ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[Low Hanging Fruit]

So this change doesn't affect you or it does? If the change does affect you, for example master loot is why wouldn't join a guild, then you've got something to add. You do actually have a dog in the fight. Otherwise all you're doing is proving the initial statement that people anywhere near the ML change aren't affected by it.

I play WoW. The sub is the biggest dog in the fight. I raid. Currently progressing in mythic. So the dog you were hoping wasnt here because, you, someone that doesnt really matter wanted to make me not matter. All we have proved is you will assume absolutely any situation is fact if it supports your argument. Meanwhile have zero facts. You should really look into a job at Fox News. I currently am in a guild that uses ML. Its A bullshit system I have seen gamed many times. In either case the problem with the community is people look the other way when they aren't getting shit on but then when the poop is on them its a problem. My 10 man mythic compare to this ML QQ is perfectly viable. Deal with It.

[xcitng]

So you are saying that only active raiders are allowed to have an opinion? Can we use this to tell anyone that doesn't use XYZ part of the game to fuck off when they want to shit all over XYZ part of the game?

And this is exactly the problem, why should you have an opinion that can effect the game that you do not participate in?

You have done 0 raiding content yet you think your opinion should hold some value? why? if they were making sweeping changes to 5 mans that you hated and had great reasons as to why its a bad idea then I come in telling you its a good change when I don't even do 5 mans, that would frustrate you...

Also people really need to stop saying its because of split runs, this doesn't stop split runs at all

[klogaroth]

I play WoW. The sub is the biggest dog in the fight. I raid. Currently progressing in mythic. So the dog you were hoping wasnt here because, you, someone that doesnt really matter wanted to make me not matter. All we have proved is you will assume absolutely and situation is fact if it supports your argument. Meanwhile have zero facts. You should really look into a job at Fox News. I currently am in a guild that uses ML. Its A bullshit system I have seen gamed many times. In either case the problem with the community is people look the other way when they aren't getting shit on but then when the poop is on them its a problem. My 10 man mythic compare to this ML QQ is perfectly viable. Deal with It.

So you dislike the possibility of unfairness of the system, that's fine. I disagree that the new system will be any better, it's just you'll be cursing Blizzard/rng. Fwiw, I raided 10 man heroic, and 25 man heroic. When I joined in that discussion I had tried both systems, and made my choice based in actually trying them. You gave no indication at first as to whether fuck ML etc was based on trying it or not, and that's the impression given from so many on the forums, that either they've never tried it or still hold a long ass grudge from a pug years ago. (ML dying in pugs couldn't come soon enough). With so many on the wow forums especially it's obvious that they dislike a perception of a thing they've never tried or haven't used outside of old pugs. They don't even argue that it's their barrier to trying a guild, just that it should go because fuck ML and no other reason.

[Saverem]

I wouldn't care, and that person shouldn't be in a mythic raid then anyway.

But many people would. Before they had a way to deal with it, now they don't have a choice. Less choice is never a good thing.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Yeaah, sorry, but the whole "No true Scotsman"-fallacy is a bit tired by now. As a HC raider and Mythic tourist, I decided I won't pretend to speak for the people in my guild whom handle loot.

It boils down to people having opinions, same as always. Non-raiders and raiders can feel either way about the change. In the end, the developers have the final say AND the data to back up their decisions.

[Seranthor]

And this is exactly the problem, why should you have an opinion that can effect the game that you do not participate in?

You have done 0 raiding content yet you think your opinion should hold some value? why? if they were making sweeping changes to 5 mans that you hated and had great reasons as to why its a bad idea then I come in telling you its a good change when I don't even do 5 mans, that would frustrate you...

Also people really need to stop saying its because of split runs, this doesn't stop split runs at all

And I still wait for a data supported reason why I should side with the pro-ML folks...


PS. you dont know what I have or havent done, nor are you entitled to know that.

[Lilija]

The problem i am seeing is that the people against it are actually raiders(like myself) and the people who are for it either do not raid or did very low level raiding where people used personal loot anyways.

And how do you know? I am for ML going away and I am a raider of top content. And I've seen several other people with long time raiding experience saying they will not miss ML. I am not saying we are the majority because I have no idea how many of people raiding Mythic hold similar views. But our existence disproves this theory that is low level raiders who are for this change.

I think people got so used to running with ML they cannot imagine that PL can really work well even in the top progression situation. ML had one huge advantage - distribution of set bonuses which were a significant upgrade. With tiers gone there is very little gain from ML in reality (and sims are not reality)

[Mavick]

Yeaah, sorry, but the whole "No true Scotsman"-fallacy is a bit tired by now. As a HC raider and Mythic tourist, I decided I won't pretend to speak for the people in my guild whom handle loot.

It boils down to people having opinions, same as always. Non-raiders and raiders can feel either way about the change. In the end, the developers have the final say AND the data to back up their decisions.

