So, Arthas wasn't in control of the Lich King in Wotlk?

[LoaTheFett]

arthas certainly was in control and the novel established that not only did he wrestle control from ner'zhul to become the dominate "evil" presence, but let go of his humanity.

i believe blizzard was attempting to create a narrative in the future, in regards to ner'zhul's spirit being active torturing an "echo" of arthas, to come up when and if they decide to tell a new story about bolvar.

[Eazy]

Except in the Death Knight Class Hall Campaign for the Frost Artifact weapon you discover there are still parts of Arthas and Ner'zhul's souls trapped in the remains of Frostmourne which directly contradicts that, the only fragments that actually escape the sword are devout soldiers and paladins.

Yes, the Frostmourne took their souls.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Libram_of_..._Fallen_Prince

Arthas was dominated by Frostmourne even as LK.

"The breaking of Frostmourne unleashed many of the souls trapped within the runeblade. It also freed Arthas from the sword's domination."

We're talking about the Lich King, not the sword. I mean - Helm of Damnation.

Arthas is in full control here, but... he also has memories from the previous owners. Maybe because of that he sees himself as a being fused from two other person? I'm not sure...

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Icecrown_a..._Frozen_Throne

"Ner'zhul could feel their individual spirits and thoughts as if they were his own. The raging cacophony in his mind caused Ner'zhul to grow even more powerful, as if their spirits provided him with much-needed nourishment. He found it was child's play to control the zombies' actions and steer them to whatever end he wished."

But Blizzard clearified it(and it's a fact/canon) - Arthas was in the full control.

Just going to leave it here(old quote from @Aquamonkey who decided to binds up a few things about Arthas/Ner'Zhul dillema with direct quotes from Blizzard/canon sources):

[Deleted]

I'd just not worry about it and see what happens.

Illidan sure as hell wasn't what he was in Legion back in TBC, what Arthas's situation was in WOTLK may well not be the same when Blizzard next decide to touch on it, it certainly didn't look that way in the frost artifact quest. They'll bend or change whatever they want if they think they can do something they find more interesting.

[Houle]

Yes, the Frostmourne took their souls.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Libram_of_..._Fallen_Prince

Arthas was dominated by Frostmourne even as LK.



We're talking about the Lich King, not the sword. I mean - Helm of Damnation.

Arthas is in full control here, but... he also has memories from the previous owners. Maybe because of that he sees himself as a being fused from two other person? I'm not sure...

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Icecrown_a..._Frozen_Throne



But Blizzard clearified it(and it's a fact/canon) - Arthas was in the full control.

Just going to leave it here(old quote from @Aquamonkey who decided to binds up a few things about Arthas/Ner'Zhul dillema with direct quotes from Blizzard/canon sources):

Aaaaand all of this has been, at least partly, retconned, with Chronicles 3 confirming that at least a small part of Ner'zhul survived in the back of the Lks consciousness as a "wail of sorrow". That+the fact the the echo of Ner'zhul wasn't killed together with the echo of Arthas, gives Blizz enough opportunities, should they ever want to bring him back.

[FelPlague]

This.

In the book you can read that there was ONLY ARTHAS, and that's ultimate fact.

sadly nerzhul is not that stupid.
with the "i was once a shaman" comment, the frost artifact quest line, and the "is it over" with him seeming to regret what happened aswell as the "if not for arthas holding back the undead would have swept over all of azeroth"
it is pretty much confirmed, specially with chronicle 3, that nerzhul tricked him, into thinking that his spirit was gone, that he went into hiding within arthas' mind and began to take control, playing off his ego till he eventually took near full control, arthas himself only having enough control to keep some things that kept near, and holding back from destroying us all.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, the Frostmourne took their souls.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Libram_of_..._Fallen_Prince

Arthas was dominated by Frostmourne even as LK.



We're talking about the Lich King, not the sword. I mean - Helm of Damnation.

