ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[Seranthor]

The problem is that all too many people seem to think any criticism of Blizzard's decision to force PL on everyone is an attack.

I've been talking with people for near on 20 pages in the other thread, trying to explain how the loss of player agency is going to hurt the game in the long run, and generally speaking all I've gotten is a bunch of straw man arguments and insults assuming I'm just trying to hold the average player down. There have been a few exceptions, but few and far between.

Just getting someone to even look twice at the issue instead of instantly accepting Blizzard's decisions while praising it and attacking everyone who disagrees is a god damn victory, as far as I can tell. :/

In the beginning I was on the fence, so I started asking questions... the result was 'you dont even raid mythic, you dont know what you are talking about, your opinion doesn't mean anything'... So, with each response like that I got pushed farther off the fence and farther away from supporting the pro-ML case. And I know I'm not the only one that is reaching the same point of disgust.

My question for those that claim that the pro-ML side doesn't need more support or more allies becomes then, Why exactly is there a slew of threads about the subject matter? Are they just here to 'blow off some steam'?

Think back to how fast Blizzard backtracked over the flying changes in WOD... That was precipitated by community action. Enough people put enough pressure on Blizzard and they were forced to change. That is the same type of support the pro-ML group needs, and isn't getting because of their own actions.

[Daffan]

Just wait how in BFA people want to be Raider.IO banned/removed, there is gonna be a huge thread on these forum im am willing gonna bet money on it.

This change is only gonna enlarge the cesspools because less serious guilds are gonna trial people.

There already has and are massive threads detailing how Raider.IO is the devilspawn created by the sons of evil men who originally created Gearscore.

When In reality, it's a solution to the pugging problem ever since welfare gear and catchup gear diluted and screwed up the original metrics for inviting someone. When Gear can no longer be used as a measuring tool, IO saves the day.

[pacotaco]

I would ask people who defend new loot system link their armory. I doubt they even have full heroic clears or atleast one mythic boss down.

Here, you dropped this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[Lilija]

The problem is that all too many people seem to think any criticism of Blizzard's decision to force PL on everyone is an attack.

There are ridiculous people on both sides of any discussion. While I have my reasons to be ok with this particular change I am not yet sold on the GCD issue (tho as a caster it doesn't affect me that much). And yet for the mere fact that I don't dislike the change of loot system I hear things like:
- you people don't raid mythic (which is untrue)
- your opinion doesn't matter
- there must be something wrong with you
- you are fanboy (which is silly if I don't agree with some other Blizzard's and was for example extremely critical of the Legion legendary system)

I've been talking with people for near on 20 pages in the other thread, trying to explain how the loss of player agency is going to hurt the game in the long run, and generally speaking all I've gotten is a bunch of straw man arguments and insults assuming I'm just trying to hold the average player down. There have been a few exceptions, but few and far between.

Would you maybe entertain the thought that when it comes to individual agency it isn't really that much of a loss and in certain perspective even a gain? I mean each player individually gets to decide what happens with their drop if they can trade it. I've done a lot of PL trading in Legion in various scenarios and I've been loving the positivity of it. I was even quite amazed by it. And you know how much additional work it takes from the officers if they are able to tackle down their controlling nature (let's face it, you don't become an officer if you don't have it ). If this was introduced in Cata when I was still dealing with loot distribution I would be overjoyed. When I stopped being an officer I was so happy that after killing a boss I can just go play the game instead of playing spreadsheets, dealing with random whispers and all the opinions thrown at me in the short amount of time (and our LC was actually quite civil but still exhausting for the one dealing with it)

[Primemrip]

You are correct about the flaws of human perception but then in second part you fall in your own trap People who are pro ML have horror stories from hell about PL that make as much sense as the "every GM abuses ML" and "oh, but trials". Tbh all those extremely negative arguments should be rejected from the start when it comes to the validity of the discussion because they are heavily biased by the mechanism described by you in the beginning. Except you need to open yourself to seeing the same flaws in logic of your side as you see in the opposite side and to the actual reasonable arguments of the side that you disagree with. Ain't easy cause human nature but we can at least try.

