"Trials deserve loot too"

[Lightwysh]

One Word. Attendance.

So you want a trial to come in to fill your attendance, and on the off-chance you get the kill, you'd not give them loot?

[Deleted]

You could and arguably should do that. Or, have Blizzard step in and eliminate that as a possibility. Heartache adverted, bad behavior defeated before it can start. Stability established.

Let's remove LFR too. It gives headaches and bad behaviour is defeated before it can start. Actually, let's remove normal and heroic too, so raiding can't be PUG'ed (no easy first mythic bosses too). No more PUG headaches or bad behaviour. Everything will be done via guilds so it's stable.

[Queen of Hamsters]

As much as I disagree with the loot changes, your comment about the developers not doing raiding is just insipid hyperbole.

I'm 100% certain that Ion as well as a number of developers, do in fact raid. All kinds are likely represented in the team, seeing as how the game moved away from raid-or-die with Legion.

[-aiko-]

One of Blizzard's greatest faults is that they have, in the past, attempted to please everyone. I'm actually glad to see them taking an approach that is more uncompromising.

I would agree, except this doesn't even solve the issue and is eliminating even more player-choice. There are parts to it that just don't make sense, such as trading restrictions on item level.

This is the wrong solution, plain and simple. It doesn't actually address anything. It's like taking pepto-bismol when you have a headache.

[Elestia]

Wrong. Loot drama and rage /gquitting is not going away.

Scenario: someone wins a piece of armor they already have/don't need. Someone else needs it and asks if they can have it. Person A refuses to give it to them for reason x, y or z (it's for off-spec bruh!). Person B rages and /gquits.

Before you say anything, no, I'm not saying Person A should be forced to give an item they won to Person B. I'm just saying that this is not going to solve loot drama related /gquits. While you can argue that removing ML minimizes loot drama, I can actually argue the opposite and we'd both have merits to our argument. A good loot council could solve loot drama by getting loot where it needs to go and finding a way to make both players happy.

The solution to extra loot pieces is to allow them to be voluntarily offered up for roll and traded. It's what most runs already do for farm because ML is a pain.

[Deleted]

What about the ones cleaning the floor with their blood, do they deserve loot too? The argument goes both ways mate.

Everyone who participates in the kill (attends the raid) has a chance for loot in my guild, our mentality has never been that just because you made a mistake, you must immediately be excluded from loot or raids.

Mind you, not every death is because you made a mistake either, shit simply happens. We have a trial system too, but it's based around prioritization for raid slots rather than loot, since we run PL exclusively, it's never been a problem for us.

That said, I think that enforcing something like this is dumb, removing choice from the players.

[-aiko-]

The solution to extra loot pieces is to allow them to be voluntarily offered up for roll and traded. It's what most runs already do for farm because ML is a pain.

Which you can't do in certain circumstances, because "reasons". Loot on farm content does not interest me, it's loot in progression that is going to be awful. The item level restriction is asinine and there is no defense for it.

- - - Updated - - -

Everyone who participates in the kill (attends the raid) has a chance for loot in my guild, our mentality has never been that just because you made a mistake, you must immediately be excluded from loot or raids.

No one is ever excluded from the possibility of getting loot, because bonus rolls exist.

[Leodric]

Bottom line, no solution will please everyone.
One of Blizzard's greatest faults is that they have, in the past, attempted to please everyone. I'm actually glad to see them taking an approach that is more uncompromising.

They are taking the chance away for people to decide how they want to approach a problem or play the way they want. They changed the situation of pleasing everyone to a situation where they force people organising a specific way.

[Elestia]

I would agree, except this doesn't even solve the issue and is eliminating even more player-choice. There are parts to it that just don't make sense, such as trading restrictions on item level.

This is the wrong solution, plain and simple. It doesn't actually address anything. It's like taking pepto-bismol when you have a headache.

No. It helps the guild in so many unseen ways.

Rather than players feeling like they can't compete because they've been marginalized by consistent shitty /arbitrary ML decisions out of their control, they can instead objectively know that just by showing up will offer the best chance at personal progression. How they compete therefore is determined by the same RNG blanket affecting everyone and that is in the end more fair and even handed.

Or another ML scenario - you're not the principle dps of your spec so you don't see as many upgrades, yet you're skilled enough to do better damage most of the time. You're able to stick around enough to just doggedly get by. Over time once the principle dps is geared you get gear and only then you're able to overtake them on every encounter. How is this fair - when in fact you were the better? With PL you will literally see the stronger and better players come out much sooner.

[Deleted]

No one is ever excluded from the possibility of getting loot, because bonus rolls exist.

You only have 3 bonus rolls a week. I get where you're coming from but I am just sharing how it's never been a difficulty for me or my guild since mop, I think personal loot should've been in the game from the start if anything, but removing a feature is the problem I have with this, not the effect on guilds.

And as such, I don't think complaints outside of what I mentioned are valid, it just looks like unwillingness to face changes rather than anything.

[-aiko-]

No. It helps the guild in so many unseen ways.

lol

Everything you just said helps the player but not the guild.

