"Trials deserve loot too"

[Marrilaife]

Uh.... I don't know if I'm supposed to take you seriously or not. All it takes is one attempt, at most 3 attempts on a boss to see if they're shit or not. Hell, if you're that worried, run with them in a mythic+.

Also, if you can't trust that someone isn't going to make it to the next raid session, why are you even considering them a trial and not just a pug?

First, I really pity trials in your guild, if every trial was kicked out after a mistake or 2, we'd never get any raiders, people tend to get stressed on their first run with the new guild, so you tend to give them longer period of time to see if they adjust or not. That's why most guilds have a trial period of 2-4 weeks and not "1 attempt at the boss, fuck up and you're out", sorry, that's hc pugs for you "LINK CURVE BE GOOD!!! FAIL = KICK!" That's one reason why I prefer guilded runs over pugs, because I don't see this toxic pug crap in guilds, contrary to all the dudes claiming it's guilds that are toxic.

Second, nope, you can't trust people.

Some examples:
1. new trial 9/11 mythic, good logs, he dies from some stupid shit, we decide bench him on harder bosses, decide to give him another chance next reset, next reset he's a bit better, but still dies from stuff he really shouldn't, we bench him on aggramar - argus with the stance let's see next week if he performs any better, he deletes everyone from btag ninja transfers in the middle of the night with no goodbye.

2. a guy plays a healer and is benched on a boss progression because we decided to use different healer setup, he offers to play an offspec dps, raid leader tries him out because we could use more ranged, his dps is abysmal (40% less than every other dps), the the raid leader tells him we're gonna use another player for this boss and he will bench (you always have someone on the bench, you don't run exactly 20 players, it's not always "you're shit" message sometimes you just want a different class), he could just sit out that 1 boss and then go back to healing... nope, ninja transfers without saying anything to anyone, since then I counted he had 7 transfers on his wowprogress history (he left us at the end of tomb), so yeah typical player of the kind "if I get benched I leave"

3. an applicant has good logs and good guild history, says he was in some higher guilds but wants to play a bit more casually now, we try him out, the moment he gets cutting edge he suddenly "has to go away for a week", we're like ok, no probs, some people have trips and holidays we'll wait for him to come back, he's 3 days overdue according to his notification, next time he logs in, insta leaves the guild without a word, I swear that was one of these "I just wanna someone give me cutting edge then I'm quitting until next expac", and I bet he won't have much issue finding a guild, unfortunately

4. there was a guy who was declined from several guilds for being "a guild hopper" but he swore he just had bad luck and he's not leaving for no reason, my guild gave him a chance, came for 2 weeks, then never logged in again, never heard from him a word, so yeah, "bad luck" there mate

5. an applicant insists to be tried cross realm when cross realm mythic is enabled so he can see if the guild is worth transferring for, after 3 weeks he passes his trial and transfers... then vanishes for 3 weeks straight, doesn't log or anything, after 3 weeks he immediately transfers back with no explanation or goodbye, fucking logic there you pay for transfer and then you stop playing?

We had people who left with a reason like "I'm going to play with my old friends" or "I don't wanna raid anymore, demote me to social, I'm gonna focus on pvp" or the usual reason these days "guys I'm gonna faction change to horde" and I'd say any day I have more respect for people who say a word than those who don't and left you wondering wtf happened. Still sucks if you lose a person, but at least they have the decency to say goodbye, majority of them don't.

Any guild leader except maybe in super top guilds would prefer a consistent and reliable average player over a "great performer" who's gonna "burn out" after 3 weeks, but you cannot know it. And it happens. More than it should.

[Trend]

Genius idea! What do you propose we do when some players start quitting due to burnout from trials getting all the pieces they've been wanting forever over them and they realize that being in an organized group is no longer rewarding enough?

1) What you are suggesting is statistically impossible to ever be a regular occurrence. The people who have more kills will always be more likely to have any particular item than the people who have fewer kills. Sure it will happen sometimes, but that is the whole nature of nondeterministic loot, which WoW will always have. Plus, shitters all over the world currently get loot they don't deserve since they're officers or friends of the GM or whatever, this is no less fair and will certainly be less common.

2) This isn't a change just for your raid group, it's across the board. They will balance accordingly. If PL has that big of an impact on the quality of gear that core raiders have available during progression then they will make adjustments on loot drops and/or encounter difficulty.

