SPOILERS!! Battle for Lordaeron/Sylvanas Discussion

[sighy]

Yes, Tywin Lannister, the one who sentenced his own son to death, only to end up dead by his hands. I would actually love it if she went down the same way, killed by Koltira as revenge for what she did to him. (Game of Thrones spoiler tag.)

Admittedly that was set up by littlefinger and Olenna Tyrell, while Sylvanas doesn't have any of the downfall mechanics Tywin had.

[Lothaeryn]

Horde fucked over yet again as the bad guys.

No black or white good/evil factions was what made Warcraft unique.

Blizzard have thrown that away now and they don't give a fuck what most players think but hey, Horde bias right?

I'd say it more has to do with Blizzard trying to write an interesting and compelling story for the Horde all the while not really giving much thought to Alliance development aside from the most basic requirements, that's where the 'Horde Bias' comes from for Alliance players. The greatest irony being they fail at both fronts.

However, I agree that I am really disliking the 'Horde is evil' angle every time there's a faction conflict involved. I want some moral grey for the Alliance's actions as well, but it never materializes. And i don't see much honorable actions from the Horde's narrative like we did in the past either.

[Aeula]

I am curious about the math there actually. How many lives have been lost because of Saurfang's lust for honour vs the lives lost to the mad queen blighting her own soldiers?

Barring Malfurion possibly taking the lives of horde after Saurfang escorts him to safety (no one knows what happens after that, he is not in the story after this event), i'm pretty sure his count is far lower than the lives lost to the friendly fire blight.

The blight killed those who were wounded on the battlefield. There wasn’t time to save them and they were bleeding out anyway.

[vondevon]

So. I make it pretty well known that I hate Sylvanas with a passion. She's literally Arthas 2.0 and nobody seems to care because she's undead fap material for internet dweebs.

Guess I'll get some coffee and check back to see how many come to her defense with ridiculous reasons as to why she's a great leader.

Honestly, screw you. First of all, you need look no further than Blizzards art team to see that EVERY female character in EVERY Blizzard game gets the most UNREALISTIC and UNNECESSARY body design (Widowmaker of OW looks like her spine is fucking broken so her ass in a permanent bent-over-the-bed pose). So if you want to start talking about her look, players have nothing to do with that, and I would love it if Blizzard would knock it off with the porno-inspired female models. Nonetheless, that has no bearing on my appreciation for her character as I've liked her since she was just a ghost.

Second, you clearly don't have a very deep frame of reference for who this character is, and you're basing your opinion of her on your limited experience with her, so it's no wonder why you struggle to see what other fans enjoy about her. I suggest that rather than making garbage call-out posts for fictional characters, you go back and play some of the older games or look up a little more about her story. I'm not saying she is the best or most defined character in the entire franchise, but she has been around for a long time, been deeply involved in some of the most defining moments, and has a detailed character arch.

Lastly, I don't think it's really fair to apply standards of honor, nobility, and morality from real-life to a fictional character who's very existence defies most norms. Heck, you can't even fairly apply standards of Orcs, or wizards, or some other fantasy element, to this very different fantasy element. Orcs are not Undead, their existence is completely different. Sylvanas was an immortal elf, she failed the most sacred duty imaginable (defending the Sunwell) and became an immortal disembodied banshee slave to the human scum who killed her. She brought together an army of damned souls, men & women who had been equally defiled and stripped of everything they loved in life, and gave them a single unifying purpose - to kill the bastard Arthas. Then she fking succeeded. And then rather than f-ing off like she planned to do, she realized she still owed it to her new people to continue giving them purpose. So she fking did that, and set about trying to carve a space in the world of the living for her and the damned who follow her. Time and again she has dealt with her people being shunned, used as meaningless fodder, and hated and hunted by nearly every other race. She and she alone sees her people as worthy of their existence, and it's precisely why she risks everything to find a way to spare them from the eternal darkness that awaits them. The central tenant of Undead society is Free Will, but specifically the Will to exist, the Will to act, the Will to carve a path for yourself. That's why their racial is 'Will of the Forsaken'. No Undead embodies that more than Sylvanas.