[Dziubla]

If not for said trial, you might not even have enough people to kill the boss in the first place, so no one would get loot. Run with your group if you have it, but if someone drops, and you need to hire more trials to replace them...then they 100% SHOULD be able to get loot.

[Leodric]

Or another ML scenario - you're not the principle dps of your spec so you don't see as many upgrades, yet you're skilled enough to do better damage most of the time. You're able to stick around enough to just doggedly get by. Over time once the principle dps is geared you get gear and only then you're able to overtake them on every encounter. How is this fair - when in fact you were the better? With PL you will literally see the stronger and better players come out much sooner.

What is the 'principle' DPS? The better player? Then it's fine he is getting the loot. A Player who gets the loot no matter what in a guild? Then leave that trash guild and find a better one. Can't find one? Put effort into the game and open your own or look into server transfer for a better guild.

[Enfilade]

When a formed raid group is 10/11M, and we bring in 2-5/10M players who we're giving a shot to join us and skip progression (that we've spent months on mind you), and a main raider, who we KNOW isn't going to bail, needs a huge upgrade, of course we're going to give it to him. We have no idea about this trial or if they'll even work out. The fact that at least one dev on the WoW team thinks that Trials deserve loot just as much as the people who helped a guild progress through the raid is laughable and shows that they really don't do organized raiding to any extent. They're promoting the ideal that guild community means fuckall and you can just piss off whoever you want since they can no longer affect your loot. If Personal is forced in Normal-Mythic, that would easily promote that toxic, LFR, mentality with actual raid difficulties.

Like I really can't fathom that they think Trials should be just as eligible as main raiders for loot. It's baffling that they're upset with "being at the mercy of others" over "being at the mercy of raw RNG fucking you for weeks on end". If we could at the very least have a blacklist for gear from bosses, this might be acceptable. If we could at least trade shit we don't give a fuck about, even if it's a slight upgrade in iLvl, this might be acceptable.

TL;DR: Personal Loot is so fucking restrictive and not organized that it simply has no place in guilds who really want to progress. All this change does is make guilds even more wary of giving new players a chance in their team, especially if they're much lower progressed, have taken breaks, or have changed guilds repeatedly, and this is already a huge concern on live. Making it even worse is just causing a much bigger problem, especially how small the playerbase is compared to expansions ago.

Your sense of entitlement and insufferable toxicity is one of the many reasons why myself and countless others no longer play this shitshow of a game. I'm glad I don't have to be exposed to people such as yourself anymore.

On topic: Trials pay the same $15 a month (or currency equivalent) to play the game that you and your beloved "raiders" do. Deal with it, it's an excellent change that should have happened ages ago.

[Elestia]

lol

Everything you just said helps the player but not the guild.

You didn't even bother using my entire post.

Having better dps and heals showing up in your guild roster sooner because they have an evenhanded and fair access to gear is literally a direct benefit to the guild in which those players choose to participate.


Powerful corporations are powerful because they're made up of powerful capable people. Not because someone started giving handouts to the board members.

[Leodric]

If not for said trial, you might not even have enough people to kill the boss in the first place, so no one would get loot. Run with your group if you have it, but if someone drops, and you need to hire more trials to replace them...then they 100% SHOULD be able to get loot.

You also have trials in a HC group for example (especially at the beginning of a new raid) whom you don't actually need to kill a boss for but still want to get them with you to see if they are fitting for your guild.

- - - Updated - - -

Having better dps and heals showing up in your guild roster sooner because they have an evenhanded and fair access to gear is literally a direct benefit to the guild in which those players choose to participate.

Serious question did you ever progress in mythic? Decent players don't give a shit if they get loot at the beginning/trial status. Only the snakes cry for loot the first raid ids so they can take loot and piss of to their main guild or guild hop to another guild.

[Sliske]

Or it helps the guild significantly more when someone who has been with us for years, who does good DPS, gets loot over the guy who might quit tomorrow.

Every guild i've trialed in and eventually became a core raider in, has had a group of people that are terrible with a lot of DKP/EPGP. It seems to just be a standard thing. At least with personal loot, those leeches won't be fed as much gear when we could be gearing up trials that are promising.

Of course not every guild uses the 2 loot systems above, in my world 200+ days we used loot council which imo is the best way to decide loot.

Honestly its a lose / lose answer whatever you pick.

[-aiko-]

You didn't even bother using my entire post.

Oh no, I read it, you just came to the wrong conclusion and your scenario was biased.

[Ham on Rye]

The problem isn't with the trial getting loot, its with the trial getting a BiS piece for another class that has worked for months to help contribute to the guild, who actually deserves that piece.

And that's not a problem anymore with Personal Loot, because one person getting a piece of gear doesn't preclude anyone else from getting gear.

Problem solved! Thanks Blizz!

[Aggrophobic]

By that definition every single raider is being carried, so it’s not a consideration.

Hardly the same thing. In any case, the choice should be the players. The game needs less RNG, not more.
And again, Blizzard is not doing this to make the game better.