3) If your people quit because they can't get everything they want funneled to them, well, they sound like morons and they would probably be better off doing something else anyway.

4) What's the problem with your raid group that you need to have so many trials that this is even an issue? Maybe it's you?

I used to think of you as an intelligent poster, but this is all bollocks.

[Deleted]

The reason why guilds don't give loot to trials is not because they don't deserve it, but because they are worried that they'll get loot, leave and join another guild.

It happened once with a trial in our guild, our tank had irl problems so we recruited one that seemed very nice, and geared him so our guild wouldn't have a setback, once he was geared, he said I just wanted to get geared and left our guild to join his old guild again. So we basically boosted him for free.

And the fact that you simply can't know how the trial will fit into the guild and whether or not their performance will be good enough.

It's the same like getting a job, they rarely give you a 1 year contract from the start, you have to trial and prove your worth.

[Tiwack]

Deal with it. Things change whether you like it or not. Flow with it or get hung up on it. Which do you think is the healthy and right choice? It'll reverse or see further change in the future depending on how it works out. It comes down to your reception of it as well so try to free yourself of your self-serving bias for once.

[lolskillzz]

so what do you do when you bring said trial who is mediocre at best. or dies early in the fight because they haven't put in the attempts or just are new to raiding, and you kill said boss and they get a <Insert warforged BiS loot thats a huge upgrade for them> and they leave the next day to join a better progressed guild?

how is that fair to the guild members that for the most part carried them and has shown loyalty to the group? and to anyone saying why would they leave when they just got loot and killed a new boss for them. That shit happens all the time now even with masterlooter. lol

like you can tell who is on the serious raiding scene and who isn't by the comments.

[Evangeliste]

That actually isn't what everyone raids for. That is not an implicit agreement between players who are raiding together. The only way you can claim that you have been defrauded is if there was an explicit agreement. Pretty much all guilds inform their new players of the loot system that the guild uses and tells them that they will be a trial member for a certain duration. You are making an explicit agreement that you will have lower priority on loot relative to the core members of the raid team while you are a trial. If someone asks you to help them move and informs you that they will not pay you for helping them and you agree, you can't come at them after the fact and claim they scammed you. You accepted an agreement that you will not be paid for the work that you did and you had the option to decline.

People have easily made the statement several times, which is the stance Blizzard will take. It's why it's worded with "earned" and why Blizzard have absolute control.


Anywho, have fun debating. Master Loot is going and you'll have to lump it mate.

[RobertoCarlos]

How many wipes did method do on kj? Like 800?

Imagine you're a trail that comes in on attempt number 799, all those wipes beforehand you never helped with. Then you RNG the item everyone wants.

Its fucked.

[Leodric]

Meh? I enjoy hanging with the guild. One bad incident doesn't make me want to stop raiding. Even when the item drops for a rando (And it did, a few times, when we were doing farm runs on Ely). If y'all are dropping after one bad incident... hooo boy.

It doesn't have to be one bad incident it can happen a lot and the chance of it happening is unmotivating, especially when you organized a guild working with ML for over a decade now in some cases. The point is also that incidents like this can be the stepping stone for further drama and Blizzard taking guild the possibility away for preventing such future drama is really bad.

Pffft. Accept it because it pushes my raid, my ass. If you've got someone who is contributing 2/3rds of what someone else is contributing not because of their inability to do mechanics but because of their lower gear and you choose to hand the higher gear to someone doing well, you're shooting yourself in the foot. The person with the larger ilevel gap would gain more overall increase (And thus more Raid Increase) by getting that improvement than the person pushing another 1.5% DPS off a particular item.

Wrong, a trinket on a person for example which class benefits more from it or a person which has a way more higher geared char can make a way better DPS push than on a char which would get a higher ilvl boost. That's a fact and every raider who knows stuff about how DPS works knows that.

I ran with a Heroic Progression guild all through Legion. It was a shitload of fun. And every single raid night we went on was Personal Loot. Did it mean that sometimes the guy with the 850 ilevel had to watch the 820 get the item they wanted? Sure. But it improved the raid and the raid experience, so we didn't just accept it: We embraced it.

I am happy that it worked for your guild and all power to you and your guild for choosing the way to distribute loot how they want it. And what I am about to write isn't meant to be mean or looking down to you.