Arthas is in full control here, but... he also has memories from the previous owners. Maybe because of that he sees himself as a being fused from two other person? I'm not sure...

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Icecrown_a..._Frozen_Throne



But Blizzard clearified it(and it's a fact/canon) - Arthas was in the full control.

Just going to leave it here(old quote from @Aquamonkey who decided to binds up a few things about Arthas/Ner'Zhul dillema with direct quotes from Blizzard/canon sources):

nice evidance, but there was just as much pushing against that, also chroincle 3 right out says that was all wrong.

so when you have 50/50 saying yes or no, then a new thing that is suppsoed to be the "THIS IS 100% TRUE" comes out, yeah...

[Aquamonkey]

Seeing that Ner'zhul showed up in the shards.

Those were echos, not actually them.

Bolvar voice change when the helm gets on to the Lich King voice.

Bolvar's voice changed when the Frozen Throne started covering him. His voice was normal after he put on the helm.

[Eazy]

That+the fact the the echo of Ner'zhul wasn't killed together with the echo of Arthas,

But they're just echo, nothing more. Echos aren't souls.

Aaaaand all of this has been, at least partly, retconned, with Chronicles 3 confirming that at least a small part of Ner'zhul survived in the back of the Lks consciousness

Can you show me the source of that? I mean "Chronicles 3", yeah, but unfortunately I don't have it. If you could make a photo or give a screenshot or something, I'd be glad.

it is pretty much confirmed, specially with chronicle 3, that nerzhul tricked him, into thinking that his spirit was gone, that he went into hiding within arthas' mind and began to take control, playing off his ego till he eventually took near full control, arthas himself only having enough control to keep some things that kept near, and holding back from destroying us all.

Same as above - I'd like to see source ^

sadly nerzhul is not that stupid.
with the "i was once a shaman" comment, the frost artifact quest line, and the "is it over" with him seeming to regret what happened aswell as the "if not for arthas holding back the undead would have swept over all of azeroth"

As I said, their memories did collide. So he could think that he was Ner'zhul/Arthas/Bolvar(now). Schizophrenic disorders.

That "It is over" - as I said, he was probably referring to his reign(not about his curse, or not like he's free at last or something), because his father says "no king rules forever my son".

so when you have 50/50 saying yes or no, then a new thing that is suppsoed to be the "THIS IS 100% TRUE" comes out, yeah...

So it seems that my informations may be kinda outdated...

[FelPlague]

But they're just echo, nothing more. Echos aren't souls.



Can you show me the source of that? I mean "Chronicles 3", yeah, but unfortunately I don't have it. If you could make a photo or give a screenshot or something, I'd be glad.



Same as above - I'd like to see source ^



As I said, their memories did collide. So he could think that he was Ner'zhul/Arthas/Bolvar(now). Schizophrenic disorders.

That "It is over" - as I said, he was probably referring to his reign(not about his curse, or not like he's free at last or something), because his father says "no king rules forever my son".



So it seems that my informations may be kinda outdated...

Over time, Arthas concluded that sharing the Lich King’s might with Ner’zhul would only lead to disagreements, confusion, and disorder. Only a single mind would wield this power with precision and harness its true potential. Arthas tried to overwhelm the orc’s spirit and Ner’zhul was nearly destroyed. Arthas sat on the Frozen Throne, satisfied that he was completely in control of the Lich King’s strength – the sole ruler of the Scourge. After a few years, he realized that he was wrong. Deep within his mind, he could feel Ner’zhul struggling to wake up, The two beings went to war for permanent control of the Lich King’s power.

