Should Blizzard cater to community perception, even if it is wrong?

[Lilija]

Most of the people who seem to like this change have no raid achievements outside LFR and dont know ML can only work in a group that is 90% guild.

Can you please tell me how you acquired those data?

[Deleted]

Blizzard knows what's their demographic: tons of very different people with different goals and tastes and opinion varying thru whole spectrum of possible opinions There is no one thing all WoW players like, want, think or need. We are a mix of people who like different things within the same game.


That is not true. As Ion once said, WoW community doesn't have any majority. WoW community is a mix of minorities and they are all important to the game dynamic. This has become quite a complex ecosystem.


Are you sure you are not mixing your personal experience with how the game is as a whole? Because funny enough I find raiding becoming more and more enjoyable with each expansion (Cata was the exception due to 10 vs 25 man issue)


Why would they want to kill it? And tbh in order to kill it they would have to remove raids. Playing a multiplayer game is always better with people you know both in efficiency and the quality time you are spending with your mates.


Yet somehow they keep developing those raids... strange way of showing you want to kill something

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It's not that it's the minority that comments on forums but rather that people generally don't comment on forums when they like something. If they do they keep enjoying it. Therefor, the forum comments will be negative in vast majority because it's mainly the dissatisfied people who will take time an effort to comment.

<<< And then there are the rare snowflakes that just like commenting for the sake of commenting

1) you misunderstood my point. Ofc blizz know what kind of demographic they have but you cant expect nor you shoul devote your resources to make EVERYONE happy. THat's why if you want to make ANY product competitive you have to choose a direction. It's all fun and games untill everyone is dissatisfied cuz you failed to cater to anyone. And spoilers they have done exactly that "dumbing down" every aspect of PvE for the last decade (mythic raids and high M+ excluded) catering to the "casual" end of the spectrum

2) THat's simply not true. There is a majority even if you try to deny it. Even though it's true that is complex that does not mean that you cant spot wich part of your community is the driving force and wich is not (take pvp as an example)

3) Personal experience is not taken into account since it's personal. What i mean by that is that the % organized guilds/total playerbase (not talking about cesspool or friends ones) that do raids has steadily decreased. And no wonder since they have introduced many other ways to enter raids that is not directly tied to any kind of organized raiding guild.

4) I honestly think they have not done that yet cuz they had no valid alternative, now they have it it's called M+. Not saying they will ever remove "raids" only organized raiding that's different in many many ways. You dont need a 20 Man mythic raid to play with friends just look at any FPS or MOBA and you can see it quite clearly.

5) Wut? Did you read my post at all? I said that would be much better than keeping this level of develop while simultaneously trying to impare the life of organized guilds. They will not kill it but not because they dont want. They will not untill they are 100% sure to have a playerbase completely formed by players who dont care about it ( wich is slowly happening in every level)

[Lilija]

Look. They have two choices:
1) Listen to the feedback you got on the matter, knowing that it will please at least a certain percentage of the people.
2) Assume that the only people who give you feedback are automatically in a minority (because only a minority of players uses the forums) and therefor everyone else has to either like this change or not care about it.

WoW community is a mix of minorities. There is no majority in WoW with the same opinion. Even within the minorities opinion vary.

Also note that we're talking about making a change to a system that is already functioning (and which wasn't complained about on the forums) and making changes is always a risk. Or in other words: Never change a winning team.

I would disagree that ML is functioning without issues. I would say there have been issues with ML since the day one. We just for most time didn't have any alternative. PL simply needed time to be tested live and I guess Blizzard figured 2 expansions is enough of testing.

Also if you go for 2) you can basically just scrap the concept of forums entirely because they'll always be used by a minority.

Tbh forums aren't the best form of feedback. Surveys are much better. And since I've taken a few in past years I assume they are doing them quite actively. Forums can still exist for people who want to believe their personal opinion matters more than all the other millions of personal opinions

[yjmark]

I think it's kinda funny how the many people feel like their perception is correct, and other people's perception is wrong :P Unless someone has actual data to change that, perception is truth.

[Nathreim]

I don't see problems if you can still trade items in your group.

PL is very restricting often you cant trade items at all specially during progression when those trades matter the most. A higher ilvl is not a good metric for determining an item is an upgrade.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

No, they should make the game the best they know how. If we disagree we should not play the game.

[ramayana1423]

I would disagree that ML is functioning without issues. I would say there have been issues with ML since the day one. We just for most time didn't have any alternative. PL simply needed time to be tested live and I guess Blizzard figured 2 expansions is enough of testing.

The current iteration of ML is functioning without issues. It is restricted to guilds. If you join a guild with ML loot policy, you know what you are getting into. If you don't like it, you can join a guild that doesn't use it.

