Kul'tiran and Zandari fleets - strongest in the world - how and why?

[Enthusiastic Steward]

I personally look at it as these two nations have the strongest fleets left. The Horde and Alliance have been skirmishing, and losing ships, since at least Cata and with the constant drain on resources because Deathwing/Garrosh/demons/an Old God did it/etc their navies have not really been able to be sufficiently built up, at best maintaining a status quo. And the largest new naval force that was constructed is on another planet, because nobody has thought to construct a sea portal for our Draenor navies.

The Kul Tiras and Zandalari empires are oceanic to begin with, so it would stand to reason they have substantial navies, and their ships haven't been actively engaged in conflict and being lost in battle for several years, while the Horde and Alliance fleets have been taking a beating.

So by default Kul Tiras and Zandalar have the strongest remaining fleets on the high seas. At least that's how I look at it.

[Gamespud]

I personally look at it as these two nations have the strongest fleets left. The Horde and Alliance have been skirmishing, and losing ships, since at least Cata and with the constant drain on resources because Deathwing/Garrosh/demons/an Old God did it/etc their navies have not really been able to be sufficiently built up, at best maintaining a status quo. And the largest new naval force that was constructed is on another planet, because nobody has thought to construct a sea portal for our Draenor navies.

The Kul Tiras and Zandalari empires are oceanic to begin with, so it would stand to reason they have substantial navies, and their ships haven't been actively engaged in conflict and being lost in battle for several years, while the Horde and Alliance fleets have been taking a beating.

So by default Kul Tiras and Zandalar have the strongest remaining fleets on the high seas. At least that's how I look at it.

This is a decent part of it. Stormwind seems to maintain a very large fleet and yet as soon as the horde player reaches Zandalar, Talanji wrecks the entire Alliance fleet. Meaning they went from having an advantage to.. equal footing.. hence the race for allies.

[TickTickTick]

Why do you expect a story to be written in a way that it leads to all the possible future threads? It's impossible and any existing story has a potential to add something that wasn't mentioned before.

Was it ever mentioned that Kul Tiras / Zandalar is prospering? Probably no. Was it ever mentioned that Kul Tiras / Zandalar are NOT prospering, then suddenly they are? Hell no. Thats the point of the story that is not set in stone from the get go.

It's like complaining that ancient Greeks had no idea about America, then it gets explored and it suddenly is there.

Not everything revolves around player characters and not everything is happening to their knowledge. For all we know, that random General Goods vendor could get some of their wares from Kul Tirian vendor who sailed to Stormwind.

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There is a point where you cant suspend the disbelief and immerse yourself any longer when nothing makes sense.

How does that not make sense? Do you expect the king of Stormwind to report to player character all trade-visitors? Would that make sense?

[Devonitar]

True, that's wierd.

We had to build ships ad hoc (including fucking carriers and subs) on a different planet in a different age in a different dimension, but now it's just too damn hard

[Netherspark]

From the Warcraft 2 manual:

Before the First War, the far ranging merchant ships of Kul Tiras made it the most prosperous nation in the known world. When the Orcs began to raid the coastal settlements of Lordaeron, Admiral Proudmoore took it upon himself to construct an armada of warships. At the behest of his long time friend Anduin Lothar, Proudmoore has pledged the assistance of his merchant-nation to the Alliance.

[Aucald]

True, that's wierd.

We had to build ships ad hoc (including fucking carriers and subs) on a different planet in a different age in a different dimension, but now it's just too damn hard

Building ships takes time and there's a war on so it's in the interest of both the Alliance and the Horde to pursue already built and powerful fleets that are tried and tested, as well as cultivating allies. Plus it's a narrative hook into Zandalar and Kul Tiras.

[Florena]

For Kul'tiras it's just because they were the 'navy nation' in the Alliance back in WC 2. I don't think Blizzard really thinks through where populations for armies or resources really come from. They were an island nation and an island nation needs a good navy to keep invaders off their shores I guess? I don't think any research went into it beyond 'Britain had a historically great navy and they were an island nation so let's have an island nation with a great navy.'

Zandalar really confuses me as I had been under the impression it had mostly sunk and that Zul got a bunch of them onto boats to escape but I wasn't ever under the impression they ever had a powerful navy in lore in particular, I think it was made in order for the Horde to have a new counter to Kul'tiras who has in lore been established to have a great navy. But maybe I'm wrong and there was lore to suggest the zandalari had a lot of navy power before.