Ner’zhul had the initial advantage, for he had lived with this power far longer than Arthas had. But Arthas was prideful, stubborn, and determined. He found the single weakness in Ner’zhul’s soul: the lingering guilt over his unwitting role in enslaving the orc race to the Burning Legion. Arthas had long since buried his own guilt. The murder of his father, the innocents he had slaughtered, and all the rest of his betrayals – he no longer felt an ounce of sorrow about any of it. Through force of will, Arthas clawed his way through the orc’s mental wounds and tore apart Ner’zhul’s mind. As the Lich King’s body sat motionless on the Frozen Throne, Arthas took complete control. The process was agonizing for Ner’zhul. Not only did Arthas drown him in his guilt but he deliberately snapped the bonds of his sanity, causing the orc to spiral further and further into despair. When the final battle was through, nothing remained of Ner’zhul but a wail of sorrow in the back of the Lich King’s consciousness. Arthas found it easy to ignore.

http://www.wowhead.com/news=283156/t...-with-nobbel87
he did have the most control, nerzhul was still there but he has much less control then he did before, but he was still there, influencing the lich king, atleast somewhat.

[shadycharacter1]

it was confirmed in the latest chronicles volume, arthas took over ner'zhul and became the sole ruler of the scourge

[Zeraiya]

I generally agree with this thread. Just a side note - I don't think Ner'zhul could ever truly be gone, despite the initial book saying he was 'destroyed'. Because if Ner'zhul could be destroyed, then after Arthas' death there would be no Lich King. Because there would be no force that could control the Scourge because it was bound to the Lich King's rule.

Bolvar putting on the helmet doesn't make him the Lich King. It's the spirit of Ner'zhul that makes you the Lich King. Arthas dominated Ner'zhul and controlled that spiritual power of controlling the Scourge.

If Ner'zhul could be destroyed, then the Scourge would have run rampant the second Arthas died because there would be no force left to control it. So clearly fragments of Ner'zhul exist, in whatever state they may be in.

And with that in mind, I think it's possible to consider that 'Arthas' was still under the influence of Ner'zhul even if he completely dominated him. The spirit of Ner'zhul itself could have been influencing his decisions. But I think this largely fits in with what people have said - at the end of the day, how do we decide what could be spiritual manipulation or increasing the pre-existing darkside of Arthas. They could be the same thing, because the spiritual energy of Ner'zhul could just warp Arthas to the point that he is lost.

[Remus88Romulus]

For the LAST TIME. It was ARTHAS. When he picked up Frostmourne he got twisted. A Evil Arthas was born. Frostmourne and the Lich King's helmet & armor were made by the Nathrezim, the Dreadlords. They corrupt everything they touch or create.

So anyway. Arthas consumes/shatters/destroyes Ner'zhul and assumes full control of the mantle of the Lich King. Evil Arthas that is. He killed or removed his good side in the dream after the merger.

Read Arthas - Rise of the Lich King by Christie Golden. It's a good book.

[Kagthul]

I generally agree with this thread. Just a side note - I don't think Ner'zhul could ever truly be gone, despite the initial book saying he was 'destroyed'. Because if Ner'zhul could be destroyed, then after Arthas' death there would be no Lich King. Because there would be no force that could control the Scourge because it was bound to the Lich King's rule.

Bolvar putting on the helmet doesn't make him the Lich King. It's the spirit of Ner'zhul that makes you the Lich King. Arthas dominated Ner'zhul and controlled that spiritual power of controlling the Scourge.

If Ner'zhul could be destroyed, then the Scourge would have run rampant the second Arthas died because there would be no force left to control it. So clearly fragments of Ner'zhul exist, in whatever state they may be in.

And with that in mind, I think it's possible to consider that 'Arthas' was still under the influence of Ner'zhul even if he completely dominated him. The spirit of Ner'zhul itself could have been influencing his decisions. But I think this largely fits in with what people have said - at the end of the day, how do we decide what could be spiritual manipulation or increasing the pre-existing darkside of Arthas. They could be the same thing, because the spiritual energy of Ner'zhul could just warp Arthas to the point that he is lost.

Every single bit of this is wrong. Not only do in-game events disprove this, Blizzard themselves, through novels and Chronicle, have outright stated that your belief is wrong.