You're terrible analogy only works if what we're saying is actually a fallacy. It's not false, in any way, to declare that someone who has no experience with an organized ML system also does not have a valuable or noteworthy opinion on it. I gave one earlier in the thread about the Pope giving a lecture on Big Bang, for example. Same concept.

Also, for this "problem with pugs", Ion didn't mention pugs in the last Q&A regarding this issue AT ALL. It's quite clear, from that interview, that they're approaching this from the angle of guilds not doing this fairly within themselves and with trials. The ironic thing is this is quite possibly going to make it much worse for trials as guild's simply won't bring them in over a 20 man core, at least not during progress. So they're probably exacerbating that issue in the end.

[MyndZero]

My signature image is my link, but I'm certain you'll come up with multiple reasons why my multiple full heroic clears and several mythic clears this expansion don't count.

Ima go out on a limb and say you were carried through EN & TOV mythic given the achievement dates being close to the same pretty much

[Mavick]

And how do you know? I am for ML going away and I am a raider of top content. And I've seen several other people with long time raiding experience saying they will not miss ML. I am not saying we are the majority because I have no idea how many of people raiding Mythic hold similar views. But our existence disproves this theory that is low level raiders who are for this change.

I think people got so used to running with ML they cannot imagine that PL can really work well even in the top progression situation. ML had one huge advantage - distribution of set bonuses which were a significant upgrade. With tiers gone there is very little gain from ML in reality (and sims are not reality)

I think you don't realize that many people who run ML for progression also have plenty of experience with PL as well, whether it be through alt-runs, pugging, or even some that are now doing PL on farm because people simply already have all the crucial gear anyway and just to make it quicker to clear. They've clearly made a choice, however, to which option is more viable for the times when gear distribution truly matters.

[EDIT] And can we please stop with the "BLIZZARD HAS THE DATA" nonsense? I'm sure they have all kinds of data, what that is who knows, they probably have this too. But that's not the issue at stake, it's the decisions they're making WITH the data. They don't always make the right ones.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

So you dislike the possibility of unfairness of the system, that's fine. I disagree that the new system will be any better, it's just you'll be cursing Blizzard/rng. Fwiw, I raided 10 man heroic, and 25 man heroic. When I joined in that discussion I had tried both systems, and made my choice based in actually trying them. You gave no indication at first as to whether fuck ML etc was based on trying it or not, and that's the impression given from so many on the forums, that either they've never tried it or still hold a long ass grudge from a pug years ago. (ML dying in pugs couldn't come soon enough). With so many on the wow forums especially it's obvious that they dislike a perception of a thing they've never tried or haven't used outside of old pugs. They don't even argue that it's their barrier to trying a guild, just that it should go because fuck ML and no other reason.

Well the truth you don't know that. Do you IP scan everyone and link it back to their account? Do you go into every accounts armory. So you know if they have several accounts. People will invent anything in their minds to support their claims to meet their desires. You did too here.

Even if you did a few. Or a lot. Its not all. I doubt it's the majority. It's just whining. Change is hard. My guild was destroyed by one. I moved on and figured it out. ML is just a lot option. People will carry on unless they are just weak or are already on the fence.

I like this change. A lot. But the problem with this community is its utter selfishness. I respect people that are upset about this. I am sure if I was a ML abuser I would be pissed to. I am also sure a lot of people do it right too. It sucks for them. I understand and respect that. But a few bad apples can ruin the lot. Not to mention Blizzard well rack a majority over the coals for their beliefs. Weather right, wrong, justified or not. I have been there.

[klogaroth]

Yeaah, sorry, but the whole "No true Scotsman"-fallacy is a bit tired by now. As a HC raider and Mythic tourist, I decided I won't pretend to speak for the people in my guild whom handle loot.

It boils down to people having opinions, same as always. Non-raiders and raiders can feel either way about the change. In the end, the developers have the final say AND the data to back up their decisions.

Saying that lack of experience might limit the quality of input isn't no true scotsman. Saying all comments in disagreement are those people would be. There are still many people commenting who obviously haven't used ML in a guild, but they can still add to things, especially if it's what's keeping them out of a guild.

The frustrating thing about Blizzard and their data is that it doesn't feel like they're prepared to ever reveal their hand on this. Contrast the GCD change with this one. Whether you agree with it or not, their rationale given for the GCD change feels a lot more complete than the ML one (I've tried it, I don't mind it, but then I've not tried it on fury). It feels like we're having the discussion based on only a fraction of the reasoning and guessing what the other reasons are.

[Lilija]

People focus solely on the potential of abusing the ML system. They cite instances of when it happened to them, a friend, or if it is currently happening in their guild, a friend's guild, or a random group they joined.

This is the exception, not the rule.

If we use personal experiences as ammunition, I'll say that I have never experienced ML hogging in raiding in my own guild, a guild previously I have been in, or in random groups I join.

EDIT: I should note that I completely understand the frustration some people have towards ML, especially if it was abused towards them.

And how do you know what is the exception and what is the rule? We all experience only a small part of certain level of raiding. Even Mythic raiding consists of about 1k guilds or more (depending how you define it) and it's natural they will differ. And guilds in the top 200 are very different from guilds closer to 1k.