The point of discussion isn't really to convince the other side because everyone who is long enough on the internet knows it's not possible. The point of a discussion is to expose yourself to opinions different to yours and test your own views against them. Not to change them but to maybe understand them better. Because it's a commonly known issue that we ourselves very often have no idea what we want or what is best for us if you don't dig really deep. Opposing views make this digging possible because they are the best way to uncover what is faulty in our own logic. If someone truly gets into the spirit of discussion you will see the slight changes in the way they address the topic of discussion. But in order to get there some poking is required (and this is what I like to do for some reason )

I get that mate. Both sides need to be honest and exaggeration isn't needed.

And I am being honest when I say I understand the personal loot system well. I used to raid lead a Heroic/Normal only guild that used personal loot. We were fully casual. 156 attempts to kill heroic Gul'dan. More wipes than it took my current guild to kill mythic Aggramar by over 50. We had players of varying skill level and as a raid leader in charge of keeping things in order during raid, it was the most mentally draining thing I have ever done. The good players carried the guild. They complained about the bad players. The bad players they complained about the good players being better than them. It was just a never ending cycle of bitching. You can't bench anyone because then they don't show up for 2 weeks and you need numbers and that creates more drama, you can't bench the good players because you need them to down bosses. You can't bench the bad players because then everyone calls you an elitist because you think they are bad. It ultimately killed the guild in the first week of ToS.

If our GM allowed ML, I would have 100% geared the players that could carry the guild because eventually we would cleanly clear each week and the lower geared players would get all the rewards. We eventually got to that point where everyone was reasonably geared. It just took well over 2 months of inconsistency. If I was using ML I could have explained my reasoning to the less skilled players, maybe they would understand. But with PL you just have to deal with it and for me it was shit.

And before you say, why didn't you help the bad players get better. Trust me, I tried. I spent hours with a BM hunter, trying to explain how to play. Rotations, gear, legendarys, you name it. I had all his logs open and I was trying to find out what was doing wrong. I'd find it explain how to do it right, and then he would muck it up anyway.

Joining a mythic guild was the best decision I ever made in this game for me, no drama, no stress, players play good, no one complains. Sure I had to trial, but at the end of the day it was a small price to pay for clearing two tiers and having a blast.

And for the record, I don't dismiss anyone's story as false, I think their hyperbole is an issue. Maybe they got abused, but that doesn't make every user, an abuser, if that makes sense.

And also for the other record, I don't think my guild will be overall affected by the PL change because we don't play for the guild. Our trial policy will change. If you want to trial you will be expected to hand over pieces that aren't ilvl upgrades. Trial periods will probably be shorter to prevent unwanted trials from soaking to much loot. The guild will use some for of PL/Loot Council for pieces that we can trade. We all want whats best for the guild and we know what we need to do to achieve it.

However with that said. I would still prefer Master Looter. Cuts out unnecessary steps for guilds that aren't in it for the loot and want to kills bosses and speeds up progression because your raid team as a whole is more effective. Also I can't find any flaws in a system that allows a team to allocate resources to a team member with the over all goal of trying to improve the team. The only time I can is when I shift my perspective away from that of a team player and to that of an individual who doesn't care about a team, in a team environment.

[pacotaco]

I'm all for keeping Master Loot if, and only if, each and every single member of a group or raid agrees to it. One dissenter, and no ML.

There. Y'all arguing about the importance of Mythic progression guilds can have your garbage loot system, and everyone else -- including, yes, many Mythic raiders -- can have something better.

And then the dissenter would be kicked. No, thats not an option. It's all or nothing. And we reached the point of "nothing" because ppl were abusing the system.

The original system was intended to be "get this loot, distribute it around all memebers to better yourselves equally". When ppl found they could abuse it and change it to "get all this loot that was intended for all of us, and distribute it around this few ppl" and this was spread enough, the designers certainly though "well, this is not how this system was intended to work, so we're gonna change it".

It's a design flaw. Ppl will always try to optimize work to increase efficiency. It's the work of the designer to design the system properly if ppl are reaching certain goal out of the desired parameters.

The problem is ppl not accepting that the original concept was the intended, and demanding to keep the unintended "statu quo".

[ramayana1423]

My signature image is my link, but I'm certain you'll come up with multiple reasons why my multiple full heroic clears and several mythic clears this expansion don't count.

You didn't kill a single mythic boss in any Legion raid until 2018, and even then those mythic kills were EN and TOV. Stop trying to claim you have any idea how loot distribution matters for high end raiding. This is actually exactly what the OP is talking about. People chiming in with there opinion on why ML is bad who raid at a level where a ML loot system is completely pointless.