Ner’zul is not required for there to be a Lich King. The power of the Lich King was derived from the Helm, always. The Dreadlords needed a mind to control it, and used Ner’zul as a punishment for his attempted betrayal (as directed by Kil’jaeden).

When Arthas put on the Helm, Ner’zul tried to take over Arthas’ body and use it as his own (as he no longer had one), however, Arthas proved stronger and Became the Lich King, destroying Ner’zul and reducing the remnants of his spirit to an easily-ignored wail in the background.

When Bolvar put on the Helm, he became the Lich King, full stop. Ner’zul had already been destroyed, and Arthas had just died, so there was no contest between the old Lich King and new (as Arthas had never been a spirit confined to the Helm).

Bolvar is the Lich King. Period.

And everyone in this thread who is like “it would explain Bolvar’s madness if Ner’zul blah blah blah.”

Bolvar isnt mad. Hes the Lich King. Becoming a being like that changes you, even if you were a good guy prior. As the Deathlord, for instance, you talk about how becoming a Death Knight strips you of a lot of your mortal virtues. You cant feel love, or pity (except as a form of contempt), mercy, or be benevolence. Youre a damned machine of death, even if you were a paragon of goodness in life. What it doesnt strip you of is a sense of duty, honor (though twisted), or loyalty.

As a DK, you feel no compunction about slaughtering innocents. None. You cant even feel remorse. No longer capable, no matter how much you wish it was otherwise. Thats why Darion, and now the Deathlord, (And Bolvar, throug the Deathlord) focus the Death Knights of the Ebon Blade on fighting to save Azeroth... because they can take the actions that other heroes cannot. They are already completely damned and beyond redemption, and they know it.

Bolvar is the same, only magnified. Hes still got his sense of duty, his sense of honor, however twisted (he lets Mages retrieve Felo’melorn, but will not aid them and warns that if they fall, he will add them to the Scourge), and his desire to hold to his word and become the Jailor of the Damned. But he knows full well that by accepting the mantle of Lich King that he has utterly Damned himself. It stripped away his pity, his remorse, his ability to love - all of it. Hes not mad... and hes not fully evil (any more than the Ebon Blade). But hes Damned, he knkws it, and he sees it as his duty to both contain the Scourge AND to prepare them as a weapon of last resort to save Azeroth. (During the DK campaign, he makes it clear that he will unleash the Scourge and Scour Azeroth clean of all life - demonic and mortal - if you fail against the Legion). Better Azeroth be a realm of the Undead than corrupted by the Void or Taken by Sargeras, in his eyes.

[Houle]

Every single bit of this is wrong. Not only do in-game events disprove this, Blizzard themselves, through novels and Chronicle, have outright stated that your belief is wrong.

Ner’zul is not required for there to be a Lich King. The power of the Lich King was derived from the Helm, always. The Dreadlords needed a mind to control it, and used Ner’zul as a punishment for his attempted betrayal (as directed by Kil’jaeden).

When Arthas put on the Helm, Ner’zul tried to take over Arthas’ body and use it as his own (as he no longer had one), however, Arthas proved stronger and Became the Lich King, destroying Ner’zul and reducing the remnants of his spirit to an easily-ignored wail in the background.

When Bolvar put on the Helm, he became the Lich King, full stop. Ner’zul had already been destroyed, and Arthas had just died, so there was no contest between the old Lich King and new (as Arthas had never been a spirit confined to the Helm).

Bolvar is the Lich King. Period.

And everyone in this thread who is like “it would explain Bolvar’s madness if Ner’zul blah blah blah.”

Bolvar isnt mad. Hes the Lich King. Becoming a being like that changes you, even if you were a good guy prior. As the Deathlord, for instance, you talk about how becoming a Death Knight strips you of a lot of your mortal virtues. You cant feel love, or pity (except as a form of contempt), mercy, or be benevolence. Youre a damned machine of death, even if you were a paragon of goodness in life. What it doesnt strip you of is a sense of duty, honor (though twisted), or loyalty.

