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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Tabrotar View Post
    But that would totally go against the point that Chaosbolt is designed (and even the Devs said so) to be our hardest nuke we have in our arsenal.
    That's why I'm not sure what they plan with those abilities, was just pointing out that there is an obvious design in there we don't understand yet. I'm not sure it's removal simply because Serpent Sting just got changed a decent bit, but I think soulfire fits in well with the rest of them as a "why does it exist if it's not worth casting?".


    A lot of people probably wouldn't like it to be a huge nuke that does like 4+ chaos bolts worth of dmg, some would, but I doubt they'll do that regardless because that'd be brokenly strong on a lot of fights.

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    That's why I'm not sure what they plan with those abilities, was just pointing out that there is an obvious design in there we don't understand yet. I'm not sure it's removal simply because Serpent Sting just got changed a decent bit, but I think soulfire fits in well with the rest of them as a "why does it exist if it's not worth casting?".


    A lot of people probably wouldn't like it to be a huge nuke that does like 4+ chaos bolts worth of dmg, some would, but I doubt they'll do that regardless because that'd be brokenly strong on a lot of fights.
    Then hopefully they will make it not obligatory to cast because it´s that strong or just plain bad so that nobody will ever take it (but given Blizz pasts design choices i dont have any high hopes in that regard).

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    That's why I'm not sure what they plan with those abilities, was just pointing out that there is an obvious design in there we don't understand yet.
    I think it's fairly easy to say that Soul Fire in particular is supposed to hearken back to the days of Classic. It's the big ol' nuke that looks at Chaos Bolt and says "now watch this drive".

    The only problem is that the actual implementation does none of that, so it's just not very good:
    - SF doesn't do all that much more damage than CB, and it actually does less DPET. These facts are obviously supposed to be made up for with the shard savings, but they really just mean that it feels bad to cast.
    - The extra-long cast time can be prohibitive in modern encounters where you're not necessarily afforded all that time.
    - It doesn't interact with anything that makes CB better. You can't Backdraft it, you can't have Eradication with it, it doesn't proc Internal Combustion, and it's not affected by Supremacy.

    There's just nothing about how the spell works that makes me go "yes, I want to cast this!"

  4. #1004
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Cast time is not an issue, we spam 3 seconds baseline spell anyway. Casting 4 seconds one once per 45 seconds is not a big deal.

    More of the issue I see with this spell is that it is basically Chaos Bolt... like what's the point even? There is another similar spell that I do not like - Channel Demonfire, but this one at least is different - a channeled nuke with AoE component and wonky targeting.

    Soul Fire? It's basically copy of Chaos Bolt with small adjustment. I mean... why?

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    I think it's fairly easy to say that Soul Fire in particular is supposed to hearken back to the days of Classic. It's the big ol' nuke that looks at Chaos Bolt and says "now watch this drive".

    The only problem is that the actual implementation does none of that, so it's just not very good:
    - SF doesn't do all that much more damage than CB, and it actually does less DPET. These facts are obviously supposed to be made up for with the shard savings, but they really just mean that it feels bad to cast.
    - The extra-long cast time can be prohibitive in modern encounters where you're not necessarily afforded all that time.
    - It doesn't interact with anything that makes CB better. You can't Backdraft it, you can't have Eradication with it, it doesn't proc Internal Combustion, and it's not affected by Supremacy.

    There's just nothing about how the spell works that makes me go "yes, I want to cast this!"
    Most of this loosely applies to all of the spells I listed, that's why I listed em.

    But yeah, I assume that was the design, but they actively nerfed most of them to the point they're at so I'm not sure anymore.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Cast time is not an issue, we spam 3 seconds baseline spell anyway. Casting 4 seconds one once per 45 seconds is not a big deal.
    Eh, yeah, I guess. It bugs me nonetheless, though. Like, at least you can Backdraft a CB here and there, this thing is just... molasses. Ugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Soul Fire? It's basically copy of Chaos Bolt with small adjustment. I mean... why?
    It's pretty much entirely a "feelsies" sort of thing, I think. And that makes it extra problematic that the actual feel of the spell is basically the opposite, imo.