[Belisaurio]

Yet no one called him a meme until BfA's alpha hit. Well, except for the cleave thing, but he had a lot more beyond that.

Wowowowo. That's really really wrong!!!
He was the king of memes. His lore wasn't really well made back at vanilla, people knew about Saurfang for two things:
1-Dragon buffs.
2-Cleaving Aliance (a 30ft knockback from charge and an OP selfbuff ).

Aliance had a counterpart too (Field Marshal Afrasiabi), but everyone ignored him.
Because of that, people started making memes about him (becoming THE Chuck Norris of WOW) Like thecommunity facts about Saurfang.
That was Saurfang until Blizzard started creating lore (Wrath or so), so, it was the king of memes, not even gnomes could do anything to take that title. And even Blizzard made some memes about him:
"Kingslayer Orkus: Did I ever tell you about the time I met Varok Saurfang? I asked him to sign my massive pectoral muscles. He backhanded me instead, which is why I sometimes forget things now. It was totally worth it"

So again, Saurfang was a MEME until Blizzard started fleshing him. Some years later, he becomes another type of meme.

[Highwhale]

I like Sylvanas threads.

It's always a bunch of nerds taking horrible lore way too seriously. And the Sylvanas bashing outnumbers the pro Sylvanas posts 10 to one, yet the Sylvanas faction is potrayed as annoying.

Yikes from all sides.

Guy with Corgi avatar and Corgi on rainbow signature tell people grow up and act like adults. LMAO.

Sylvanas planned the battle for Lordaeron to be a trap. It was a suicide mission. It was expected.

Since it's a spoiler thread, I won't bother to put spoiler tags, so read at your own risk:

She blows the hell out of Lordaeron. She literally blows it up. She wanted to kill as many Alliance troops -- more particularly the king and all his lieutenant -- in one blow. That was the point. And I suspect that the horde minions following her knew exactly what would happen.

So no, she's not evil. She's clever.

Except even High Ranking General like Saurfang didn't knew about it until he saw the trap itself. What horde minions following her knew exactly what would happen you talking about?

[sighy]

Yet no one called him a meme until BfA's alpha hit. Well, except for the cleave thing, but he had a lot more beyond that.

As for the Lannisters, Cersei is simply a far more ruthless and unstable version of Tywin, a plot point from the series if you recall. I'd agree with Tywin being closer if Sylvanas was, you know, mentally stable.

I I would say that Sylvanas is mentally stable. And i generally associate Cercei, with teh character who thinks they are a better schemer thant ehy actually are resulting in their every plot backfiring horribly.

I would say that her strategy was sound and comparable to strategies employed in real life. Matter of fact is that, if you have to alter strategy based on a foot soldier getting hurt/killed that person has no business being on the battlefield. My only real question at that point was "why not rain the stuff down on them before sending your soldiers to face alliance? It would be more effective to bombard the Alliance, then send out the azerite mashine and properly equipped soldiers, while bombarding the alliance back line.

[derpkitteh]

No, at this point they're means to develop Anduin into the God Emperor.

For instance, his 4v1 against Saurfang and its aftermath show how good and honourable Anduin is. He spares Saurfang, he even pats the orc on his shoulder and tells him that they'll discuss honour when Varok recovers from his wounds.

Him stabbing Horde's azerite war machine to death was a very hilarious way of showing his growth as a warrior/fighter.

eh, that cinematic with the war machine just shows he was fighting alongside his soldiers. it was a massive group effort to kill it, and he landed the final blow by shooting some light into it through shalamayne(which, shalamayne's power itself is probably boosting him as well. it is an artifact, similar to those wielded by the class leaders.)

his behavior with saurfang is typical of his behavior since he started getting more development in the shattering and all through mop. so it just seems like consistency to me.

it's genn and sylvanas' personal conflict that drives the faction war. genn reignites it in legion, and now it carries on into bfa.

