Literally the Exact same scenario right now.

[ShmooDude]

They said in a Q&A that the plan is to do a small squish at the end of every expansion, instead of a big one every couple expansions. They removed the 100 Ilvl jump between old content, so that the curve between classic and legion is really slow. You'l gain like, 1-200 ilvl's between level 1-110, then you get a single Ilvl bump in BFA. 110 questing gear is 185, so that checks out. They said the idea is to then bring BFA gear inline with the levelling curve, when the next expansion launches (a squish to BFA specifically) then reapply the usual 100ilvl bump - in theory, the questing gear for the next expansion would then be like, 25-50 ilvls higher than BFA's 120~ quest rewards. not 200ilvls like we usually get. It would take many expansions to get near 1000 ilvl then.

They showed a graph during the Q&A in question, which I cannot find Here's my paint version.
https://i.imgur.com/XILAe4F.png
https://imgur.com/XILAe4F

This.

The stat squish was and never has been intended to stop exponential stat growth. Since it's not intended to stop exponential stat growth, it will always be needed. I am super happy they're planning it every expansion now (that's what I wanted last expansion too).

Some key quotes from the dev water cooler on the original squish:

Hey, our stats are growing exponentially.
...
It’s not exactly a surprise that we were going to end up here, and we knew where we were going every step of the way, yet regardless, here we are.
...
The numbers grew so much primarily because we wanted rewards to be compelling. Upgrading from a chestpiece that has 50 Strength into one that has 51 Strength is undeniably a DPS increase for the appropriate user, but it’s not a very exciting reward.
...
So we arrived at this point in a logical fashion, and we don’t really think we should have handled things any differently.
...
If your answer is that stat budgets don’t have to grow so much in order for players to still want the gear, our experience says otherwise

It's a pretty safe bet that exponential stat growth is never going away. Now you can argue against a squish and that they should use some other method (I disagree) but proposing that they permanently solve the problem by going away from exponential stat growth is just going to fall on deaf ears.

[Chickat]

They should change the difficulty ilev jump from 15 to 8.
Per tier jump from 30 to 20.

lfr-100
normal-108
heroic-116
mythic-124


Raid 2 tier 1.
lfr 110
normal-118
heroic-126
mythic-134

Raid 3 tier 2

Lfr-130
normal-138
heroic-146
mythic-154

Raid 4 tier 3
Lfr-150
normal-158
heroic-166
mythic-174

[SkagenRora]

Please, just don't. All this do is fk up for people trying to do old raid for transmogg & Mounts.