[Lilija]

I'm all for keeping Master Loot if, and only if, each and every single member of a group or raid agrees to it. One dissenter, and no ML.

There. Y'all arguing about the importance of Mythic progression guilds can have your garbage loot system, and everyone else -- including, yes, many Mythic raiders -- can have something better.

Oh, that would be a clusterfuck :P I mean that one poor bastard (unless it was annonymous ) But I guess it illustrates well why loot system was never really a personal choice. Guilds in order to work properly are basically dictatorships. It means that 1 particular raider has very little influence on the loot system they are using. So when it comes to choice for the vast majority nothing will change - they will use the loot system enforced by someone regardless of them being for or against it. We might as well put that responsibility on Blizzard and get rid of a lot of passive aggressive behaviors (and now all raiders should think if they have ever made a snarky comments towards someone after a loot decision they didn't like - I mean be honest at least to yourselves... no worries, that doesn't make you a monster... it means you are human )

[araine]

Right off the bat, I've been both a Heroic and Mythic raider, and I'm for this change.

As a retired hardcore raider who did used to run with ML/Loot Council/DKP systems and dealt with trials, up until the end of WoD, and who still pushes Heroic completion today: Changing to PL is better for the health of PUGS and the majority of the community of the game, and will increase enjoyment for a majority of players who might otherwise experience greedy MLers abusing the system, or find the use of ML and Loot Council systems to be a barrier to end game raiding.

Bleeding edge raiders are a minority, and I'm not entitled enough to think that we matter more than the rest of the community.

And here's the thing- for Heroic and Mythic raiders, yes, personal loot is going to restrict who gets pieces early on, and is going to reduce loot favoritism and loot funneling (which is a GOOD THING for world first races, as it restricts all the cheesy alt raid bullshit we've seen for years and years), but ultimately, you're going to be able to trade that shit around anyway.

just give it a couple of weeks and you can trade gear left and right in the raid, and you will be happy the 100% useless item will never drop for your raid you know the class//spec you dont have in your raid that always gets the drop you ALWAYS shard, no more wasted loot with personal loot.

[Karlz0rz]

As long as it's equal for everyone, I don't mind personal loot. You might get unlucky, or loot might be a little unevenly shared, but it makes it more relaxed. Just raid, kill boss, see if you get loot or not. No worry, no DKP, no nothing. Just focus on killing the boss, easy peasy lemon squeezy!
No "whining" because this guy got loot over this guy, since it's already RNG in the game.
So even though I have been a decently high end mythic raider, I am all for this change.

[Lilija]

I get that mate. Both sides need to be honest and exaggeration isn't needed.

And I am being honest when I say I understand the personal loot system well. I used to raid lead a Heroic/Normal only guild that used personal loot. We were fully casual. 156 attempts to kill heroic Gul'dan. More wipes than it took my current guild to kill mythic Aggramar by over 50. We had players of varying skill level and as a raid leader in charge of keeping things in order during raid, it was the most mentally draining thing I have ever done. The good players carried the guild. They complained about the bad players. The bad players they complained about the good players being better than them. It was just a never ending cycle of bitching. You can't bench anyone because then they don't show up for 2 weeks and you need numbers and that creates more drama, you can't bench the good players because you need them to down bosses. You can't bench the bad players because then everyone calls you an elitist because you think they are bad. It ultimately killed the guild in the first week of ToS.

If our GM allowed ML, I would have 100% geared the players that could carry the guild because eventually we would cleanly clear each week and the lower geared players would get all the rewards. We eventually got to that point where everyone was reasonably geared. It just took well over 2 months of inconsistency. If I was using ML I could have explained my reasoning to the less skilled players, maybe they would understand. But with PL you just have to deal with it and for me it was shit.

I have this wild guess that loot system wasn't what killed that guild. Some people simply don't work well together and it takes a lot courage to admit that you don't fit with certain group of people. And people have millions of reasons not to want to admit that.

Joining a mythic guild was the best decision I ever made in this game for me, no drama, no stress, players play good, no one complains. Sure I had to trial, but at the end of the day it was a small price to pay for clearing two tiers and having a blast.

