Macron Treats America to a Full-Scale Takedown of Trumpism

[Mic_128]

Macron, a foreigner, would be a credit to America and Americans would he ever want to officially become one because what he has done here, in our most hallowed chamber, was nothing less than historically noteworthy comprehensive defense of America's highest principles, our true destiny and a rejection of the backwardness of you and your President.

As someone who's not American, let me just say that's the sort of spouting that seems more in line with Trump's rhetoric. America is a country. A good one, certainly a flawed one, but just a country. It's not Link and congress isn't the Sacred Hall of the Seven Sages. Stop acting like you're something chosen by a higher power.

[Dontrike]

Stop acting like you're something chosen by a higher power.

When did Skroe say anything that he was special in that regard?

[Mic_128]

When did Skroe say anything that he was special in that regard?

See the bolded sections.

[Realitytrembles]

lies, isolationism, biogtry and backwardness.

I'm against the lies/bigotry/backwardness.

The isolationism? Gets my vote.

F this ungrateful planet. As long as the liberty of Americans is secured, the rest of the world can sht and fall back in it. As Bismarck said: "Alone among the great powers, the Americans have unique advantages. They are bordered on two sides by weak neighbors, and on two others by fish."

Anyone coming at us from any of those directions would be met with a pummeling of nuclear weapons.

No American blood, no American treasure should be spent unless we are directly attacked.

[Dontrike]

See the bolded sections.

I'm seeing a lot of "our" not "me" or "I" there. Doesn't look like Skroe is saying that about himself in the least. I mean if he does it that often it should be easy for you to find.

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In basically most of his posts.

Then it should be easy to come up with an example then.

[Shaderas]

Oh crap how did I forget this. Thanks for reminding me I'm responding to a "man" who enthusiastically backed a pedophile for office. I really need to make a sticky note or something.

Put it in your sig so you don't forget

[Skroe]

I'm seeing a lot of "our" not "me" or "I" there. Doesn't look like Skroe is saying that about himself in the least. I mean if he does it that often it should be easy for you to find.

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Then it should be easy to come up with an example then.

Forgive them. They're having a difficult time dealing with the whole concept of America being the nation of the idea rather than just another ethno-cultural division of Earth's landmass. It's the whole thing of how anybody can be American, but I, an American of half-hispanic/half italian descent, can't be a German, or French or Swedish. I could certainly be a citizen of those countries, but not truly of it.

By contrast anyone can choose to be of America. They just have to sign onto and live by our shared principles.

Apparently that concept means I think we're beknighted by god or something to some folks... who knows. It's just a definitive difference between this country and others.

And as for the rest of it all, I mean America did build and does defend the liberal world order since World War II. It has a responsibility to what it built. But that's just basic history.

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I'm against the lies/bigotry/backwardness.

The isolationism? Gets my vote.

F this ungrateful planet. As long as the liberty of Americans is secured, the rest of the world can sht and fall back in it. As Bismarck said: "Alone among the great powers, the Americans have unique advantages. They are bordered on two sides by weak neighbors, and on two others by fish."

Anyone coming at us from any of those directions would be met with a pummeling of nuclear weapons.

No American blood, no American treasure should be spent unless we are directly attacked.

Yes, I am well aware and do not need to be reminded of your antediluvian foreign and security policy that is entirely detached from the way things actually are or truly ever will or ever shall be.

I'd like America to build a Star Destroyer too. We're both not getting anything close to what we want.

[Kiri]

I'm against the lies/bigotry/backwardness.

The isolationism? Gets my vote.

F this ungrateful planet. As long as the liberty of Americans is secured, the rest of the world can sht and fall back in it. As Bismarck said: "Alone among the great powers, the Americans have unique advantages. They are bordered on two sides by weak neighbors, and on two others by fish."

Anyone coming at us from any of those directions would be met with a pummeling of nuclear weapons.

No American blood, no American treasure should be spent unless we are directly attacked.

Trump does not really stand for isolationism though. I mean, why would he? He has business interests all over the world. A truly isolationist course would just be to his own detriment.