As a DK, you feel no compunction about slaughtering innocents. None. You cant even feel remorse. No longer capable, no matter how much you wish it was otherwise. Thats why Darion, and now the Deathlord, (And Bolvar, throug the Deathlord) focus the Death Knights of the Ebon Blade on fighting to save Azeroth... because they can take the actions that other heroes cannot. They are already completely damned and beyond redemption, and they know it.

Bolvar is the same, only magnified. Hes still got his sense of duty, his sense of honor, however twisted (he lets Mages retrieve Felo’melorn, but will not aid them and warns that if they fall, he will add them to the Scourge), and his desire to hold to his word and become the Jailor of the Damned. But he knows full well that by accepting the mantle of Lich King that he has utterly Damned himself. It stripped away his pity, his remorse, his ability to love - all of it. Hes not mad... and hes not fully evil (any more than the Ebon Blade). But hes Damned, he knkws it, and he sees it as his duty to both contain the Scourge AND to prepare them as a weapon of last resort to save Azeroth. (During the DK campaign, he makes it clear that he will unleash the Scourge and Scour Azeroth clean of all life - demonic and mortal - if you fail against the Legion). Better Azeroth be a realm of the Undead than corrupted by the Void or Taken by Sargeras, in his eyes.

Dude, half of what you just said is headcanon. It was NEVER confirmed by anyone that simply wearing the helmet "changes" you, and it was never even remotely confirmed that Bolvar still cares about his honor or whatever. Sure, if Blizz wants it that way, they can say that in the future.
But if Blizz wants Ner'zhul to come back and be responsible, they can also do that in the future. It's literally open to speculation right now, because, as always, Blizz wants to have as many possibilities as they can for whatever they feel might be "cool" in the next addon.
So stop spouting headcanon.

[Kagthul]

Dude, half of what you just said is headcanon.

Actually, NONE of it is headcanon. It's all in-game, in the Arthas novel, or in Chronicle. Every. Last. Bit. That you're too illiterate to read it, is not my problem.

It was NEVER confirmed by anyone that simply wearing the helmet "changes" you,

Chronicle Vol 3, Bolvar says it before he puts it on, Arthas mentions it in the novel. Try again. Oh, and several of the DK NPCs talk about what becoming an Undead like a Death Knight or more powerful undead does to you.

and it was never even remotely confirmed that Bolvar still cares about his honor or whatever.

Actually, due to his actions and statements in Legion, we can determine that.

Sure, if Blizz wants it that way, they can say that in the future.
But if Blizz wants Ner'zhul to come back and be responsible, they can also do that in the future.

Blizz CAN do whatever it wants, but doing so would be an outright retcon, as the current state of things is that Ner'zhul is utterly destroyed (Arthas novel, Chronicle 3).

It's literally open to speculation right now, because, as always, Blizz wants to have as many possibilities as they can for whatever they feel might be "cool" in the next addon.
So stop spouting headcanon.

I never started.

Sorry that my the truth of the matter doesn't fit YOUR headcanon.

[Deleted]

Lich king at one point says "I was a shaman once" in Howling Fjord
There's more evidence that Ner'zhul was in control then Arthas.

[Radaney]

Pretty sure the Lich King is a separate entity.

There is no Arthas, there is the Lich King.

There is no Ner'zhul, there is the Lich King.

There is no Bolvar, there is the Lich King.

The previous three all merged into this one being, Bolvar is gone. He's now the Lich King. An amalgamation of Burning Legion/Nathrezim creation, Corrupted Arthas via Frostmourne, Tortured Ner'zhul and roasted Bolvar.

As soon as you don the helm you become merged with the Lich King and thus become part of, and the Lich King.