  7. #1007
    Soulfire should have remained a demonology spell. Their crusade to eliminate everything fire related off the other specs to give it to destro is dumb.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2018-04-24 at 02:39 AM.

  8. #1008
    It had nostalgia value, don't get why they did what they did.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  9. #1009
    At this point, bringing back Searing Pain makes more sense than bringing back SF. And I don’t even know what the sense in bringing SP back. That’s how odd this design is. I wish they’d get new devs, this same shit since Warlords. Class design went to shit after MOP.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by sugarfree View Post
    At this point, bringing back Searing Pain makes more sense than bringing back SF. And I don’t even know what the sense in bringing SP back. That’s how odd this design is. I wish they’d get new devs, this same shit since Warlords. Class design went to shit after MOP.
    Yep.
    the really sad thing so much focus is on global Cd's and Playable races one of the most important issues is being overlooked.
    they had the perfect chance to really nail how various classes work and its another failure.
    the talent "tree" is still a bloody mess. the more I see all this unfolding the more Classic wow seems the best way forward.

    what's really insulting if they truly believe everyone just loves moaning and being negative about what they do.
    the amount of negative feedback has dwarfed legion already. This really does have Shit show waiting to happen all over it

  11. #1011
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oathy View Post
    Yep.
    the really sad thing so much focus is on global Cd's and Playable races one of the most important issues is being overlooked.
    they had the perfect chance to really nail how various classes work and its another failure.
    the talent "tree" is still a bloody mess. the more I see all this unfolding the more Classic wow seems the best way forward.

    what's really insulting if they truly believe everyone just loves moaning and being negative about what they do.
    the amount of negative feedback has dwarfed legion already. This really does have Shit show waiting to happen all over it
    Yeah? Guess what? Everyone indeed loves moaning and being negative about everything - especially people who have no idea what they are talking about seem to be the loudest too.

    Spare hyperbole bullshit and talk business, because your whole post is a load of nothing and answering to the load of nothing in quote.


    Honestly, I have no idea what is all the whining about - Demonology in Beta is literally the best version of Demonology in years, Destruction is the improved version of what you have live (which is pretty decent) by the grace of the fact that Life Tap was pruned (oh no the evil evil pruning of such essential and fun ability) and level 60 row now guarantees you always have decent AoE baseline.

    The only spec now that could use something more is Affliction and even then it's perfectly functional in Beta, albeit conservatively tuned, IMO.

    So why, pray tell, as a warlock this is is a "shitshow waiting to happen?" Because you did not get fucking Searing Pain in Destruction? lol?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I can only imagine the hyperbole-fest that will happen in these trash forums once they start balancing Demo and Destruction because both are pretty damn overtuned in Beta now.

  12. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Yeah? Guess what? Everyone indeed loves moaning and being negative about everything - especially people who have no idea what they are talking about seem to be the loudest too.

    Spare hyperbole bullshit and talk business, because your whole post is a load of nothing and answering to the load of nothing in quote.


    Honestly, I have no idea what is all the whining about - Demonology in Beta is literally the best version of Demonology in years, Destruction is the improved version of what you have live (which is pretty decent) by the grace of the fact that Life Tap was pruned (oh no the evil evil pruning of such essential and fun ability) and level 60 row now guarantees you always have decent AoE baseline.

    The only spec now that could use something more is Affliction and even then it's perfectly functional in Beta, albeit conservatively tuned, IMO.