The fact is, ML gives space to abuse. Abuse happens. PL is decent alternative with very limited space for abuse.

I am not personally hating on ML cause my experience was for the most time positive. But I see it's flaws. And flaws of ML aren't only about abuse. ML has very different psychological effect. ML means the responsibility and choice is given to the few. PL by nature gives responsibility to every individual. Both systems are affected by RNG but in different ways. With one system in place it will be easier to see what works and what doesn't and how to fix that (having 2 systems in place takes away that possibility as trying to keep them balanced is more important then). And one big thing I really love about PL is how little time it takes to deal with loot. And I say it both from the perspective of someone who used to run DKP and Loot Council and someone who was awarded loot based on both systems. What I have learnt thru all those years of raiding is that:
1) If bosses die regularly, every will get the loot they want no matter what is the system
2) If bosses don't die regularly it has nothing to do with the loot system

[dcc626]

I would ask people who defend new loot system link their armory. I doubt they even have full heroic clears or atleast one mythic boss down.

im on the fence. i dont care one way or the other. im fine with PL because its only loot. and ive killed a mythic boss or 2. now you can complain that i havent killed enough of them i suppose.

[Jester Joe]

But many people would. Before they had a way to deal with it, now they don't have a choice. Less choice is never a good thing.

If someone is doing that bad, they shouldn't be in the raid.

That isn't an issue with the loot system, that's an issue with your raid that's going to be there regardless.

[Twilight Cultist]

And how do you know what is the exception and what is the rule? We all experience only a small part of certain level of raiding. Even Mythic raiding consists of about 1k guilds or more (depending how you define it) and it's natural they will differ. And guilds in the top 200 are very different from guilds closer to 1k.

The fact is, ML gives space to abuse. Abuse happens. PL is decent alternative with very limited space for abuse.

I am not personally hating on ML cause my experience was for the most time positive. But I see it's flaws. And flaws of ML aren't only about abuse. ML has very different psychological effect. ML means the responsibility and choice is given to the few. PL by nature gives responsibility to every individual. Both systems are affected by RNG but in different ways. With one system in place it will be easier to see what works and what doesn't and how to fix that (having 2 systems in place takes away that possibility as trying to keep them balanced is more important then). And one big thing I really love about PL is how little time it takes to deal with loot. And I say it both from the perspective of someone who used to run DKP and Loot Council and someone who was awarded loot based on both systems. What I have learnt thru all those years of raiding is that:
1) If bosses die regularly, every will get the loot they want no matter what is the system
2) If bosses don't die regularly it has nothing to do with the loot system

But no one is forced into ML. They have the choice of joining a guild that doesn't use ML or you can even make your own guild. The change in BfA takes away choice.

[Seranthor]

[EDIT] And can we please stop with the "BLIZZARD HAS THE DATA" nonsense? I'm sure they have all kinds of data, what that is who knows, they probably have this too. But that's not the issue at stake, it's the decisions they're making WITH the data. They don't always make the right ones.

Can we please stop with the 'I'm right and Blizzard is wrong, because my feels and I'm right because I say soooooooo!'

If you truly feel they've made the wrong decision, cancel your account and let them know that you are doing it because of the ML change.

[Lilija]

I think you don't realize that many people who run ML for progression also have plenty of experience with PL as well, whether it be through alt-runs, pugging, or even some that are now doing PL on farm because people simply already have all the crucial gear anyway and just to make it quicker to clear. They've clearly made a choice, however, to which option is more viable for the times when gear distribution truly matters.

The problem is that people think they need ML to kill bosses better. And while loot ofc influences how easy it is to kill a boss it's being highly overestimated. The further you get from the top the less the speed of progression is dependent on how optimal your gear distribution is.

[EDIT] And can we please stop with the "BLIZZARD HAS THE DATA" nonsense? I'm sure they have all kinds of data, what that is who knows, they probably have this too. But that's not the issue at stake, it's the decisions they're making WITH the data. They don't always make the right ones.

So if Blizzard with the data they have can make wrong decisions, how good are the ideas of people who don't have any data except for their personal experience? o.O

[grexly75]

It certainly does- many smaller guilds who fill with pugs absolutely abuse ML.

Was one of the reasons when we would get pugs in our guild runs, we would turn PL on so there was no loot drama.. Heck even in our guild heroic runs we use Need over Greed, makes life so much simpler and quicker..

As for the change I am all for it, and by the amount of entitlement in the OP it really does stink out the room, so the all PL system can't come fast enough..

[Lilija]

But no one is forced into ML. They have the choice of joining a guild that doesn't use ML or you can even make your own guild. The change in BfA takes away choice.

And when we leave the fantasy land tell me how much choice on the individual level people really have about the loot system they play with in raids. It's the same as when people said they don't like world PvP they heard: "reroll PvE server". So either all those people were masochists or the individual choice in that matter was heavily limited by other factors.