But you were in a Heroic progression guild. I don't think you understand how wrongly distributed items can hurt a mythic progression raid and how important it is for them to be able to distribute loot on factors like DPS output, loyality and discipline and many more.

I tried to work with a Mythic Progression team during the Emerald Nightmare with an Ele shaman, but the elitist bullshit and the loot distribution being basically "Everyone in my guild who could only field 12 people for this raid and then maybe you folks who came in to help can get some loot if no one needs it" made it goddamned mindboggling and kept me from continuing Mythic Raiding after we'd gotten Ilyg'noth down. I didn't even -bother- with ToV, Nighthold, Tomb, or Antorus 'cause of guys like you who would rather push the heavily geared players to do another 5% damage while the lower geared players are struggling to maintain the minimum damage to uphold the DPS checks. Like, do you even comprehend how fuckstupid that is? If the lower ranked DPS had gotten some better gear, early on, it would've loosened the DPS constraints and made rotational mistakes or any kind of minor failure into something OTHER than a call to wipe because we couldn't make the DPS requirements.

I understand your frustration but a good guild would see that your DPS is low because of your low gear. You can always check logs and see if the BRACKET % of a player DPS is low. If that's the case than gear is not an excuse (in Legion a shit situation because legendary luck was a huge problem, but thanks that in BFA this won't be a problem). A player who knows how to move, who knows how mechanics work and knows how to do DPS with their class will NEVER get kicked out of a mythic progress group.

Taking the choice away hinders Elitist Groups who act like you and the OP. People who wind up making joining a raid team a big damned ordeal instead of what it should be: A Chance to have some fun working together with a large group of players in a fucking videogame.

Taking the coice away hinders groups to determine if a player is fitting their group and organizing how they want to play. You can always play with a guild which runs PL or make your own mythic PL guild. And please stop calling me elitist, I am not elitist in anyway. I put work into my character and how to put put top DPS, if that's elitist for you than so be it. I am also not calling you a bad player for not understand how to put out decent DPS or writing stuff like "now this change benefits all the noobs who don't understand how to play WoW on a good level".

Personal loot incentivizes "Trials" as you call them to put up with your bullshit raiding logic long enough to "Fit In" to your raiding group.

It's bullshit in your opinion but not in my opinion. The good thing right now is that people who don't have the same view on loot can join the guild they want to play with.

Bullshit. "Loyalty" is just a buzzword you're using to try and make something greater and more noble out of what the reality is: That person hangs out with you more and you want to see them rewarded more than someone you've just met. It's insular monkeysphere logic wherein someone's effort is irrelevant unless they've continued that effort alongside you for long enough that you consider them part of your particular 'tribe'.

No, loyalty is a word for a person who showed he wants to push the progress with a guild. It's a word to show that you want to play with the same guild and work with them towards a goal and seeing that pushing the raid is more important than you getting loot. It's a beautiful thing to play with loyal people and to get to know eachother. I am thankfull for each loyal person I am playing with. I read a lot of hate in your text and I am sorry for your bad experiences in the past, but having those bad experiences. Maybe the problem was on you and no on the guilds you played with?

If you really wanted the raid to do better you'd put more rewards into the hands of the "Trials" to ensure they were a greater help to the raid and incentivized to keep coming back to help you, rather than leaving them struggling.

A trial is not struggling for not getting loot. A good trial would understand why a guild is not giving him such an item.

The game is the slot machines. That's the game. You're trying to rig the slot machines to pay out for your friends, even when it's someone else's quarter.

No, I am not trying to righ a slot machine for my "friends". I want that my guild has the choice that it benefits my guild the most.

I don't give a damn how many quarters the "Raid" has put into the slot machines, if I get a Jackpot I'd rather have the CHOICE of sharing it, than have it taken away and handed to someone a lot "Wealthier" than I am just because he hasn't gotten three cherries, yet.

You have the coice. Put work into your character and put work into your playstyle. Put effort into being a valuable raid member and pushing your guild. Look what you can do for your guild and not what your guild can do for you. Work for it.

[BananaHandsB]

Now you wont have to worry about someone swooping in and stealing your loot. It wont be yours to begin with. Trials(such a stupid elitist label) getting your loot is a moot point now. If you dont get your drop after so many kills, but a trial who happens to be a devout follower of RNGesus, gets his drop on the first kill, that's not the trials fault. You don't deserve it any more or less than the trial when you both participated in the kill.