No, he does not seek isolationism, he seeks protectionism. His rhetoric shows it quite nicely. When he talks about trade, he does not want to stop all trade with the world or anything. He just wants better terms. He wants others to buy more American goods. He wants things to go his way in the international community and throws his weight around wherever he can. That is not isolationism.

If anything, what he does and what you seem to cheer on there, is a rejection of soft power and falling back on hard power. Intimidation rather than cooperation. Wanting the biggest piece of the cake, instead of taking steps that increase the shares for everyone. The US has interests abroad, and even under Trump, it is pursuing them. He is just not willing to make short-term concessions for long-term gain. Because that does not befit his strong man persona, does not fit his image as a winner. If he has a choice between spending a few million on a military parade or invest it into foreign aid, which could benefit the US drastically in ten years, he will pick the parade any day.

As someone who's not American, let me just say that's the sort of spouting that seems more in line with Trump's rhetoric. America is a country. A good one, certainly a flawed one, but just a country. It's not Link and congress isn't the Sacred Hall of the Seven Sages. Stop acting like you're something chosen by a higher power.

America is founded on its exceptionalism. A lot of people there truly think that they are the chosen people, and decades of pax americana have done little to stop that self-image. There is a reason why some people there see the constitution (or at least the parts of it they like) almost as an equivalent to the bible.
The thing about people like Trump though is that they see the exceptionalism as exemptionalism.

[draynay]

As someone who's not American, let me just say that's the sort of spouting that seems more in line with Trump's rhetoric. America is a country. A good one, certainly a flawed one, but just a country.

When its aspirational, its a good thing, that America should try to be better, when its entitlement its bad, that we just are better. From Skroe I see more of the aspiration that America can and should do better than it is right now.

[Realitytrembles]

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Yes, I am well aware and do not need to be reminded of your antediluvian foreign and security policy that is entirely detached from the way things actually are or truly ever will or ever shall be.

I'd like America to build a Star Destroyer too. We're both not getting anything close to what we want.

Skroe , I am convinced you love this country . So do I. The difference?

I disagree that we need to swing our power around the world if we are not first attacked.


You talk about "forward defense" vs "border defense". An outdated dichotomy. There is no border in that sense anymore. Our defense is this: leave us alone in North America, or you start losing cities.

No interventionism, no world police nonsense. Just an absolute pledge that hellfire will rain down if we aren't left alone.

[Kujako]

When its aspirational, its a good thing, that America should try to be better, when its entitlement its bad, that we just are better. From Skroe I see more of the aspiration that America can and should do better than it is right now.

Put another way... "My country, right or wrong; when right to be kept right, when wrong to be made right". Too many forget about everything past the semicolon.

[Mic_128]

Forgive them. They're having a difficult time dealing with the whole concept of America being the nation of the idea rather than just another ethno-cultural division of Earth's landmass. It's the whole thing of how anybody can be American, but I, an American of half-hispanic/half italian descent, can't be a German, or French or Swedish. I could certainly be a citizen of those countries, but not truly of it.

By contrast anyone can choose to be of America. They just have to sign onto and live by our shared principles.

Australia is a country founded on multiculturalism as well, but we don't go on about "our destiny" and such.

America is founded on its exceptionalism. A lot of people there truly think that they are the chosen people, and decades of pax americana have done little to stop that self-image. There is a reason why some people there see the constitution (or at least the parts of it they like) almost as an equivalent to the bible.
The thing about people like Trump though is that they see the exceptionalism as exemptionalism.

Either or, to someone outside America it really looks to be the same thing. Our ancestors did something great, so we're great by default.

I really wish this was mandatory viewing.

[NED funded]

If anything, what he does and what you seem to cheer on there, is a rejection of soft power and falling back on hard power. Intimidation rather than cooperation. Wanting the biggest piece of the cake, instead of taking steps that increase the shares for everyone. The US has interests abroad, and even under Trump, it is pursuing them. He is just not willing to make short-term concessions for long-term gain. Because that does not befit his strong man persona, does not fit his image as a winner. If he has a choice between spending a few million on a military parade or invest it into foreign aid, which could benefit the US drastically in ten years, he will pick the parade any day.

There is nothing sustaining your argument that intimidation doesn't work as an effective tool to grab a bigger share of the cake. And ultimately this is something that I want to remark, the cake can be as big as it wants and grow to ever breaking records size, but if America doesn't have the bigger share of it, it's of little use. Relative power is a thing after all.