[psyquest]

Some people have been around for ages in this game. Some have been around since vanilla.

lets just say that when something is not broke, dont fix it. enhance it, give more choice but dont remove stuff.

the issue here is that blizzard are going the diablo route, catering for people with fewer and fewer time to play, in an mmo... so they are finding ways to entice people to stay subscribed. at the same time, an mmo is about raiding and they cannot just antagonise the raiding community. They are playing a dangerous game and it might just cost them.

Time will tell, but by experience I can tell you that when the player base complained, there was always a good reason and "told you so" moment right after.

[Nerovar]

WoW community is a mix of minorities. There is no majority in WoW with the same opinion. Even within the minorities opinion vary.

I never doubted that. The PvP community tends to be pretty united (I've never talked to a PvP player who prefers RNG loot in PvP).

I would disagree that ML is functioning without issues. I would say there have been issues with ML since the day one. We just for most time didn't have any alternative. PL simply needed time to be tested live and I guess Blizzard figured 2 expansions is enough of testing.

I was still referring to the example of PvP gear. I don't have a strong opinion on this whole ML/PL debate but in general I believe that having more choices tends to be better.

Tbh forums aren't the best form of feedback. Surveys are much better. And since I've taken a few in past years I assume they are doing them quite actively. Forums can still exist for people who want to believe their personal opinion matters more than all the other millions of personal opinions

Forums can provide feedback beyond the set of questions that you asked and provide valuable insight into more subjective or complex matters. Also the value of surveys depends highly on the questions that are asked (which makes it prone to failure if your questions don't allow certain opinions (you can see this quite well on certain MMO-C threads)).

Also where do you get surveys in WoW? I've never seen a single one (or heard of one).

[ramayana1423]

Also where do you get surveys in WoW? I've never seen a single one.

Been playing since Vanilla, never seen a single survey outside of feedback requests after a GM ticket and beta feedback. Lilija is full of shit.

[Lilija]

1) you misunderstood my point. Ofc blizz know what kind of demographic they have but you cant expect nor you shoul devote your resources to make EVERYONE happy. THat's why if you want to make ANY product competitive you have to choose a direction. It's all fun and games untill everyone is dissatisfied cuz you failed to cater to anyone. And spoilers they have done exactly that "dumbing down" every aspect of PvE for the last decade (mythic raids and high M+ excluded) catering to the "casual" end of the spectrum

From where I stand PvE looks better and better with each expansion. Also Blizzard isn't trying to make everyone happy. The trick is to make some people happy and others not so much dissatisfied. I would say with this change they are addressing certain level of dissatisfaction that they probably observed in the raiding environment.

Also WoW does not have any competition except for people's real life

2) THat's simply not true. There is a majority even if you try to deny it. Even though it's true that is complex that does not mean that you cant spot wich part of your community is the driving force and wich is not (take pvp as an example)

Given we know nothing about WoW players preferences (unlike Blizzard who is actually doing surveys which unlike forum posts give actual view of the community) you cannot even prove to me that there is such thing as a WoW community majority or what is the driving force of WoW. You don't know it and I don't know it. We opperate on assumptions and our very small fragment of our reality (our experience and that of people we personally know which is a drop in the sea of a huge concept of WoW community).

3) Personal experience is not taken into account since it's personal. What i mean by that is that the % organized guilds/total playerbase (not talking about cesspool or friends ones) that do raids has steadily decreased. And no wonder since they have introduced many other ways to enter raids that is not directly tied to any kind of organized raiding guild.

And that is bad for the game or anyone how?

4) I honestly think they have not done that yet cuz they had no valid alternative, now they have it it's called M+. Not saying they will ever remove "raids" only organized raiding that's different in many many ways. You dont need a 20 Man mythic raid to play with friends just look at any FPS or MOBA and you can see it quite clearly.

FPS and MOBA are a whole different animal and tbh it's not for everyone. The more sensitive types of people will not enjoy that. And even those who take those games seriously and are good at them will have better experience playing with friends. Because when it comes to competitive gaming being able to coordinate with people who understand themselves makes it possible to tackle more difficult challenges. Yes, the majority will play casually but if you want the best experience you want to play with people you know and communicate with well.

5) Wut? Did you read my post at all? I said that would be much better than keeping this level of develop while simultaneously trying to impare the life of organized guilds. They will not kill it but not because they dont want. They will not untill they are 100% sure to have a playerbase completely formed by players who dont care about it ( wich is slowly happening in every level)

I still wonder how it's possible that I find raiding more and more enjoyable with each expansion. And I mean the top end raiding. That still looks like a strange way of killing something in a game. And I am totally someone that cares about PvE. I don't think I'd play without raids at all. I get bored without raids after a month or so.

[Nerovar]

Been playing since Vanilla, never seen a single survey outside of feedback requests after a GM ticket and beta feedback. Lilija is full of shit.

I know there was a survey when you ended your subscription but they scrapped it (which isn't exactly in favour of surveys).

[Lilija]

I think it's kinda funny how the many people feel like their perception is correct, and other people's perception is wrong :P Unless someone has actual data to change that, perception is truth.