    So why, pray tell, as a warlock this is is a "shitshow waiting to happen?" Because you did not get fucking Searing Pain in Destruction? lol?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I can only imagine the hyperbole-fest that will happen in these trash forums once they start balancing Demo and Destruction because both are pretty damn overtuned in Beta now.

    shit show comment was reference to the bigger negative feedback from the community not locks only.
    suspect when BFA does launch the large majority of players will be Demo spec. As you said its a spec that needed
    TLC and creative thinking. Its a shame than ended with Demo

    functionality isn't good enough when its the start of a new expansion. why someone decided on putting SF back when
    CB remains just comes across as laziness. Wont have a problem saying how wrong I was if everything works out

  13. #1013
    @Gaidax I don't really get your posts these days... you keep focusing on this "functional" thing as if that's some redeeming quality or measure of how well a spec is designed. Its so incredibly easy to make a spec that's "functional", but for instance if it isn't fun to play like aff then its failing at the entire reason for it to exist since y'know... this is a game. "Functional" is the absolute minimum that you strive for, its not a good argument.

    Demos the only spec of the 3 that seems promising all things considered (though still not as fun of a design as mop / wod demo), which is extremely concerning to me because where does that leave the other two specs. You keep acting like destructions totally fine when live feels like you're playing a compromise and BFA is a slight modification to that with still really awful talent rows which you've effectively agreed with since you only like how it plays with certain talents (which makes it more reminiscent of mop / wod destro) and seem to despise the alternatives which you damn well know you're going to get forced into if they don't go away.

    and I mean aff's just.. not fun.. I mean... does anything else even need to be said about that? Like doesn't that go without saying that its a massive problem?

    How does it not concern you that there's dead on arrival talents littered throughout the class?
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2018-04-27 at 11:05 PM.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  14. #1014
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    This is very simple, we have 50 pages of literal nonstarters here sprinkled with the usual hyperbolic bullshit, often by people who did not even get to try it yet.

    Why I focus on good stuff? It's simple - because it's there. Both Demo and Destruction are not only functional, but genuinely good. This does not mean they are perfect, but fuck me, that's absolutely not the "disaster waiting to unfold" some people push here.

    Both these specs have questionable talents and stuff that could be improved, such as Doom and Soul Fire to name the two because one is unwieldy DoT that I don't understand how it has to do anything with "Demonology" and another one is literally a slightly modified copy of Chaos Bolt (and this is my another issue that people seem to be unable to frikkin' form a coherent sentence about what is the issue and instead degrade to hyperbolic nonsense). I also don't like how they keep pushing Sacrifice aside, I hoped it would be viable choice, but it seems to not materialize again.

    But all those, for me, are fringe issues, because both specs are working and are actually good and fun for me in between Supremacy stacking for Chaos Bolts from hell and Demon army stacking as Demo with Soul FiresDemonbolts nuking and no empowerment or mana nonsense.


    As for Affliction - I'll be honest - I could not give a rat's ass about it, because it was ever for me a spec that was as fun as watching paint dry, so others should say what they need from it, as opposed to tossing general bullshit with 0 useful information.

    Overreaching problem is that the "sky is falling" attitude when both Demo and Destruction are damn good in Beta AND overtuned as fuck to boot is pure nonsense really.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by oathy View Post
    functionality isn't good enough when its the start of a new expansion. why someone decided on putting SF back when
    CB remains just comes across as laziness. Wont have a problem saying how wrong I was if everything works out
    Of course it's bloody enough - it means you get a complete spec playable from the get go and being good about it too, as it happens now.

    One talent that you don't like does not make it the frikkin' disaster you try to push in your message I previously quoted - it makes it much simpler case of one talent not being good for a valid reason of it basically being another Chaos Bolt on CD, with little anything more to it.

    It is not the sky is falling there. Guess what - we will always have bad talents, that's life, but as long as it's just a choice and no actual baseline thing - it can be improved in future in the same fashion CDF did, one talent I don't like but that was considerably improved as we rolled.

    That's why the whole negativity dwarfing Legion per your notion is infuriating, because for all intents and purposes - Warlocks have much MUCH less to complain about compared to what was in Legion beta.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    How does it not concern you that there's dead on arrival talents littered throughout the class?
    To say it plainly? It doesn't - because it's 1 option out of 3 in that row and if it is just bad it won't be taken.