[Pheraz]

The "arguments" of the people defending sylvanas acts as nothing more than boring, plain evil never fail to spice up my evening.

[Broken Fox]

Yes, Tywin Lannister, the one who sentenced his own son to death, only to end up dead by his hands. I would actually love it if she went down the same way, killed by Koltira as revenge for what she did to him. (Game of Thrones spoiler tag.)

Except no one gives a shit about Koltira

[ello]

Not to be snide, but there's this thing called "context".

Sylvanas didn't use the blight for shits and giggles. It was a last resort.

The Alliance clearly got the jump on the Horde in this scenario. It was stated that the Horde was outnumbered and wasn't given much time to prepare. The Horde lost Brill before they could even form a resistance. The Alliance brought an Athenian fleet, the Horde got in a token force using portals.

The Horde tried to fight with conventional means - the lost. They tried to fight with an Azerite War Machine - they lost. After exhausting all other options, Sylvanas used the blight in a last ditch effort to drive back an invading army that outnumbered them. And it worked. The Alliance was taking heavy damange and was pushed back to Brill, if not for that ridiciulous ex machina the Horde would've won that day.

Given the context of the battle, those soldiers were likely to die anyway. So, if you have the option of sacrificing a few troops to win the greater objective - saving more lives in the long run - is it wrong to take it? Is it "evil" if the alternative is "Let the Horde roll over and die"?

And that's clearly the portrayal Blizz is going for based on Ion's comments:


"there are a lot of harsh things that happen in war in general. When groups are fighting for survival, at the end of the day, they resort to desperate measures. When the choice becomes between that and extinction."



The situation that Sylvanas was in at Siege of Lordaeron was nearly identical to the situation Darion Mograine and Tirion were in at the Argent Vanguard back in Wrath. The Argent's were being overrun by scourge and in danger of being pushed out of Icecrown completely. They had the option of firing their artillery on the Scourge but it would've also killed Argents who were trapped as well. Darion told Tirion to fire anyways, lest they lose their only base in Icecrown.

Darion wasn't "evil" for advocating this tactic. He just had a more cutthroat approach to war. The Argents were getting smashed by the Scourge and the offensive was on the verge of defeat. The only reason they managed to win without resorting to Darion's tactics is because the player character shows up at exactly the right moment and magically fixes everything. Siege of Lordaeron shows us what happens when the PC can't magically solve the problem.

Another example would be the Xe'ra questline. In one of the quests, you play as Illidan and kill some of your allies in order to empower yourself and defeat the legion. Was that evil? OR was it just "You gotta crack a few eggs if you want to make an omelete"? Let's ask Saurfang's brother how he feels about it:

"You do what needs to be done. It is a admirable quality."

-Broxigar talking to Illidan

It's also worth noting that Sylvanas has always been like this. This is Sylvanas as Ranger-General. Y'know, the same Sylvanas that literally fought to defend her people until her dying breath.

"They merely need to delay them as we fortify the Sunwell's defense," she answered, her tone measured.

"They will die!"

"They are arrows in the quiver," Sylvanas said. "They must be spent if we are to win this."

She was brash. Empty? No—a fighter. She had a warrior's heart.

-Edge of Night


Finally, a quote from Art of War because I think it's relevant:

There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general:

(1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;

(2) cowardice, which leads to capture;

(3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;

(4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;

(5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.

...

Really, if you're going to be complaining about Sylvanas in BfA I would focus on why we are going to war/targetting Teldrassil in the first place. Rather than the time she makes a desperate call in a desperate situation.

[TheRagebear]

Except even High Ranking General like Saurfang didn't knew about it until he saw the trap itself. What horde minions following her knew exactly what would happen you talking about?

Probably the undead ones. This is the hour of the forsaken (again.)