[Belize]

Attributing your specific and controversial political beliefs as "American values" and vice versa is pretty much micro-fascism if not outright fascism. He knows that.

Trump has done this too, so Skroe isn't the only fascist. He just needs to recognize what he's saying when proclaiming there's an unacceptable world view to hold as an American.

"Micro-facism".

Is that the Trumpkin version of Micro-Aggressions?
You lot are snowflakier by the minute. Welcome to the horseshoe baby.

[Skroe]

Australia is a country founded on multiculturalism as well, but we don't go on about "our destiny" and such.

You should. Australia, like America, is a remarkable achievement.

But regardless there is a key difference. America built, bankrolled and defended much of the institutions that make up the modern world. Macron is calling us to to our past, present and future. We have an obligation to what our forebears created.

Australia did not play such a role. That's not a slam, just a fact.

America simply has a unique, essential, indispensable and irreplaceable role in the world.

[NED funded]

Australia is a country founded on multiculturalism as well, but we don't go on about "our destiny" and such.

Ridiculing others for their ambitions when you have none only makes you look like an envious loser. If you are complaining about the US boasting about its ambitions and accomplishments, maybe get some yourself and act on them. Get some national pride on the way too and do something about Chinese bankrolling your politicians.

[Skroe]

Either or, to someone outside America it really looks to be the same thing. Our ancestors did something great, so we're great by default.

No. Rather we are the inheritors and custodians of their great work. We have a moral and historic responsibility to improve, defend and pass it on. Ours is only a temporary stewardship of something built by our grandparents and great parents.

But the results are inarguable: the most significant 80 years to the cause of liberty and prosperity that the human race has ever known.

That is America's enduring legacy to the world. Pax Americana. And now under threat, as Macron reminds us all, we have to shore up the rampart against its predators - vile and evil men like Vladmir Putin, and yes, Donald J Trump.

The long peace is over. This is what comes next.

[Stormspellz]

And you know who knows that most of all in that video?

Vice President Mike Pence, standing right there behind Macron... giving a standing ovation to even the lines that most emphatically demolish the very platform his running mate ran on.

I've said for some time that President Mike Pence would be very much the anti-Trump, be he knows as much as anybody that nobody wants this paranoid reactionary nationalist nonsense other than the loneliest politician in America and his small band of, as George Will put it, "scowling primitives" and "vulgarians".

Disagree Pence would be far worse then Trump, he won't be the brash liar in chief, how ever his agenda will be far more theocracy based and hand out to special interests, while not being toxic to his agenda with his rhetoric.

[Skroe]

Disagree Pence would be far worse then Trump, he won't be the brash liar in chief, how ever his agenda will be far more theocracy based and hand out to special interests, while not being toxic to his agenda with his rhetoric.

I'd read my follow up posts after that. The quoted post seem to cause some confusion as to the point I was trying to make. I was in no way shape or form trying to "go easy" on Pence. In fact I kind of put him on a pedestal simply to beat him him with a stick. I marvel at the cravenness, opportunism and moral hollowness of his politics.

He's a piece of garbage.

[Kiri]

There is nothing sustaining your argument that intimidation doesn't work as an effective tool to grab a bigger share of the cake. And ultimately this is something that I want to remark, the cake can be as big as it wants and grow to ever breaking records size, but if America doesn't have the bigger share of it, it's of little use. Relative power is a thing after all.

A small piece from a big cake can be bigger than a large piece from a small cake. This is wealth I am talking about here, not power.

Also, it would be nice if you did not make up arguments for me to then beat them. I can see enough straw men from my window. Hard power, intimidation, those concepts have their place and can be effective. The question whether hard or soft power is more effective varies from issue to issue. Having the cooperation of an ally can mean that the US does not have to send forces there. Other times, a show of force by the US is more effective than an ally trying to keep a regional threat in check itself.

The problem is only to rule out one option completely, since it takes away the flexibility you need to find the most effective answer. Trump is very much doing that by gutting the state department and heavily favouring the military where he can. That makes him more potent in cases where he can intimidate others, but less so when he wants something from his allies.