Saying to my old guild in Cata that I am tired to be an officer and I cannot carry the guild on my own and that I wish to play on higher level than the skill level of the roster at that time made possible was also the best decision I've ever made. When I joined my current guild I felt like I went on vacation. Trial was the biggest stress ever (my first raid was Heroic Ragnaros which I have only progressed to 2nd phase with previous guild: when I was told to deal with meteors I was shaking irl) but quite soon after I was so happy that I can just log in to raid and play the game. No solving everyone's issues, no drama, no pressure apart from doing my job. See any similarities?

And also for the other record, I don't think my guild will be overall affected by the PL change because we don't play for the guild. Our trial policy will change. If you want to trial you will be expected to hand over pieces that aren't ilvl upgrades. Trial periods will probably be shorter to prevent unwanted trials from soaking to much loot. The guild will use some for of PL/Loot Council for pieces that we can trade. We all want whats best for the guild and we know what we need to do to achieve it.

Do whatever works for you guys. But I would advise to take it easy and try to cut down on the controlling part. In most cases PL should sort itself out without much interference. I used to be very controlling when it came to guild rules. But eventually I have noticed that too many rules was wrong as not all possible situation could be put into rules. I figured there are some things I cannot make people to do and if something is a problem I need to look for a workaround. And I've also learnt to value trials. Raiding guilds need trials more than they admit (you notice that especially when you start lacking it and that can happen to any guild - except for maybe the very top). Trials not passing or disappearing with loot is a risk worth taking and is not something that will kill a guild. Lack of trials will tho.

However with that said. I would still prefer Master Looter. Cuts out unnecessary steps for guilds that aren't in it for the loot and want to kills bosses and speeds up progression because your raid team as a whole is more effective. Also I can't find any flaws in a system that allows a team to allocate resources to a team member with the over all goal of trying to improve the team. The only time I can is when I shift my perspective away from that of a team player and to that of an individual who doesn't care about a team, in a team environment.

Or maybe guilds could make a leap of faith and just go with PL and see what happens I mean why complicate things? If after longer period of time it seems really bad then you can think about rules. Trying to make PL in some form of ML will indeed be a chore. Is anyone sure it will really be worth it?

[nocturnus]

At first I was going to be combative, but I changed my mind. So I'll ask politely, what does someone's armory have to do with whether someone supports the change or not?

Absolutely nothing, which is why I would ignore such ridiculous requests.

[MisterBigglez]

For those in high end mythic guilds, the chances are that new rules will be enforced where any gear that you can trade and will not use will be given to the council to then re-distribute. This will just add more time to handing out loot and it is very unnecessary when ML did it's job. Just because some guilds are dumb and don't understand the basics of loot priority doesn't mean that the rest of us should have to deal with additional shit layered with more shit just to turn it into something that works well for us now. I don't know if my current guild will do this, but the majority of us in the guild are already generous when it comes to loot they don't need so we might do this.

[Lilija]

Absolutely nothing, which is why I would ignore such ridiculous requests.

And I would go with them seeing how the person requesting is digging their own hole

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For those in high end mythic guilds, the chances are that new rules will be enforced where any gear that you can trade and will not use will be given to the council to then re-distribute. This will just add more time to handing out loot and it is very unnecessary when ML did it's job.

Why would anyone willingly put themselves thru that? What is the point of emulating ML at all cost? I have a feeling that people who initially go that path will drop it eventually cause it's quite mad

[Myta]

You didn't kill a single mythic boss in any Legion raid until 2018, and even then those mythic kills were EN and TOV. Stop trying to claim you have any idea how loot distribution matters for high end raiding. This is actually exactly what the OP is talking about. People chiming in with there opinion on why ML is bad who raid at a level where a ML loot system is completely pointless.

Using this frankly ridiculous logic, someone who bought a sale run of Argus is more 'right' than someone who has been raiding high end content in 2004, but for whatever reason took a break in Legion.

This logic isn't just wrong it's frankly bizarre, lacking any rational argument one is forced to completely strawman the argument.

For one, let's get this out of the way. Just because you have done one boss, one raid, does not in fact make you knowledgeable about system mechanics or community impacts of those mechanics. It only means you are practiced at one thing, and one thing only, killing 12 bosses which your guild has progressed and learned on, and that is it.

Raiding is not the Highlander, one is not exposed to the secrets of the universe upon defeating a boss. I've been raiding the top end content of the game since 2004, I would know if I suddenly learned how to bake a pie, or advanced calculus upon beating a mythic boss.