You completely seem to miss the point you're making. No individual deserves loot more than another isn't quite true but there is some validity to it. That boss doesn't die because of 1 person. It's the guild's loot, and the guild should be able to decide where it goes to benefit the guild the most, and properly reward players for their respective efforts.

[Twilight Cultist]

People have easily made the statement several times, which is the stance Blizzard will take. It's why it's worded with "earned" and why Blizzard have absolute control.


Anywho, have fun debating. Master Loot is going and you'll have to lump it mate.

But that was never brought up as a reason to why they are removing Master Looter. And just because Blizzard made this decision, it doesn't mean we can't disagree with it and talk about why we think it is a bad decision.

[bozoben]

A lot of people forget this is a GAME: not a career.

Are all of your arguments ths shitty?
I haven't seen one post from you that doesn't equate to:
LoLGG
saltymuch?
LoLGetoverit.
Do you want to explain to the group why at all?

[hulkgor]

. [B]All this change does is make guilds even more wary of giving new players a chance in their team, especially if they're much lower progressed, have taken breaks, or have changed guilds repeatedly.

Then that guild won't last long, since we all know the turnover rate of raiders in current WoW. They'll have roster issues and die shortly after, good riddance.

[lolskillzz]

you get fucked

cause blizzard since wrath is too afraid to say to a player that they suck at playing

lol I guess. this entitlement shit in wow is so dumb. joinning a raiding guild is like applying for a job. you put in work early so you can reap the longterm rewards. but too many casuals want shit right fucking NOW!

[Karlz0rz]

How many wipes did method do on kj? Like 800?

Imagine you're a trail that comes in on attempt number 799, all those wipes beforehand you never helped with. Then you RNG the item everyone wants.

Its fucked.

799 tries without a kill, 1 try with the new player and a kill? Clearly he performed so well they finally got him. He earned that loot more than all the others, going by those wipe numbers!

[hulkgor]

No, trails do not deserve loot. If you get carried you deserve to wait your turn.

This is laughable in multiple ways.

[Evangeliste]

But that was never brought up as a reason to why they are removing Master Looter. And just because Blizzard made this decision, it doesn't mean we can't disagree with it and talk about why we think it is a bad decision.

I did. I said that Blizzard's ToS is negated by the very existence of Master Loot. Contradictory as well. With others like Pvp fixed by other ToS rules if you check too. Even worded "it's the nature of the game" effectively.

But, I see really no real other reason than that. They have nothing else, no other TOS to effectively support it say like the PvP and player killing stance. Why spite players for the sake of it? There isn't. No player has more right than others. No player has the right to dictate a game they rent to another that rents it too. Neither owns it. Neither exerts it.
But logically, taking Master Loot on lobbying it against their own exhibited "laws", is more logical than to butthurt their own fanbase just cus... What exactly?

That's why you disagree because the apparent decision is baseless, though it's because you're not informed and I don't mean that harshly, it's just you won't be a developer and whatnot privy to it. You're just an end user. And instead, all you can do is form your own basis. I formed mine. And, you can disagree and boycott it if you feel so strongly about it. It's about as much as you can do. But I don't think the small hiccup of individuals that do leave will hinder them that much. They were making profit in Vanilla with Classic Servers on the way.

[Sithalos]

Trails will still be required to trade off gear they get (if they're able..). Not sure what Blizzard is getting at with this change.

[Deleted]

Kinda funny 90% of the people here replying "trails" don't deserve loot can't even fucking spell it.
If a person is part of a group killing a boss and is by system mechanic eligible for loot distribution then he deserves it. He wasn't enough hindrance for you guys to not complete the encounter - if you can't deal with that then have fun in BFA

[RobertoCarlos]

799 tries without a kill, 1 try with the new player and a kill? Clearly he performed so well they finally got him. He earned that loot more than all the others, going by those wipe numbers!

Only showing how little you know about mythic raiding here champ, thats not how it works.

Unless you are just pretending all these magical trials are miles ahead of everyone else in the raid, they are just guildless for kicks. Please.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

If someone pour hours to help your team clear a raid, he deserves loot, just as anyone else.

It's about time someone did something about loot systems. No more abuse and it's a good thing.