It's a good thing Varimthras is dead or he might have some choice words for her.

[Broken Fox]

Koltira's my dude.

Alright, you and 3 other people give a shit about Koltira

[ello]

So. I make it pretty well known that I hate Sylvanas with a passion. She's literally Arthas 2.0 and nobody seems to care because she's undead fap material for internet dweebs.

The fact that you (and so many others) opt to reduce Sylvanas's character to a sex object is an incredibly lazy way to pretend that she has no legitimate appeal as a character, and frankly, the fact that you do it so readily speaks poorly of you.

[united]

The fact that you (and so many others) opt to reduce Sylvanas's character to a sex object is an incredibly lazy way to pretend that she has no legitimate appeal as a character, and frankly, the fact that you do it so readily speaks poorly of you.

Exactly. The second someone says that I can’t ever take them seriously.

[baskev]

All I wanna know is why the spirits told Vol'jin to promote her of all people.

who says they where good Loa...or Loa at all??

[baskev]

We know Sylvanas didn't pull any tricks because she didn't want to be the Warchief (we know this from her perspective in the new book). Doesn't mean no one else pulled strings though.

I know that. Nowhere in my very short sentence did it say so. Loa are not under her control last time i checked :S:S

And for the second part...that is what i am saying.

[Biotec]

All I wanna know is why the spirits told Vol'jin to promote her of all people.

My guess: Bwonsamdi was playing they long game.

His sanctum is in Nazmir, he knows pretty much everything that is going on, and he has deals with Vol'jin. He probably knew the conflict between the Alliance and Horde would drive the former to kidnapping Talanji and Zul, and the latter to rescuing them and heading to Zandalar.

Upon arriving, we save numerous Loa, kill a couple others and give them to Bwon, and dispatch a ton of rebellious Zandalari including Zul. Then the Zandalari join the Horde, which means many souls sent to him as they battle the Alliance. We both save Bwonsamdi and essentially give him the things he desires.

He is also able to repay Vol'jin and turn him into a Loa.

[baskev]

I was trying to speculate with you as to who could be pulling the strings.

aha

Then yeah...

Who?!?! i would guess the old god very near the big ass sword.

[Linkedblade]

So. I make it pretty well known that I hate Sylvanas with a passion. She's literally Arthas 2.0 and nobody seems to care because she's undead fap material for internet dweebs. ANYWAY during the battle she Plague Bombs both the Alliance AND HER OWN SOLDIERS. Her own soldiers die to the plague showing her true colors as a leader. She doesn't care for the Horde or its people, they are all 'arrows in her quiver' and she cares not about them.

Anyone else notice this is literally a repeat of the Wrath Gate except this time around it wasn't a rebel faction doing the killing it was Sylvanas herself as Warchief. DISGUSTING!

And to all who are going to defend her saying 'they were going to die anyway' and 'war is hell' that's 100% bs. You are ordered to save as many as you can by Saurfang, (who actually cares about his soldiers) proving they weren't all about to die.

On top of killing her own people, she resurrects them and forces them to fight. Please Ion, explain to me how this is a 'moral grey area.'

There is a difference between sending your soldiers into a situation knowing they will die in order to buy time but this? This goes beyond that. They weren't sacrificed for the 'greater good', they were murdered by their own ruler and then brought back to fight for the same person who killed them. How are the Arthas/Wrath Gate parallels not obvious? How are the Horde leaders still following her after watching that? It's disgusting to see the Horde going through this AGAIN yet this time it's far worse and nobody (aside from Saurfang) does/says something about it. It literally blows my mind that players defend her actions and fan boy over her because she's got an 'deep' (emo) backstory.

Anyway. End of angry rant. Guess I'll get some coffee and check back to see how many come to her defense with ridiculous reasons as to why she's a great leader.

She plague bombed the wounded. Either way they were still fighting for the Horde. And if she hadn't made that call they could have been completely defeated