Human perception is both correct and incorrect at the same time. It's mostly correct when it comes to ones own reality (things your experience personally). But when it comes to broader reality (like a computer game with millions of players) ones own reality is only a small part of the whole thing. And this is something people don't get.

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The current iteration of ML is functioning without issues. It is restricted to guilds. If you join a guild with ML loot policy, you know what you are getting into. If you don't like it, you can join a guild that doesn't use it.

Can you imagine people have different reason for playing the game? Also if loot distribution in your main reason to be or not in a guild then I don't see too bright future for that person in that guild. And it is not true that ML is functioning without issues... even in guilds. There were ML issues since Vanilla.

[Paulosio]

There is very rarely ever one community perception of anything... So how can Blizzard cater to something which is so undefined?

There are just your own personal perceptions of what the community wants but that is based on what you are reading on places like MMO champion and what other people you talk to are saying and that might not give you an accurate indication of what the majority wants.

[WeaponizedPillows]

These people have no idea how wrong they are, so they will continue to rail against master loot and other game mechanics that have next to no real impact on them, while removing them seriously messes with the ecosystem in the groups that use its advantages to their favor.

But, honestly, perspective is important. Even if these people have no idea why they are wrong, not knowing they are wrong will hurt the game. I don't think catering to the ignorant is the best solution, but I don't have a better one.

Top end guilds will adapt. It's just kind of a slap in the face to mess with the systems that help top end guilds do what they do, to fix a problem that is almost non-existent.

Though, as Preach pointed out in his video on the topic, most players likely exist in the pug and/or shit guild world. They're mostly all terrible players who think that loot is everything, and don't understand what it means to put the progression of the group over the progression of the individual. They don't understand the social aspect of a proper guild, because they've never been in one, and many of them may have even been kicked after trialing and performing poorly or having an incongruent personality.

It makes perfect sense why they would want master loot gone, but, as you said, they're also objectively wrong, because they are inexperienced with the subject and their opinion can't mean anything in that context.

TL;DR: I don't think it's the right change, but I don't have a better way to improve the community's understanding of why master loot isn't the devil. They're ignorant of why the system works so well for guilds that actually have cohesion.

[Justpassing]

This is why they gotta stop doing these Q&A's. We get these kinds of passive-aggressive threads for a month afterwards.

[Deleted]

Most of the people who seem to like this change have no raid achievements outside LFR and dont know ML can only work in a group that is 90% guild.

Afaik you can't set ML if it isn't guild group (90% of raid from one guild) right now on live.

Then who benefits from this change?

[Lilija]

I never doubted that. The PvP community tends to be pretty united (I've never talked to a PvP player who prefers RNG loot in PvP).

Fair enough. I am not engaged enough into PvP to know that.

I was still referring to the example of PvP gear. I don't have a strong opinion on this whole ML/PL debate but in general I believe that having more choices tends to be better.

As long as those are real choices. When choosing a guild you look at many factors. There are no perfect guilds and among all the pros and cons of a particular guild each person decides what they can live with in order to have the other benefits of that guild. For me the social aspect has been pretty important. Even more important that I was able to admit to myself. Unless the loot system is extremely corrupt I don't care about it much. ML for me is minor inconvenience when it comes to raiding. Mostly due to time and pointless chatter during raids it takes for the minimal gain - I like the kills the boss and move on to other one style. But is not enough of a reason for me to switch a guild. So in reality there is very little to non choice from the standpoint of a particular player. And I'm tired of trying to convince my officers to PL

Forums can provide feedback beyond the set of questions that you asked and provide valuable insight into more subjective or complex matters. Also the value of surveys depends highly on the questions that are asked (which makes it prone to failure if your questions don't allow certain opinions (you can see this quite well on certain MMO-C threads)).

But forum feedback lacks the proper overview. It's just a bunch of anecdotal evidence.

As for the quality of surveys. I tend to work for few years in the market surveying business and those done by Blizzard were pretty in depth.

Also where do you get surveys in WoW? I've never seen a single one (or heard of one).

2 times got them via mail from Blizzard. One was about WoW and the other about all Blizzard games. Those things are pretty random and most people don't get them but you don't have to ask many people to get the overview you need.

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Been playing since Vanilla, never seen a single survey outside of feedback requests after a GM ticket and beta feedback. Lilija is full of shit.

And your personal experience is the whole possible reality? And then you wonder people say your comments our dumb

[yjmark]

Then who benefits from this change?

The folks who are not in a good guild? Maybe? Blizz also benefits because they will no longer get tickets or whatever from people complaining that they did not get the loot they think they deserved.

[Lilija]

There is very rarely ever one community perception of anything... So how can Blizzard cater to something which is so undefined?

There are just your own personal perceptions of what the community wants but that is based on what you are reading on places like MMO champion and what other people you talk to are saying and that might not give you an accurate indication of what the majority wants.

This person gets it