[Imperium Romanum]

The narrative is odd from time to time. During Vanilla and up to Cataclysm, any mention of Kul Tiras was defined as a "once strong naval nation", implying that it was heavily weakened post Third War and after Jaina took half the fleet to make Theramore. Now there is some logic in that and the initial thought was that Stormwind would take the reigns as the Human super nation in land and sea. That is heavily suggested with the presence of its harbour later and the immense expanse at a later point.

Now, have numbers ever been mentioned about fleets? The answer is "Yes.". Right before MoP, Varian is seen in a cinematic claiming:

"200 ships at my disposal yet the one carrying my son goes missing."

Since the Alliance had not implemented the High King title then, it is most likely that Stormwind alone possessed at least 200 ships on the prelude of MoP. If we theorise that vessel production dropped 100% (which is impossible) since then, the 7-8 ships that were lost by Zandalar ( as mentioned on the Alliance intro before Kul Tiras) during the scenario is a good figure but not an outright disaster.

So quantity wise, the Alliance has probably not lost a mighty lot. Of course many wars have happened and the fleet could have been dropped to half if each war resulted in lost ships here and there. But then again, the suggestion that the Battle for Lordaeron happens the same way as the Normandy landings happened in WWII, it seems that the Alliance naval power is still, quite strong.

So what seems to be the case? Zandalar likely possesses a mass of a fleet themselves and the Alliance try to stay a step ahead with Kul Tiras on their side. I still doubt this nation has more ships than Stormwind, but I guess they have a long tradition. It makes it a matter of quality as such.

[MikeBogina]

It is kinda hard to believe that these 2 island nations have the biggest fleets in the world, when both factions have most of the world under control. Blizzard doing a shitty job of representing the factions fleets and ports in game probably has a lot to do with this, for instance Orgrimmar has a single dock and Forsaken have no port at all(despite there being a port town north of brill in the books).

Only Stormwind has been shown to have a harbor(favoritism) but the others should have them aswell in the lore. Unless something bad happens to these fleets, it's hard to believe that they're needed this badly, especially since the Horde just got the Nightborne's city and the Iron Horde could also make some awesome ships and we know the Night Elves have a fleet in the alpha(omg I hope it gets destroyed)

[Verdugo]

It is kinda hard to believe that these 2 island nations have the biggest fleets in the world, when both factions have most of the world under control. Blizzard doing a shitty job of representing the factions fleets and ports in game probably has a lot to do with this, for instance Orgrimmar has a single dock and Forsaken have no port at all(despite there being a port town north of brill in the books).

Especialy since islands imply that forests are quite limited, you know, wood, thing they need to make ships.

[MikeBogina]

Especialy since islands imply that forests are quite limited, you know, wood, thing they need to make ships.

exactly, and Zandalar has mountains and a desert aswell making it worse.

[MechaCThun]

Never before has Blizzard really established military might between nations, as to who has the largest standing army and such.

Just so happens this expansion takes place across great bodies of water, and 2 nations in the lore we have yet to see in-game are on islands.

Also, it's a war expansion. As people have been saying in other threads, it's plot convenience that Kul Tiras and Zandalar just so happen to have the mightiest navies in Azeroth to span these great bodies of water... in this wartime expansion.

Now, let's look at it from a lore perspective.

Kul Tiras: absent from world affairs for the past ___ years/expansions (vanilla to now) would allow them all of this time to build up their navy. They haven't been really worried about casualties from a war with the Burning Legion, time traveling to another planet, fending off a gigantic world-breaking dragon or funneling their troops to a frozen glacier to battle the undead. All of this time has been used to bulk up their military might, and their boats.

Zandalar: I'd assume the same as above, minus the real focus on just simply improving military might. Back in Cataclysm we knew the Zandalari trolls were attempting to expand their empire across the planet so a well stocked navy would be needed to fight opposition. I am unsure if Zandalari would be considered on the same level of "military nation" like Kul Tiras would be, but back to the plot convenience argument, they too are a mighty civilization.

Also I think people forget the "island expeditions" aspect of the expansion. It most certainly is just a new feature of content for the players to engage it but it still has lore implications: many different uncharted islands ripe for the picking. In the lore I could imagine both Kul Tiras and Zandalar have already been doing such "island hopping and claiming" in the past. They would have to fend off pirates, monsters, naga, the works.

I wouldn't look too much into it. Just be in awe of these 2 great powers about to clash.