You are not a genius for doing a raid boss. You are not a genius for getting a high Raider.io score. You are replacing actual understanding of how the game works for superficial, transient numbers to then go onto the forums, say fragantly wrong crap, then claim you are correct because you got a purple pixel one time. You see how insane this sounds? Anyone claiming special knowledge because they did a raid once is proving they know nothing, or they'd argue the argument, and not resort to such dick wagging.

[MisterBigglez]

Why would anyone willingly put themselves thru that? What is the point of emulating ML at all cost? I have a feeling that people who initially go that path will drop it eventually cause it's quite mad

You're probably right, but with the amount of guilds who hate this change, chances are they will try a method like this and see how it goes.

[ramayana1423]

Using this frankly ridiculous logic, someone who bought a sale run of Argus is more 'right' than someone who has been raiding high end content in 2004, but for whatever reason took a break in Legion.

This logic isn't just wrong it's frankly bizarre, lacking any rational argument one is forced to completely strawman the argument.

For one, let's get this out of the way. Just because you have done one boss, one raid, does not in fact make you knowledgeable about system mechanics or community impacts of those mechanics. It only means you are practiced at one thing, and one thing only, killing 12 bosses which your guild has progressed and learned on, and that is it.

Raiding is not the Highlander, one is not exposed to the secrets of the universe upon defeating a boss. I've been raiding the top end content of the game since 2004, I would know if I suddenly learned how to bake a pie, or advanced calculus upon beating a mythic boss.

You are not a genius for doing a raid boss. You are not a genius for getting a high Raider.io score. You are replacing actual understanding of how the game works for superficial, transient numbers to then go onto the forums, say fragantly wrong crap, then claim you are correct because you got a purple pixel one time. You see how insane this sounds? Anyone claiming special knowledge because they did a raid once is proving they know nothing, or they'd argue the argument, and not resort to such dick wagging.

He actually said he pushes heroic and that's it. And yes, if you do nothing but do heroic, your opinion on the merits of ML vs PL are worthless.

[nocturnus]

Using this frankly ridiculous logic, someone who bought a sale run of Argus is more 'right' than someone who has been raiding high end content in 2004, but for whatever reason took a break in Legion.

This logic isn't just wrong it's frankly bizarre, lacking any rational argument one is forced to completely strawman the argument.

For one, let's get this out of the way. Just because you have done one boss, one raid, does not in fact make you knowledgeable about system mechanics or community impacts of those mechanics. It only means you are practiced at one thing, and one thing only, killing 12 bosses which your guild has progressed and learned on, and that is it.

Raiding is not the Highlander, one is not exposed to the secrets of the universe upon defeating a boss. I've been raiding the top end content of the game since 2004, I would know if I suddenly learned how to bake a pie, or advanced calculus upon beating a mythic boss.

You are not a genius for doing a raid boss. You are not a genius for getting a high Raider.io score. You are replacing actual understanding of how the game works for superficial, transient numbers to then go onto the forums, say fragantly wrong crap, then claim you are correct because you got a purple pixel one time. You see how insane this sounds? Anyone claiming special knowledge because they did a raid once is proving they know nothing, or they'd argue the argument, and not resort to such dick wagging.

Mate, you make too much sense for these dimwits to understand you. Whenever someone says you don’t have the right to an opinioin because ‘you didn’t even kill mythic bosses this tier’, just point your finger at them and laugh.

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He actually said he pushes heroic and that's it. And yes, if you do nothing but do heroic, your opinion on the merits of ML vs PL are worthless.

Except for the fact that his opinion is eloquently formulated, while yours has the scientific value of a queef.

[Lilija]

You're probably right, but with the amount of guilds who hate this change, chances are they will try a method like this and see how it goes.

People will do what they want. But I personally would advise any guild to give PL a go without over-complication and start worrying about emulating ML if PL doesn't work for them after long enough period of time (at least 1 content). And then they can used the saved time and energy on more practice on a boss or more theorycrafting or working on a boss tactic.

[kran1um]

The real question is why are people worried about Loot?! You realize this shit will be going on for a year right? Your 5th alts will have all the gear they need... Just like it has been since BC. This 'Personal Loot, Master Loot' squall is lower than how to dress your Pepe list.