    I'd be far more concerned if it was both bad AND mandatory like we had with Soul Effigy, but if it ends up being a thing that is both cancerous gameplay AND a must have - it will be changed just like Effigy was and right now the only talent that concerns me with potential to become that is Internal Combustion.

    Soul Fire and Doom - not a concern because they will either not be taken OR they will be taken, but not a big deal to use really. I personally expect Soul Fire to be buffed to stratosphere during beta, but if it won't - then /shrug really.

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    This is very simple, we have 50 pages of literal nonstarters here sprinkled with the usual hyperbolic bullshit, often by people who did not even get to try it yet.

    Why I focus on good stuff? It's simple - because it's there. Both Demo and Destruction are not only functional, but genuinely good. This does not mean they are perfect, but fuck me, that's absolutely not the "disaster waiting to unfold" some people push here.

    Both these specs have questionable talents and stuff that could be improved, such as Doom and Soul Fire to name the two because one is unwieldy DoT that I don't understand how it has to do anything with "Demonology" and another one is literally a slightly modified copy of Chaos Bolt (and this is my another issue that people seem to be unable to frikkin' form a coherent sentence about what is the issue and instead degrade to hyperbolic nonsense). I also don't like how they keep pushing Sacrifice aside, I hoped it would be viable choice, but it seems to not materialize again.

    But all those, for me, are fringe issues, because both specs are working and are actually good and fun for me in between Supremacy stacking for Chaos Bolts from hell and Demon army stacking as Demo with Soul FiresDemonbolts nuking and no empowerment or mana nonsense.


    As for Affliction - I'll be honest - I could not give a rat's ass about it, because it was ever for me a spec that was as fun as watching paint dry, so others should say what they need from it, as opposed to tossing general bullshit with 0 useful information.

    Overreaching problem is that the "sky is falling" attitude when both Demo and Destruction are damn good in Beta AND overtuned as fuck to boot is pure nonsense really.
    Tuning is completely irrelevant at this stage, I don't understand why you keep bringing it up when I know you know better.

    I don't at all agree that destruction is in as good of a place as demo is, play the spec without the talents you enjoy. It feels absolutely awful, as it should with those talents as they are designed. Imo that's a MASSIVE "the sky is falling" type of problem for the spec unless they plan to purposefully make a not insignificant number of talents filler that you're never expected to pick for the entire xpac. I can't begin to imagine how you keep justifying that to yourself.

    Your apathy about afflictions design being poor is a non-starter in and of itself, if you're going to be nonsenical about its design being poor then don't get upset when other people are nonsensical as well.

    This forum stopped being a good place for the kind of conversation we were used to years ago, but you know that. You can still get to the root of an issue with someone who starts out with something absolutely ridiculous, but that's a matter of desire to engage with people in that way. Which as far as I can tell you've no intention of doing these days.

    To say it plainly? It doesn't - because it's 1 option out of 3 in that row and if it is just bad it won't be taken.

    I'd be far more concerned if it was both bad AND mandatory like we had with Soul Effigy, but if it ends up being a thing that is both cancerous gameplay AND a must have - it will be changed just like Effigy was and right now the only talent that concerns me with potential to become that is Internal Combustion.

    Soul Fire and Doom - not a concern because they will either not be taken OR they will be taken, but not a big deal to use really. I personally expect Soul Fire to be buffed to stratosphere during beta, but if it won't - then /shrug really.
    See that to me is incredibly concerning, because you're hedging your bets on them not forcing you into something. To me that's incredibly unrealistic, and the closer we get to launch without things being addressed the less likely they will be.

    Take demo for instance, many of the things that were addressed that make it feel so much better to play now were things people were screaming bloody murder about in legion alpha / beta. I personally don't want to have to wait another entire xpac for the class / specs to get to a place that I find enjoyable again, since legion had the least fun class design I've experienced in my time in wow.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  16. #1016
    Seems there's two camps.