The Death Knight class order campaign pretty much shows that Pre Bolvar Lich King and Bolver Lich King are almost exactly the same, just now no longer possess' Frostmourne and is well aware he can be beaten easier than before. But he's still basically a giant asshole.

[Octavius]

Everything said that he was in control, including Chronicle 3 (as I pointed out in my post), though. Twisted, maybe, but fully in control nonetheless. No one else, no other force, was making decision for him.

There's a ? about the whole arthas arc, in truth. Yogg-saron. We know there was some interference, and we can see saronite literally everywhere. Could be some serious influence there.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

There's a ? about the whole arthas arc, in truth. Yogg-saron. We know there was some interference, and we can see saronite literally everywhere. Could be some serious influence there.

If that's still a thing(We know Blizzard wanted to present such influence more ingame but didn't).

[Dannihilate]

That's not true, Arthas was in full control of the Lich King. This was the case before, and after Chronicle 3 as well. As of Chronicle, the merge thing was still there, and Arthas took control was still a thing. It changed the story a bit in the sense that, unlike what happened in the original merge in described in "Rise of the Lich King", Ner'zhul's spirit wasn't gone - just almost. Few years later, the orc's spirit tried to wage war with Arthas' later for domination (this is new), but even though Ner'zhul had upperhand at first, Arthas eventually played with Ner'zhul's guilt and triumphed, tore apart Ner'zhul's mind and snapped the orc's sanity in process. After the battle was over, "nothing remained of Ner'zhul but a wail of sorrow in the back of the Lich King's conciousness. Arthas found it easy to ignore" - Chronicle 3.

However, upon becoming the Lich King, Arthas's mind was twisted. He was in full control, but he was a notch darker and more twisted than he was when he was alive. Case in point, the plan to turn us all into the Scourge was the result of this: he was just, in his twisted way, trying to create a world without wars, without injustice and mortal flaws. When we defeated Arthas, the corruption of the Frozen Throne faded, and he had to face his crimes. That's why he uttered what he did in the final moment. It was his mind all along, he just passed his edgy phase (in a sense).

I absolutely hate that Blizz is giving this morally-grey BS treatment to literally all of their villains now. The Lich King that indiscriminately murders and seems to find glee in torturing people? Yeah, turns out he isn't all that bad, he just wants to save the world his way. You know Illidan who did all this awful nasty stuff for more and more power? Yeah, same deal! Just wanted to save Azeroth the way he thought was best. And finally, the biggest bad in the WoW universe, Sargeras? Crazy coincidence but it turns out he's not so bad either! He just wants to save the entire universe from an even bigger threat that you didn't know about, and his methods just seemed cruel to us lowly pleebs. /eyeroll

This doesn't make for good writing, Blizz! It's not "deep", it's just boring. You can have bad guys who are just bad guys. The Lich King, the lord of death and darkness and despair doesn't need a big overarching reason to create his undead army. He can just be.

[Varodoc]

I absolutely hate that Blizz is giving this morally-grey BS treatment to literally all of their villains now. The Lich King that indiscriminately murders and seems to find glee in torturing people? Yeah, turns out he isn't all that bad, he just wants to save the world his way. You know Illidan who did all this awful nasty stuff for more and more power? Yeah, same deal! Just wanted to save Azeroth the way he thought was best. And finally, the biggest bad in the WoW universe, Sargeras? Crazy coincidence but it turns out he's not so bad either! He just wants to save the entire universe from an even bigger threat that you didn't know about, and his methods just seemed cruel to us lowly pleebs. /eyeroll

This doesn't make for good writing, Blizz! It's not "deep", it's just boring. You can have bad guys who are just bad guys. The Lich King, the lord of death and darkness and despair doesn't need a big overarching reason to create his undead army. He can just be.

Yes. At least the Void Lords and Old Gods are still chaotic evil. They don't want order, justice, or peace, they just want to devour all. I am looking forward to their rise.