    "Everything sucks, spec is DEAD!"

    and

    "Yeah Affliction is dead, but that doesn't matter (?!). Yeah Destruction is half-baked, but that doesn't matter (?!!). Demonology is great, though!"

    I'm not sure I like either prospect. People are too quick to excuse glaring design flaws, when THIS is the time when these things are fixed. On a new expansion, I personally find it UNACCEPTABLE to go into things knowing you have multiple effectively dead talents and one effectively dead spec. And by "dead" I mean "usable for raiding" because obviously if you're just killing quest mobs outside your faction hub you could be naked and it wouldn't matter. And why PvP isn't balanced by, you know, PVP TALENTS instead of gumming up the PvE side I just cannot understand.

  17. #1017
    Problem with destro is a bunch of crap like fire and brimstone and backdraft at 2 stacks should be baseline yet they aren't because Blizzard would sooner sit on a cactus than designing new active ability talents to take up the slot.

    The first two talent rows are the ones more likely for disaster if flashover and reverse entropy don't stay vastly superior the entire xpac. Shadowburn has its uses for add sniping I guess but I dread Internal Combustion becoming a thing in its current iteration where it consumes immolate duration.

    I still don't understand why demonic circle, mortal coil, and Darkfury are on the same row. If anything, to make sense of it howl of terror should replace demonic circle and make demonic circle baseline.

    Burning Rush should be replaced by dark regeneration. Burning Rush baselined.

    Voila, Destruction is significantly improved.

    There's also the issue of the last talent row with channel demonfire being an annoying spell that I think would feel a lot less shitty if it generated ember bits.

    Our aoe remains atrocious and the least they can do is make fire and brimstone baseline and put something else in like conflagrate spreading immolate to 2 other targets or some crap like that.

    I still think Rain of Fire deserves the Blizzard treatment that frost mages have. A tiny radius aoe shard spender is such a nonstarter.

    -----

    Affliction is a plain incomplete spec. If it felt braindead to play in Legion, this BfA version would make that seem like a higher form of intelligence.

    Shadowbolt on affliction is so bad. Bring Malefic Grasp back with drain soul as an execute and haunt as the shard spender.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2018-04-28 at 03:51 AM.

  18. #1018
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    The main cause for excited reviews of affliction are around Deathbolt, and that excitement will evaporate when it gets nerfed to something like 10%, which it will, to bring it inline with the boring passive and dead talent Haunt that compete with it.

    Without Deathbolt there's almost nothing fresh about aff except ShadowBolt (whoop de doo, lord knows why people wanted that back, it's contrary to the whole ethos of affliction and saddles us with a floppy noodle hardcast that has the worst DPET in the game)

    Biggest disappointment for me is that virtually nothing has changed over ramp. Despite the devs specifically highlighting that as an increasingly troublesome problem through Legion, we've still got the Agony mechanic from over a decade ago and made worse by talents liek Writhe.

    Deathbolt gives us a "burst" ability, but it's basically, aff has to pay a talent price to do what everyone else can do without talents, and what aff can do that others can;t doesn;t seem to be something they woudl actually want anyway. Yay, as an afflock I have ramp, now who wants some of that? Oh...

    Sow the Seeds is a dead talent because See dof Corruption is just plain terrible.

    Demo looks very good, although it also has the makings of something that allows for excessive minmaxing, and whilst I;ve no issue with rewarding skillful play, that can become problematic if you open up too large gaps between players who can do everything to perfection and have a half-dozen addons, and everyone else (for example, the useage of thew Tyrant coupled with Nether Portal demons, or the Demonic Consumption talent).

    Inner Demons will have to go. You just can't use it most of the time, because the passive summon Imp instantly attacks anything that's attackable.
    Last edited by mmoc7a6bdbfc72; 2018-04-28 at 08:26 AM.

  19. #1019
    Remember the mop days when we had soulswap and malefic grasp and our burst was among the best in the game

  20. #1020
    Im pretty excited with Demon, I really want to have fun playing the spec I like the most again. Just wanna see the talent issues fixed, like Doom.

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